Nights of Naberus Story question/discussion

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

It highlights how Rell calms down at the touch of that girl Tenno's hand.

The is the precise opposite of what's happening in that scene. Rell is Autistic, and has sensory processing issues. As he says two pages later, 'Touching is too much noise'.

If it's highlighting anything, it's highlighting the intense stress that unwanted gesture caused.

[GrayArchon]

20 hours ago, Duality52 said:

I was more surprised over how they spoiler Continuity that early in the game where it played quite a plot point in the War Within.

This has always bugged me. I wish DE made more of an effort to hide the big reveals in their plot. Ah well.

20 hours ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Grandma mentioned the sounds they made so maybe they couldn't talk making it even worse to identify them

This is a decent theory.

20 hours ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

I seriously hope we fight them

20 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I really hope we start getting encounters with them in missions like other fieldbosses and we get to find out a little more about them and their fate.

They took over the tortured bodies of Ostron civilians, whom they already half-killed. They don't seem like very tough enemies, even with the shards of glass.

19 hours ago, Miser_able said:

it could also be a side of effect of combining both blue and red, sort of like an overdose.

I think this is one of the most plausible theories, given how little we know about blue kuva.

16 hours ago, (PS4)grayscale358 said:

Due to the Deimos quest, specifically towards the end, you can't actually complete it without havign done The War Within

This isn't actually true. You can go through the door in your warframe during that part of the quest.

16 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

The red one basically ties their soul to that specific body forever but the blue only does this for a limited time.

See, that's the issue OP (@(XB1)TehChubbyDugan) is talking about. This seems to contradict previous information about red kuva.

15 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

2) the kuva we get is usually black and red and is not exactly "pure" - liches get a tainted variant of it as well

Yes, there are black swirls in the kuva we've seen so far, but how do you know that's not what pure kuva looks like? No one would say "Here you have your blue kuva and here's your red-and-black kuva." There's no indication that normal kuva isn't "pure".

16 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

4) There is CRIMSON kuva - which seems to be permanent swap enabler but may not be the same as regular kuva.

12 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

1) We have not really seen crimson Kuva in-game, but rather regular Kuva. Yes, regular Kuva is red, but crimson Kuva could be like a neon sparkling aura red or something. This would separate it from what we have seen.

I'm not convinced this "crimson kuva" is somehow different from the red kuva. The difference between red and crimson, in almost any context, is negligible. Why would they have two extremely similar reagents that did significantly different things?

7 hours ago, Sentinel-14 said:

If I understood Grandma correctly, the girl gave the Crimson Kuva to the Ostrons that were inhabiting the bodies of the Orokin kids, while the Orokin kids (in the mutilated Ostron bodies) were out having fun in the city.

Continuity doesn't seem to be a two-way street. From what we learn in the War Within, the host mind is destroyed or assimilated when the Orokin takes over their body.

Teshin: "The Queen doesn't want to kill you. She wants to become you. To burrow through your mind, corrupting it with despair, until only she remains."

3 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Biggest reveal is obviously the blue Kuva, but it does fit in well with the theory of there being two voids. Steve has mentioned repeatedly that duality is a concept he really likes and uses a lot in the game. Not just with things that are opposites of each other, but which complement each other.

The Tenno are made up of two parts(only one of which we officially know of), the void is, given by the environmental story telling DE has done with Chains of Harrow(Tenno shooting red void beams) and Empyean(Flexa/Ruse Warfield skyboyes), the Infested(Vome/Fass) and probably other things I missed. With the infested in particular, it always rubbed me a little wrong that the infested aboriforms in the derelict contained blue energy.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I've long since speculated that Kuva was a substance that is extracted by sucking the essence of deceased people(oro?) from the void. That's why Kuva siphon missions are not only relegated to grineer controlled areas. I never really solidified that thought as part of what my official theory craft because fact of Kuva being red, and connected to the Man in the Wall/Shadow/Sentients didn't gel with the in universe depiction of the void.

