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Necralisk Rep Tokens


Venyxos

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I actually dig the token system in Necralisk (not saying anything on the economics or timers on them - just the overall system)... It took some figuring out but clicked pretty quickly and I think Fortuna and Cetus could benefit from their own versions.

 

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I would very much not. It was enough of a pain waiting for Medical debt bonds to come on sale.

The token system is just arbitrary extra steps to get what we were already going to get, pumping the breaks in a system that already has daily timegates (a rep-per-day cap) and makes players who already complain about fishing and conservation complain even louder. And frankly, with just how much conservation Son makes you do, I don't disagree with the complainers this time, it gets way too annoying

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Fortuna already has Ticker who has a very similar service, you pay random materials and Credits, and you get Debt-Bonds that can be traded back for Standing.

I'd maybe enjoy the Token system if they were only for standing, nothing else. Gilding Deimos pets, Seriglass Shards, Medical debt-bonds in Fortuna. These side-requirements for the Tokens have consistently been some of the worst complaints about each Open World. Seriglass Shards in particular completely ruin the point of Grandmother tokens; instead of getting bonus standing from saving up your Tokens, you have to use them all purchasing Seriglass Shards. You need 120,000 Standing worth of Grandmother tokens to purchase all the Seriglass you need, it's ridiculous.

Also as you briefly mention, the prices absolutely need a LOT more work. They shouldn't even really be purchases like they are now; just let us trade in each type of item for a set amount of Tokens, as opposed to a randomised, variable selection of bundles that you need to match exactly. Just let me trade in each commodity for a set number of tokens, no extra junk making it tedious.

Really what the system SHOULD be is obvious: take the mineral/fish/weapon trading-in from Fortuna and Cetus, where you get a set amount of Standing for each item, and make them give Tokens instead. Then we can either trade those in for Standing, or get a bonus from a version of the Grandmother system which DOESN'T make us spend them on side resources.

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They already do with gems, fish, and Debt Bonds on Fortuna. All of them can be banked for standing and turned in each day just as Deimos tokens can. The only difference being that PoE doesn't offer a combat route for stockpiling besides Thumpers and only Deimos lets you stockpile through conservation.

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the token system has it's pros and cons. being able to farm more than your standing cap would normally allow is definitley nice, but DE made sure the tokens are spread out across a bunch of things you need, so sometimes you have to think twice about turning them in for standing. 

Seriglass was some hot BS. haven't seen a resource gated like that since OG Nitain Alerts. 

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il y a 36 minutes, (PS4)robotwars7 a dit :

the token system has it's pros and cons. being able to farm more than your standing cap would normally allow is definitley nice, but DE made sure the tokens are spread out across a bunch of things you need, so sometimes you have to think twice about turning them in for standing. 

Seriglass was some hot BS. haven't seen a resource gated like that since OG Nitain Alerts. 

If you play the system, seriglass is really not hard to obtain.

While buying every single decorations, I still naturaly got all 4 needed seriglass before hitting max entrati rank.

Didn't even do anything special, just did bounties, mining, fishing and conservation, went around all the vendors everytime I was in necralisk and managed my tokens halfway efficiently.

I don't know you exactly, but it seems to me that most people complaining about seriglass just don't engage with all the mechanics and surprised pikachu face when it turns out that :

Not engaging with all the activities in a semi efficient way may hinder your progress with the one vendor that relies on all those activities.

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2 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

If you play the system, seriglass is really not hard to obtain.

While buying every single decorations, I still naturaly got all 4 needed seriglass before hitting max entrati rank.

Didn't even do anything special, just did bounties, mining, fishing and conservation, went around all the vendors everytime I was in necralisk and managed my tokens halfway efficiently.

I don't know you exactly, but it seems to me that most people complaining about seriglass just don't engage with all the mechanics and surprised pikachu face when it turns out that :

Not engaging with all the activities in a semi efficient way may hinder your progress with the one vendor that relies on all those activities.

