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Nights of Naberus Story question/discussion


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Spoilers will be in this thread for the Nights of Naberus campfire story, The Second Dream, and The War Within.

So the Orokin are Immortal because they drink the Kuva, which has always been shown as Crimson Kuva up until now.  It facilitates the Continuity process that allows body transfer.  They very apparently do this multiple times throughout their unnatural existence, so it's not a one and done permanent thing.

So uh...  Why then could the three Orokin in the campfire story not just perform Continuity again and get different bodies?  Even if there is a time-gate on it (how funny it would be if DE put time gates even in the lore.) they could just wait it out in their freak forms and then bam, back to being Orokin.  Right?  It was stated they were trapped like that forever, but that's not the way Continuity works in the rest of the lore, to the best of my knowledge.

Am I missing something, or is this an ironic continuity error on DE's part?

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Grandma mentioned that they drank Blue Kuva, the one that temporally puts you in another body, so that they could torment people in those bodies without losing their original body but a little girl grabbed the normal kuva and gave to them while they were still in broken bodies so they got stuck with them. 

I seriously hope we fight them

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I was more surprised over how they spoiler Continuity that early in the game where it played quite a plot point in the War Within.

I was also disturbed that the Orokins were basically mocking their basic subjects for their traits: ugly and death. They ironically deserved their fates but the Entrati.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Grandma mentioned that they drank Blue Kuva, the one that temporally puts you in another body, so that they could torment people in those bodies without losing their original body but a little girl grabbed the normal kuva and gave to them while they were still in broken bodies so they got stuck with them. 

I seriously hope we fight them

Yes, I'm aware of that.  But with the way the game portrays the process of Continuity, it doesn't make sense that they would be trapped in those bodies just from the normal kuva.  They use the normal kuva to swap bodies to be immortal.  Why can they not just do that with the freak bodies?

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Just now, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Yes, I'm aware of that.  But with the way the game portrays the process of Continuity, it doesn't make sense that they would be trapped in those bodies just from the normal kuva.  They use the normal kuva to swap bodies to be immortal.  Why can they not just do that with the freak bodies?

Oh I see, maybe because of their new appearance the Orokin thought they were worthless freaks not Orokin so they couldn't get access to some Kuva to transfer back. Grandma mentioned the sounds they made so maybe they couldn't talk making it even worse to identify them

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Just now, Duality52 said:

I was also disturbed that the Orokins were basically mocking their basic subjects for their traits: ugly and death. They ironically deserved their fates but the Entrati.

There's a reason we wiped them out.  I know there were other factors, but I'm sure them being a gaggle of jackasses didn't help.  Personally, I'm mad at how many Orokin we've run into without just going full Beast of Bones on them.  You'd think as soon as we found one, a voice in the back of our heads would go "missed a spot."  and we'd turn them into paste.  Instead, we keep trying to make friends with the bastards.

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Just now, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Oh I see, maybe because of their new appearance the Orokin thought they were worthless freaks not Orokin so they couldn't get access to some Kuva to transfer back. Grandma mentioned the sounds they made so maybe they couldn't talk making it even worse to identify them

That's a good theory, and sounds like the right answer.  I really hope we start getting encounters with them in missions like other fieldbosses and we get to find out a little more about them and their fate.  Imagine farming some relics or resources and the mission blacks out like Chains of Harrow and you have to fight those things in the dark.

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33 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's a reason we wiped them out.  I know there were other factors, but I'm sure them being a gaggle of jackasses didn't help.  Personally, I'm mad at how many Orokin we've run into without just going full Beast of Bones on them.  You'd think as soon as we found one, a voice in the back of our heads would go "missed a spot."  and we'd turn them into paste.  Instead, we keep trying to make friends with the bastards.

Well, let's see...

Of the surviving Orokin, we have the following (SPOILERS FOR A LOT OF MAJOR QUESTLINES):

Spoiler

Sylvana:  Assimilated into, and protects, a forest.  We're on her side, common enemy in the Grineer and whatnot.  More or less content to stay out of our way otherwise.

Ballas:  Stabbed with extreme prejudice courtesy of Umbra, and only lives on currently as the Chimera.  He's really only on his own side, just that his objectives tend to coincide with ours.

Twin Queens:  The Witch is dead, either by clone rot overtaking her, Teshin's blade, or the Operator themselves.  The Worm still lives and is working to revive her, having fled before everything went down.  We don't much like the Worm.

Entrati:  The ones working to keep the Heart of Deimos, and by extension our Void powers, functional.  Also trying to repel/study the Deimos Infested.  We're on their side because nobody likes Infested.

 

So that amounts to a few true allies, quite a few powerful enemies, and a nominal ally.