There's a clear separation between the red and blue void effects and how they differ. Blue is weaker, but controlled. Red is more powerful but aimless. You can even see a Tenno switch between using red and blue void energy in the CoH comic. It highlights how Rell calms down at the touch of that girl Tenno's hand.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Now, though, with blue kuva being reveal, the idea of there being a "void heaven" and "void hell" becomes even more feasible. Blue Kuva is weaker in its effect because its effects are probably more controllable, while the red, well, it just erodes a person's will permanently. My feeling is that they're connected fundamentally, but until we get closer to unification with our twin/Wally in Duviri I don't want to go too off the beaten path speculating.

We only know one part of the Tenno? The Tenno are human+Void. What's hidden about that? These thoughts you've written down are interesting, but I think it's mostly speculation, I think. I don't think there's much duality with the Void. The Void is part of the duality of existence – real and Void. The Void itself probably doesn't break down into two parts. As for Empyrean, the Veil Proxima region isn't the Void. It's just distant space. No explanation on why the sky is sometimes red or blue, but it's not necessarily the Void doing it.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

5 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

They took over the tortured bodies of Ostron civilians, whom they already half-killed. They don't seem like very tough enemies, even with the shards of glass.

I'm thinking of fighting them in a nightmare just like pumpkin juggernaut, no weapons

[AuroraSonicBoom]

2 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

We only know one part of the Tenno? The Tenno are human+Void. What's hidden about that? These thoughts you've written down are interesting, but I think it's mostly speculation, I think. I don't think there's much duality with the Void. The Void is part of the duality of existence – real and Void. The Void itself probably doesn't break down into two parts. As for Empyrean, the Veil Proxima region isn't the Void. It's just distant space. No explanation on why the sky is sometimes red or blue, but it's not necessarily the Void doing it.

Oh yeah, I didn't go into detail about that cause I've done that many times in the past. basically, what the entire story with the man in the wall is about, is that he is not one individual entity, but rather the manifestation of a Tenno's subconscious mind that has been suppressed. This entire idea is based on the concept of the psychological shadow, which postulates that beneath our conscious thoughts and personality there is one driven by pure emotion, desire, fear, and the like. That is what the chains of harrow quest was all about. Rell, due to his mental condition, was unfit to control his inner shadow, which is why the Lotus cast him out, knowing he couldnt be controlled.

Hunhow also calls the Stalker "Shadow" because of this, alluding to the fact that he is fully controlled by his shadow/emotional self. In fact, the entire reason for the transference technology(and margulis being blinded by one of the Tenno) was the Tenno being prone to violent outbursts whenever they get emotional. In the second dream, a memory the Tenno hear of Margulis talking to them says "This will stop the voices from taking hold. You will have to dream, my angel..." These "voices" are heard as distinct echos in the War Within, whenever the Tenno discovers a new part of their past here, here, here, here, and here. The last one in particular is interesting, since the Tenno actually speaks with that familiar Man in the Wall voice before breaking out of the queen's control. He basically channeled his shadow in that moment. People always point to the last cutscene in the War Within when talking about the Man's first appearance, but as you can see he's present throughout the quest, slowly being unearthed by the Tenno remembering their brutal past, and by doing that also their emotions. That emotional excitement is key to the Tenno's shadow is hinted at in the post quest interaction with the Man as well.

Spoiler

Quote

• ???: Feelin' better, kiddo?
• Operator: I killed him... Isaah.
• ???: Did you now? Is that how you remember it?
• Operator: Yes.
• ???: Good.

 

The lines at the end of the War Within quest that the Man utters through the Tenno, in the context of what is seen in the duviri trailer, makes much more sense, as they all seem to be connected.

Spoiler

Quote

• Destroy
  • ???: You mad at me, kiddo? Did you forget? You owe me.
• Control
  • ???: Don't forget, kiddo... you're nothing without me.
• Consume
  • ???: Hey, kiddo, what took you so long?