So, you played all parts of the content and got what you wanted pretty quickly?

Pretty sure that kind of logical reasoning is illegal round these parts.

 

 

 

 

 

😉

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40 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

-snip-

It seems like you had it easier because you engaged deeply with every part of the expansion. The key thing is that DE hasn't really intended for everyone to do that; Conservation has always been an optional side activity to earn Standing, and Fishing has been a resource farm first, and an optional Standing farm second. Same goes for Mining. Many people would prefer to just run Bounties for Standing instead of splitting their attention across 4 different activities, and if DE didn't want them to do that then they should have changed the system sometime in the last 3 Open Worlds.

Aside from having to split your attention, people also have to put extra effort in to actually have enough resources for Tokens, after they've built the more interesting stuff from the expansion. I'm sure you'll say that it was easy or whatever, but a lot of people have limited time to play, and they'd rather spend their limited time shooting guns at baddies than running around pointing a light at glowy rocks, or watching a pond waiting for fish to spawn. I'd wager that a good majority of people don't touch Mining or Fishing unless they need a specific resource at that moment. And yes, you can get resources by accident from those containers around the place, but you can't tell me that you get enough to buy a decent number of Tokens with.

Seriglass requiring 20 Grandmother tokens is ridiculous. That's 30,000 Standing lost, 120,000 for all the Seriglass you need, or 800 standard Tokens. Consider that if you don't have surplus of every type of Token at any given time, you can probably only purchase 2-5 Grandmother Tokens within a couple of hours due to having to wait for her stock to replenish. There's nothing enjoyable about this system, it's just RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG, just to buy an item that's basically just a Standing vacuum.

I'm sure that it wasn't hard for you, the type of person who hyper-engages with the content, but consider that most people have other things to do and don't want to waste time on resource grinding when they could be shooting baddies.

/rant, I just really hate the concept of Seriglass and I don't want DE to think that it's an idea worth repeating when they roll out their next Open World.

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il y a 58 minutes, Psianide73 a dit :

So, you played all parts of the content and got what you wanted pretty quickly?

Pretty sure that kind of logical reasoning is illegal round these parts.

 

 

 

 

 

😉

Ooooooh, that would explain a LOT about the many outrageous things I've seen here over the years XD

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il y a 11 minutes, YUNoJump a dit :

It seems like you had it easier because you engaged deeply with every part of the expansion. The key thing is that DE hasn't really intended for everyone to do that; Conservation has always been an optional side activity to earn Standing, and Fishing has been a resource farm first, and an optional Standing farm second. Same goes for Mining. Many people would prefer to just run Bounties for Standing instead of splitting their attention across 4 different activities, and if DE didn't want them to do that then they should have changed the system sometime in the last 3 Open Worlds.

Aside from having to split your attention, people also have to put extra effort in to actually have enough resources for Tokens, after they've built the more interesting stuff from the expansion. I'm sure you'll say that it was easy or whatever, but a lot of people have limited time to play, and they'd rather spend their limited time shooting guns at baddies than running around pointing a light at glowy rocks, or watching a pond waiting for fish to spawn. I'd wager that a good majority of people don't touch Mining or Fishing unless they need a specific resource at that moment. And yes, you can get resources by accident from those containers around the place, but you can't tell me that you get enough to buy a decent number of Tokens with.

Seriglass requiring 20 Grandmother tokens is ridiculous. That's 30,000 Standing lost, 120,000 for all the Seriglass you need, or 800 standard Tokens. Consider that if you don't have surplus of every type of Token at any given time, you can probably only purchase 2-5 Grandmother Tokens within a couple of hours due to having to wait for her stock to replenish. There's nothing enjoyable about this system, it's just RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG, just to buy an item that's basically just a Standing vacuum.

I'm sure that it wasn't hard for you, the type of person who hyper-engages with the content, but consider that most people have other things to do and don't want to waste time on resource grinding when they could be shooting baddies.