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my opinion on the story:

Spoiler

I thought it was honestly pretty great, it encapsulates how much of a bunch of A-holes most Orokin were, and was a brilliant example of karma: they did unspeakable things to those poor Ostrons, and in return, they got trapped in those terrible bodies. Grandmother tells the story in a wonderful way, and we also learned there was more than one type of Kuva, Blue Kuva for temporary bodily possession, red for permanent possession. I just hope it doesn't become too devalued with Kuva in every colour of the rainbow. 

moral of the story: no matter how high in society you are, Don't be a jacka$$, because you WILL get your comeuppance. or as Stalker always says, your actions have consequences. 

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4 hours ago, Duality52 said:

I was more surprised over how they spoiler Continuity that early in the game where it played quite a plot point in the War Within.

I was also disturbed that the Orokins were basically mocking their basic subjects for their traits: ugly and death. They ironically deserved their fates but the Entrati.

Due to the Deimos quest, specifically towards the end, you can't actually complete it without havign done The War Within

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4 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

So uh...  Why then could the three Orokin in the campfire story not just perform Continuity again and get different bodies?  Even if there is a time-gate on it (how funny it would be if DE put time gates even in the lore.) they could just wait it out in their freak forms and then bam, back to being Orokin.  Right?  It was stated they were trapped like that forever, but that's not the way Continuity works in the rest of the lore, to the best of my knowledge.

The red one basically ties their soul to that specific body forever but the blue only does this for a limited time. They can't wait it out because they need to go to a new body before that body dies. At least that's what I think.

Now other than them not being able to talk, probably the other orokin were just A******s and decided to not help them.

Edited by JackHargreav
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Lets make a special note few things.

1) First time we learnt that there are multiple variants of kuva

2) the kuva we get is usually black and red and is not exactly "pure" - liches get a tainted variant of it as well

3) There is BLUE Kuva - which seems to be temporary body swap enabler.

4) There is CRIMSON kuva - which seems to be permanent swap enabler but may not be the same as regular kuva.

5) The orokin drank BOTH , so we arent sure if it was the consequence of just the crimson kuva or the effect of drinking both.

6) When weird looking abominations try to enter a well guarded palace they are usually shot/stabbed at unless they have an invitation - there is also no clear indication if they shared with others about their prank and left instructions with the guards.

 

So it may be a matter of themn not being able to get access to kuva more than the actual capability of continuity.

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I assume that they get a limited supply of Crimson Kuva due to production difficulties, so they won't get a chance for at least a couple years or a physical lifetime. Which doesn't sound too bad until you remember that the entirety of Orokin Culture - save Naberus itself - is predicated on beauty and perfection so they've basically consigned themselves to ridicule at best for decades or more, and being locked up for that time period. Remember, an Orokin lifetime is quite lengthy even before Kuva, if the Darvo's claim of being over a hundred is anything to go by.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Yes, I'm aware of that.  But with the way the game portrays the process of Continuity, it doesn't make sense that they would be trapped in those bodies just from the normal kuva.  They use the normal kuva to swap bodies to be immortal.  Why can they not just do that with the freak bodies?

Grandma said that using crimson Kuva instead of blue Kuva makes it permanent. If you could revert or undo the effects of crimson Kuva by using blue Kuva again then it wouldn't be permanent. 

At a glance this seem like a plothole or a retcon within the context of how the queens used it for continuity. However, there are multiple solutions for this:

1) We have not really seen crimson Kuva in-game, but rather regular Kuva. Yes, regular Kuva is red, but crimson Kuva could be like a neon sparkling aura red or something. This would separate it from what we have seen. 

2) Crimson Kuva is the regular Kuva we have seen. In this case, the Orokin in the story simply were unable to get/use red Kuva again because the Orokin denied them access to it

3) Another option is that the inability to use Continuity was a side-effect from using both blue and crimson Kuva (If Crimson is normal), making the Users unable to perform any form of Continuity again.

Edited by Jarriaga
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The song ends and so he says, 'Rise, Ordan Karris.' I have never seen an Orokin, close and in the flesh. My battered face flushes at their peerless beauty. How can he be so perfect? A deception? A sense manipulation? He holds the Red Vial in his hand. Impossible.

He calls out, 'No greater gift, no greater prize, no greater love... we can give you, Ordan, than this.' He raises the Red Vial and proclaims... 'To be one of us.'

We've only seen and heard of red kuva so far, and everything indicates that it's used for continuity, so using it to DISABLE continuity kinda contradicts established lore;

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13 hours ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Grandma mentioned that they drank Blue Kuva, the one that temporally puts you in another body, so that they could torment people in those bodies without losing their original body but a little girl grabbed the normal kuva and gave to them while they were still in broken bodies so they got stuck with them. 