 

These lines appear to give big hints as to what the relationship between the Tenno and their Shadow is. The second line is the most obvious one, talking about the duality of the Tenno and their hidden other side. For the other two I assume that the grown up version of the Tenno in the Duviri trailer is the Tenno's other half, their Shadow. I'm basing that both on the title of the quest, (Duviri=Duoviri=Two men), and Steve talking about the quest being based on the twin paradox, a thought experiment involving two twins that experience time in different ways, leading to one of them returning to find their sibling having aged much more for to how long they were traveling. Given that circumstance, and void shenanigans having already shown to be able to mess with time(Lua Spy among other examples), the third line seems to indicate that the Shadow had some sort of arrangement with the Tenno, and that he was waiting for to be rescued for longer than expected. This might coincide with the unexpected hiatus the Tenno had taken when the Lotus put them back into their pods, but couldn't bring herself to kill them(Quest: Natah). The first line is the most open ended one, but if we assume the other lines are referencing what we think they reference, this one simply talks about the Shadow having sacrificed something, which has likely stranded them in the void for a long time.

Interestingly enough, the "Something's out there kiddo, watching us." line the queen attributed to the Tenno's father, is one that is repeated by the voice of the Shadow in the reliquary drive. So either there is some plot hole going on, the queen was simply in error not knowing who to attribute that specific memory she read to, or there being more mystery we can't answer yet.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The is the precise opposite of what's happening in that scene. Rell is Autistic, and has sensory processing issues. As he says two pages later, 'Touching is too much noise'.

If it's highlighting anything, it's highlighting the intense stress that unwanted gesture caused.

Not true. The touch can also be a calming one, particularly when a Tenno, who is able to control herself is making contact. The color coding in those panels also speaks a clear language. Blue=calm, quiet, controlled. If Rell would have been averse to that touch at that moment, there would have been no need to design the panels in that way.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Not true. The touch can also be a calming one, particularly when a Tenno, who is able to control herself is making contact. The color coding in those panels also speaks a clear language. Blue=calm, quiet, controlled. If Rell would have been averse to that touch at that moment, there would have been no need to design the panels in that way.

This has nothing to do with the Tenno. Touch aversion is a well-documented phenomena with Autistic individuals, and Rell confirms that he dislikes being touched in that same comic:

Palladino likewise confirms that he gets overstimulated from sensory input:

Quote

Palladino: The Donda! His mother gave him this. Holy Rell was not like other children. Sound, color, touch... it overwhelmed him. The Donda's hum let him focus.

 

[AuroraSonicBoom]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This has nothing to do with the Tenno. Touch aversion is a well-documented phenomena with Autistic individuals, and Rell confirms that he dislikes being touched in that same comic:

Palladino likewise confirms that he gets overstimulated from sensory input:

 

No, sir, I don't buy it. Not the touch aversion thing, but the fact that it has to translate 1:1 from the real world to the Tenno. The color coding in the earlier frames is too obvious for me to discount it. The entire comic is held in a red tone, except those couple of panels that have the girl touching him, and Rell subsequently shooting blue void energy. Also, Rell got touched again when he got attacked by the Tenno above, who obviously harbored less than sympathetic thoughts for him.

 

[Loza03]

Just now, AuroraSonicBoom said:

No, sir, I don't buy it. Not the touch aversion thing, but the fact that it has to translate 1:1 from the real world to the Tenno. The color coding in the earlier frames is too obvious for me to discount it. The entire comic is held in a red tone, except those couple of panels that have the girl touching him, and Rell subsequently shooting blue void energy. Also, Rell got touched again when he got attacked by the Tenno above, who obviously harbored less than sympathetic thoughts for him.

 

The comic doesn't have to show that getting physically attacked is a stressful situation. Being pulled away to escape - which most people consider neutral in most cases - does need to be called out if it's stressful. Rells entire world going pitch black for a single touch when he just shot a laser through his own mother's chest 

Furthermore, blue features elsewhere in the comic - the cold vacuum of space with corpses floating in it:

Needless to say, if blue was the colour of peace and focus in this comic, it probably wouldn't be used here. But it is.

 

Cyan is the colour of peace and focus in the comic, since it's the colour the Donda makes when Rell starts stimming with it: 

 

Even more to the point, there's a far simpler explanation for why Rell's void beam is blue - the background.

The first time he uses it, it's a purplish colour, on a red background. The second time, it overlaps a black background, which is a more neutral colour. In fact, where it overlaps the door frame and floor (which is coloured red) it once again adopts the purple colour:

Hanlons razor - if it's purple over a red background, and blue over a black background, then that's probably what causes the colour change, not the events of the story, as it doesn't match up.