/rant, I just really hate the concept of Seriglass and I don't want DE to think that it's an idea worth repeating when they roll out their next Open World.

I have a full time job as an accountant, friends, a family to take care of and all that jazz, I am absolutly not the kind of person to spend hours upon hours on the game. At absolute most nowadays (same during deimos launch), I can maybe hope to get 1h30 of playtime per day at most, and certainly not everyday.

It's not about how much time you sink into the game, it's about how you use this time.

Yes, fishing, mining, hunting WERE side activities in previous OW. But in deimos, and it's supported by the entire thing's design, those are NOW integral parts of the experience. I don't care what it used to be, today the game asks of us to deal with it fully, it doesn't matter if it was different in the past, in a previous update, in an entirely different OW, it has no bearing on what it should be now.

If people willingly avoid the activities that are shown to be mandatory for a regular progression, well it's entirely their fault. You can spin this however you want, people don't do the work only to complain that their work is slow... it's ridiculous.

Not liking those activities is one thing, I agree that funneling people into doing those might not be the best (tho I also think people tend to be huge crybabies about those but...) but that's beside the point. It doesn't matter if you like those or not, it doesn't change the time it takes to acquire seriglass when done properly, aka easy/fast/etc.

120k standing, yeah so ? It's not that big of a number, you go through much much MUCH more by buying all rewards and ranking up. And there's no RNG if you have a small stock of everything, aka, as said above, if you do it properly instead of sulking at half the OW systems. 

It just makes me think of all the people that avoided fortuna out of unfounded spite, just to be horrified when some deimos items required menial amount of easy to obtain fortuna ressources...

To go on a small tangent, you say many people would rather shoot badies. Sure, but I'm willing to bet good money that many people are like me and, after 7+ years and thousands upon thousands of hours in mission, are glad that some other activities other than the same shooty shooty have now a more important place in progression.

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9 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Yes, fishing, mining, hunting WERE side activities in previous OW. But in deimos, and it's supported by the entire thing's design, those are NOW integral parts of the experience. I don't care what it used to be, today the game asks of us to deal with it fully, it doesn't matter if it was different in the past, in a previous update, in an entirely different OW, it has no bearing on what it should be now.

No they weren't. You needed the fish captures in Cetus to rank up. So you're responding to a red herring. People are grasping at any ridiculous thing to complain about and hoping we don't remember the previous grinds. 

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No they weren't. You needed the fish captures in Cetus to rank up. So you're responding to a red herring. People are grasping at any ridiculous thing to complain about and hoping we don't remember the previous grinds. 

That's not comparable at all. The rank-ups are a one-time payment, and you know what they are in advance, so you fish exactly as much as you need to and then stop. I maxed out both Ostrons and Solaris with bounties, not trading in fish or minerals in any significant quantity until after I had maxed them out (or conservation, or debt-bonds from Ticker). To participate in the Deimos economy fully, you need to do all of the activities. You can no longer mostly ignore the side activities. That's the huge difference.

40 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

I have a full time job as an accountant, friends, a family to take care of and all that jazz, I am absolutly not the kind of person to spend hours upon hours on the game. At absolute most nowadays (same during deimos launch), I can maybe hope to get 1h30 of playtime per day at most, and certainly not everyday.

You have 90 minutes a day to play Warframe and you're here posting on the Forum instead?

Maybe you're posting at work, like I am right now :P

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Lots of great comments and thoughts! I totally hear everyone on the availability and pacing of tokens as well as which tokens you need for what - but that's not an issue with the system, imo, that's an issue with the "prices" DE dictated (and I can see where virtually everyone is coming from with their perspectives here)...