I seriously hope we fight them

If I understood Grandma correctly, the girl gave the Crimson Kuva to the Ostrons that were inhabiting the bodies of the Orokin kids, while the Orokin kids (in the mutilated Ostron bodies) were out having fun in the city. Not that it really makes a difference to the story, but it is a difference.

I had the same thoughts about this situation otherwise. Blue Kuva being used for temporary possession, I have no problem with that. Although I'm not sure "temporary" is really the appropriate word. "Reversible" seems to be what the writers had in mind. Meaning the kids could swap back bodies at any given time, not necessarily that the body swap had a time limit. Whereas Crimson Kuva (assuming it's the same stuff we've been farming for years and see in The War Within) is meant for a permanent, one-way soul-swap.


This actually fits rather neatly with what we know about Continuty so far. We know Orokin use Kuva for Continuity, and that Continuity is in effect permanent. The Orokin went through Continuity with the express intent of transferring from an old, rotting body to a new, young, healthy one, without any intent of giving it back. So, Continuity was permanent only because the Orokin didn't mean to give anything back, not because permanency was the effect of Red Kuva. Or so we assumed, until now.

So, I think that's why the Orokin kids were stuck and couldnt get their original bodies back: those bodies had been locked by Crimson Kuva. Now, there does not seem to be any reason the kids could not drink Crimson Kuva and transfer to a different new body, just that they could not get their old ones back.

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5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Grandma said that using crimson Kuva instead of blue Kuva makes it permanent. If you could revert or undo the effects of crimson Kuva by using blue Kuva again then it wouldn't be permanent. 

At a glance this seem like a plothole or a retcon within the context of how the queens used it for continuity. However, there are multiple solutions for this:

1) We have not really seen crimson Kuva in-game, but rather regular Kuva. Yes, regular Kuva is red, but crimson Kuva could be like a neon sparkling aura red or something. This would separate it from what we have seen. 

2) Crimson Kuva is the regular Kuva we have seen. In this case, the Orokin in the story simply were unable to get/use red Kuva again because the Orokin denied them access to it

3) Another option is that the inability to use Continuity was a side-effect from using both blue and crimson Kuva (If Crimson is normal), making the Users unable to perform any form of Continuity again.

There's a fourth: The Entrati kids hadn't yet had need to perform continuity by the time Grandma first told the story, so she added the 'forever and ever' part as a cautionary to get them to continuity responsibly. By Orokin Standards, of course. Kind of like how some parents use Santa as a way to encourage children to behave.

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43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There's a fourth: The Entrati kids hadn't yet had need to perform continuity by the time Grandma first told the story, so she added the 'forever and ever' part as a cautionary to get them to continuity responsibly. By Orokin Standards, of course. Kind of like how some parents use Santa as a way to encourage children to behave.

That is indeed another possibility.

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Biggest reveal is obviously the blue Kuva, but it does fit in well with the theory of there being two voids. Steve has mentioned repeatedly that duality is a concept he really likes and uses a lot in the game. Not just with things that are opposites of each other, but which complement each other.

The Tenno are made up of two parts(only one of which we officially know of), the void is, given by the environmental story telling DE has done with Chains of Harrow(Tenno shooting red void beams) and Empyean(Flexa/Ruse Warfield skyboyes), the Infested(Vome/Fass) and probably other things I missed. With the infested in particular, it always rubbed me a little wrong that the infested aboriforms in the derelict contained blue energy.

Spoiler

MEkSP.jpg

OlUq6.jpg

TGMSU.jpg

 

 

I've long since speculated that Kuva was a substance that is extracted by sucking the essence of deceased people(oro?) from the void. That's why Kuva siphon missions are not only relegated to grineer controlled areas. I never really solidified that thought as part of what my official theory craft because fact of Kuva being red, and connected to the Man in the Wall/Shadow/Sentients didn't gel with the in universe depiction of the void.

There's a clear separation between the red and blue void effects and how they differ. Blue is weaker, but controlled. Red is more powerful but aimless. You can even see a Tenno switch between using red and blue void energy in the CoH comic. It highlights how Rell calms down at the touch of that girl Tenno's hand.

Spoiler

1KQe2.png

NmnTD.png

 

Now, though, with blue kuva being reveal, the idea of there being a "void heaven" and "void hell" becomes even more feasible. Blue Kuva is weaker in its effect because its effects are probably more controllable, while the red, well, it just erodes a person's will permanently. My feeling is that they're connected fundamentally, but until we get closer to unification with our twin/Wally in Duviri I don't want to go too off the beaten path speculating.

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