 

Furthermore, Rell's Autism is a major plot point. Stimming is used by Autistic individuals when they're overwhelmed, often by sensory stimulus, as well as an aide for concentration. Chains of Harrow is triggered when Rell loses the item he stims with, which causes him to become less able to focus and allows the Man in the Wall to use him as a vessel. That's the inciting incident of the entire quest, which also explores Rell's experiences with Autism and his feelings towards it, and even seems to advocate for the social model of disability. Lotus treats the event and Rell's distress as a problem with a discrete cause and effect, rather than as the sum of mistreatment Rell has suffered over his life, and when she tries to simply treat the condition, the symptoms go away but the underlying problem gets worse. Autism is a big deal in the quest, and a big deal in the comic, and ignoring it when you're analysing it for lore clues is going to lead to misinterpetation.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The comic doesn't have to show that getting physically attacked is a stressful situation. Being pulled away to escape - which most people consider neutral in most cases - does need to be called out if it's stressful. Rells entire world going pitch black for a single touch when he just shot a laser through his own mother's chest 

Furthermore, blue features elsewhere in the comic - the cold vacuum of space with corpses floating in it:

Needless to say, if blue was the colour of peace and focus in this comic, it probably wouldn't be used here. But it is.

 

Cyan is the colour of peace and focus in the comic, since it's the colour the Donda makes when Rell starts stimming with it: 

 

Even more to the point, there's a far simpler explanation for why Rell's void beam is blue - the background.

The first time he uses it, it's a purplish colour, on a red background. The second time, it overlaps a black background, which is a more neutral colour. In fact, where it overlaps the door frame and floor (which is coloured red) it once again adopts the purple colour:

Hanlons razor - if it's purple over a red background, and blue over a black background, then that's probably what causes the colour change, not the events of the story, as it doesn't match up.

 

Furthermore, Rell's Autism is a major plot point. Stimming is used by Autistic individuals when they're overwhelmed, often by sensory stimulus, as well as an aide for concentration. Chains of Harrow is triggered when Rell loses the item he stims with, which causes him to become less able to focus and allows the Man in the Wall to use him as a vessel. That's the inciting incident of the entire quest, which also explores Rell's experiences with Autism and his feelings towards it, and even seems to advocate for the social model of disability. Lotus treats the event and Rell's distress as a problem with a discrete cause and effect, rather than as the sum of mistreatment Rell has suffered over his life, and when she tries to simply treat the condition, the symptoms go away but the underlying problem gets worse. Autism is a big deal in the quest, and a big deal in the comic, and ignoring it when you're analysing it for lore clues is going to lead to misinterpetation.

Quote

All the writing about color coding

Thanks for making my point. I didn't want to include the donda and the dead bodies in space cause they're minor elements, but since you did - yes, they are visualizing calmness. It only solidifies what I was talking about.

Quote

Hanlon'z Razor

There is something like over analyzing to try and win an argument, and you're doing that. Even if I'll give you the color mixing theory to explain away my point, the fact that there is still an entire panel with Rell being color coded blue the moment he is touched by a non autistic Tenno which happens two panels before he shoots the blue beam, castrates that argument again.

Quote

Autism blah

Overanalyzing, again. Tenno are described by the queen as being able to float on the surface of the void while others(the adults) drown in it, referencing a big plot point that is not relevant to the issue at hand. Rell of course isn't your typical Tenno, but the girl is. What is important is the fact that Rell can calm down without his donda, as seen at end of the quest, after we helped him defeat his shadow, or what people like to call Man in the Wall. Rell being autistic in the game doesn't mean that he's a one to one translation of real autists, and I don't expect DE to honor some psychological condition in order to portray them one hundred percent accurately, especially not if the story would suffer. If I was that much of a whiner I'd have complained about the way the void is supposed to work long ago, which is inspired(inspired, not copied) from parts of real world particle science theories, namely calabi yau manifolds and superstrings. Trying to make out that the autism is anything other than a semi original plot device to give players hints about why the void isn't affecting children in the same way as adults is obsessing over it.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Overanalyzing, again. Tenno are described by the queen as being able to float on the surface of the void while others(the adults) drown in it, referencing a big plot point that is not relevant to the issue at hand. Rell of course isn't your typical Tenno, but the girl is. What is important is the fact that Rell can calm down without his donda, as seen at end of the quest, after we helped him defeat his shadow, or what people like to call Man in the Wall. Rell being autistic in the game doesn't mean that he's a one to one translation of real autists, and I don't expect DE to honor some psychological condition in order to portray them one hundred percent accurately, especially not if the story would suffer. If I was that much of a whiner I'd have complained about the way the void is supposed to work long ago, which is inspired(inspired, not copied) from parts of real world particle science theories, namely calabi yau manifolds and superstrings. Trying to make out that the autism is anything other than a semi original plot device to give players hints about why the void isn't affecting children in the same way as adults is obsessing over it.