What I like about it is it allows for a nice streamlined way to pump ALL resources into standing which can be traded easily for rewards of course... I prefer this to donating whole fish and appreciated being able to turn in ore AND gems (and cut gems could be patched in... I do the bare minimum w Son tags as I want me floofs)... The ability to dump your resources wholesale into standing (ALL uncut gems and ALL uncut fish) was heavy handed in my opinion, and personally, I just wound up hoarding my resources and grinding bounties, lol. I have mountains of some items and I've looked recently and I really DON'T know how I'll spend some of them... Which I imagine is a growing problem as you progress... Which I imagine is where Helminth comes in, lol...

Also, some people mentioned Fortuna having Debt Bonds - While similar, they are not the same as the tokens... They're kind of a hybrid between Cetus Standing and Entrati Standing, in a way... I don't know what Cetus could use (no ideas) but for Fortuna's Debt Bonds, I envision Ticker fulfilling the role of Grandmother and replacing the "Trade <X> for Standing" on the vendors w a contextual option for trading for Debt Bonds... Instead of different numbers/quantities of the same type of "Token/Bond", you could just have them offer all of them w/ Training as the most common/cheapest up to Familial as the least common/most expensive...

Anyhow... I just think the Token system is a nice framework but I have to agree w anyone who's brought it up: the pricing, availability, etc doesn't seem to be "on point" yet and I could see where folks would be hesitant to see that rolled out onto other towns.

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8 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

That's not comparable at all. The rank-ups are a one-time payment, and you know what they are in advance, so you fish exactly as much as you need to and then stop. I maxed out both Ostrons and Solaris with bounties, not trading in fish or minerals in any significant quantity until after I had maxed them out (or conservation, or debt-bonds from Ticker). To participate in the Deimos economy fully, you need to do all of the activities. You can no longer mostly ignore the side activities. That's the huge difference.

And you can absoultely max out the Entrati syndicates, not by catching fish or minerals, but just by playing the mother bounties. The rank up payments are, exactly as you said, a one time thing. You don't need to touch your fishing spear, outside of the quest, and you don't need to touch your mining laser at all. You will need a total of 11 tranqs/tags to obtain max rank and Helminth both.

You absolutely CAN collect fishparts, gems, whatever father asks for, and even weakened tags, while just doing bounties which give mother tokens, without ever participating in the "side activities". I know this because I have done it. The side activities give way more, and faster, but are optional aside from the 11 tags as mentioned.

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9 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Yes, fishing, mining, hunting WERE side activities in previous OW. But in deimos, and it's supported by the entire thing's design, those are NOW integral parts of the experience. I don't care what it used to be, today the game asks of us to deal with it fully, it doesn't matter if it was different in the past, in a previous update, in an entirely different OW, it has no bearing on what it should be now.

I'd be willing to accept this line of thinking if the side tasks were combat or action related in some way. That's already a precedent in other tasks such as Liches, Relic farming or Syndicate missions: an optional task which requires a certain procedure to be followed for rewards, but they actually involve combat for most of that procedure.

Warframe is first and foremost a combat game, so if DE's stance is that the Deimos non-combat side tasks are now a major part of the progression, then I'd say that's a problem. Make me do whatever combat tasks you want, I don't mind, because I'm playing the core gameplay experience. Fishing, mining and conservation aren't that. Sure, some people like to do them, I actually ranked up a decent portion of Fortuna just using conservation, but they should stay as primarily an optional alternative to combat, not a required replacement.

Ever since PoE many players have disliked having to stop doing combat tasks in order to spend time Fishing or Mining for required resources, and DE has acted on that when they made those resources drop from Thumpers, Orb Mothers and now certain containers on Deimos. These options have allowed players to get the resources they need through combat. However, these amounts have only ever been enough for making whatever weapons/etc. you need, they aren't enough for funding Tokens.

DE is willing to let players progress through Cetus and Fortuna content at a reasonable speed by only completing combat-related tasks, but for Deimos, there's a massive handicap if you don't engage in everything. Even if you ignore Seriglass, you're moving so much slower, and the only solution is to do tasks that you may be completely uninterested in, and also play completely differently to the rest of the game. Having to do an unfun task in order to be more effective isn't good.

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Hmm, I don't think that locking actual progression behind former optional side activities is a good decision, especially if this side activity is as buggy as the Archivea conservation... DE could have avoided the whole S#&amp;&#036;storm about this matter by simply keeping it as it was in the other open worlds:  Optional. Seriglass is a different thing, though, imo. If you want the new weapons, you have to farm the new stuff. That was the same with Zaws and Kitguns, that also required the corresponding new materials. The only issue I can see here is that Grandmother tokens rely too often on Son tokens to be obtained.

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Am 14.10.2020 um 02:43 schrieb Venyxos:

I actually dig the token system in Necralisk (not saying anything on the economics or timers on them - just the overall system)... It took some figuring out but clicked pretty quickly and I think Fortuna and Cetus could benefit from their own versions.

you can just hand in minarals fish or other things in fortuna that a worth mutch more for less work i mean at fortuna one of the best things to get is a zodian that thing is worth 1k standing while the same on deimos gets you not anywhere near 100. same goes for cetus you can catch fish worth around the same but if you do it on deimos you get basicly nothing for one fish. and on both loactions you can hunt down animals giving you alot of standing.

so if you want to get standing on demand frotuna go mining soon you will siwm in it.
cetus go fishing it is the same soon you have nothing to worry about.
but for deimos everything takes forever exept for bounties for mother tokens but well for my part i have enough of bounties

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Il y a 15 heures, GrayArchon a dit :

That's not comparable at all. The rank-ups are a one-time payment, and you know what they are in advance, so you fish exactly as much as you need to and then stop. I maxed out both Ostrons and Solaris with bounties, not trading in fish or minerals in any significant quantity until after I had maxed them out (or conservation, or debt-bonds from Ticker). To participate in the Deimos economy fully, you need to do all of the activities. You can no longer mostly ignore the side activities. That's the huge difference.

You have 90 minutes a day to play Warframe and you're here posting on the Forum instead?

Maybe you're posting at work, like I am right now :P

Of course I'm posting at work, not wasting my free time down here XD

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I heard you like gates for your gates on your time gates.

I can see the virtues of making a more interactive syndicate progression, but it adds gates to universal gates already in the game, and highlights the imbalance of things like uncommon conservation collection.

If they replaced some of the time gates, it would be bearable, but exponential gating just makes this feel like Stargate Galaxies.

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On 2020-10-14 at 12:19 PM, Fallen77 said:

Didn't even do anything special, just did bounties, mining, fishing and conservation, went around all the vendors everytime I was in necralisk and managed my tokens halfway efficiently.

I don't know you exactly, but it seems to me that most people complaining about seriglass just don't engage with all the mechanics and surprised pikachu face when it turns out that :

The latter is because people hate those mechanics. Previously, they were options. If you wanted to rank up, you could do bounties, you could fish, you could mine or you could do conservation. You could do any one of any subcomponent of these options and get what you needed.

Deimos? While the mother tokens are just bounty rewards (this is fine) and the father tokens are pretty easy to get (common resources from smashing crates and other world objects), the combination of resources for daughter and claptrap (seriously, why did they bother keeping Otak if he's that annoying?) tokens are mostly doable but can get annoying especially when they want thaumium, and the combinations required for son tokens are just ridiculous (multiple tags from multiple animal types that barely ever spawn).

Why do we even need to put in specific combinations of resources to get these tokens in the first place, and why are the tokens even necessary given that we already have a perfectly good "token" system in the form of standing? What exactly is wrong with cashing in 1 tag of type A for X standing, 1 gem of mineral B for Y standing or one fish of type C for Z standing? That worked perfectly well in the other two open worlds. All the deimos system does is make things needlessly complicated for zero benefit.

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16 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

I'd be willing to accept this line of thinking if the side tasks were combat or action related in some way. That's already a precedent in other tasks such as Liches, Relic farming or Syndicate missions: an optional task which requires a certain procedure to be followed for rewards, but they actually involve combat for most of that procedure.

Warframe is first and foremost a combat game, so if DE's stance is that the Deimos non-combat side tasks are now a major part of the progression, then I'd say that's a problem. Make me do whatever combat tasks you want, I don't mind, because I'm playing the core gameplay experience. Fishing, mining and conservation aren't that. Sure, some people like to do them, I actually ranked up a decent portion of Fortuna just using conservation, but they should stay as primarily an optional alternative to combat, not a required replacement.

Ever since PoE many players have disliked having to stop doing combat tasks in order to spend time Fishing or Mining for required resources, and DE has acted on that when they made those resources drop from Thumpers, Orb Mothers and now certain containers on Deimos. These options have allowed players to get the resources they need through combat. However, these amounts have only ever been enough for making whatever weapons/etc. you need, they aren't enough for funding Tokens.

DE is willing to let players progress through Cetus and Fortuna content at a reasonable speed by only completing combat-related tasks, but for Deimos, there's a massive handicap if you don't engage in everything. Even if you ignore Seriglass, you're moving so much slower, and the only solution is to do tasks that you may be completely uninterested in, and also play completely differently to the rest of the game. Having to do an unfun task in order to be more effective isn't good.

No. Seriously. Just no.

On Deimos every token type can be earned from things done during normal bounties without using the fishing spear, mining tool, or tranq gun. You need a total of 6 tags from conservation targets, to rank up. 

  • Mom gives tokens for doing bounties.
  • Dad, Daughter, and Otak, resources all fall as loot during bounties.
  • Loid's resources com from bounties.
  • And you absolutely do come across weakened animals during bounties and just need to interact with the downed animals to collect weakened tags, which you can use to build newpets, which are tradable to Son for a minimum of 10 tokens.
  • Grandmother's tokens come from trading in the other family tokens.

So again, with the exception of 6 specific tags that Mother requests, there's no reason why you can't progress without the side activities.

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1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

Deimos? While the mother tokens are just bounty rewards (this is fine) and the father tokens are pretty easy to get (common resources from smashing crates and other world objects), the combination of resources for daughter and claptrap (seriously, why did they bother keeping Otak if he's that annoying?) tokens are mostly doable but can get annoying especially when they want thaumium, and the combinations required for son tokens are just ridiculous (multiple tags from multiple animal types that barely ever spawn).

You can get 10 tokens from a single weakened tag, that doesn't require the use of the tranq gun. Get 1 weakened tag during bounty > Build new pet > Trade for 10 tokens.

I have literally collected weakened tags by accident during bounties. Tell me again how ridiculous the Son tokens are?

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token system is okay so long it's not something like the failur of a son tokens wich are considrebly harder to get then everything else.

all the resources other then tags (F tags and F the fact you need veraity of them for tokens) should have a chnce to drop from containers, and lower chance from enemies, that way, players can get most of what they need through normal gameplay, as for animals, it would be best to have a static "x tags for x tokens" as opposed to "x flappy bird and x mutated fox cat for x tokens"

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52 minutes ago, BloodKitten said:

token system is okay so long it's not something like the failur of a son tokens wich are considrebly harder to get then everything else.

all the resources other then tags (F tags and F the fact you need veraity of them for tokens) should have a chnce to drop from containers, and lower chance from enemies, that way, players can get most of what they need through normal gameplay, as for animals, it would be best to have a static "x tags for x tokens" as opposed to "x flappy bird and x mutated fox cat for x tokens"

*sigh*

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You can get 10 tokens from a single weakened tag, that doesn't require the use of the tranq gun. Get 1 weakened tag during bounty > Build new pet > Trade for 10 tokens.

I have literally collected weakened tags by accident during bounties.

👆

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