Do you know what this is?

This is a real-world Autism therapy method, emotion cards. It's not inspired by, it's not a variant of, it's not even Warframe's take on. It's straight up just a part of the Sunshine program, in Warframe, which serves as one of the most important pieces of visual iconography in the quest. They're more important than Harrow himself, and the Warframe in the quests' name.

Also, Rebecca has confirmed Rell was written as Autistic.:

 

This isn't overanalysis - this is a simple statement of fact in the face of overwhelming evidence. Rell is an Autistic individual.

[Miser_able]

I had a discussion with my friend about the whole blue kuva thing last night and I came to an interesting conclusion. Who's to say that red and blue are the only ones? this opens up an avenue for a whole slew of kuvas with unique effects. like idk, black kuva that destroys their mind leaving them an empty living husk that only performs automatic functions, or yellow kuva that creates a sort of "snap shot" of the users current mind then tranfers that over to a new body while leaving their old one intact.

[Loza03]

Just now, Miser_able said:

I had a discussion with my friend about the whole blue kuva thing last night and I came to an interesting conclusion. Who's to say that red and blue are the only ones? this opens up an avenue for a whole slew of kuvas with unique effects. like idk, black kuva that destroys their mind leaving them an empty living husk that only performs automatic functions, or yellow kuva that creates a sort of "snap shot" of the users current mind then tranfers that over to a new body while leaving their old one intact.

I'm of two minds about this.

On the one hand, it'd probably devalue Kuva, similar to how all the colours devalue Kryptonite.

On the other it presents story possibilities, and can slot right into the 'seven' aesthetic the Orokin like to have.

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

Yes, there are black swirls in the kuva we've seen so far, but how do you know that's not what pure kuva looks like? No one would say "Here you have your blue kuva and here's your red-and-black kuva." There's no indication that normal kuva isn't "pure".

I'm not convinced this "crimson kuva" is somehow different from the red kuva. The difference between red and crimson, in almost any context, is negligible. Why would they have two extremely similar reagents that did significantly different things?

Until now there has been no reference to different variants of kuva outside of a "tainted"one when it comes to liches (though not directly).

We currently dont know what constitutes normal kuva, pure kuva , crimson kuva or blue kuva. The whole origin of Kuva is a mystery for now.

Arguments of color observation aside (crimson is very specific , red could be any range including crimson - only way they could have made this easier is to give hex color code to kuva variants), 

We also only saw one of the use of the various kuva , there may be nuances that make one variant preferable over another. Similarity is a matter of perception and attribute being observed , since we have not seen how different crimson kuva looks from regular kuva (if at all they are different )

 

Lets take crude oil as an example - its a liquid that is dark and viscous usually black, it can be made into various other oils each with different properties that are significantly different but have similar origins with colors ranging from black to waxy white. The more i think about it the more resemblance i see between kuva and crude oil now.

 

[prodi1600]

This have been one of the most interesting post I have read so far.

[akots]

20 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Until now there has been no reference to different variants of kuva outside of a "tainted"one when it comes to liches (though not directly).

We currently dont know what constitutes normal kuva, pure kuva , crimson kuva or blue kuva. The whole origin of Kuva is a mystery for now.

...

It is pretty hard to rationalize as anything that is related to void and void transition in general should have a considerable spiritual/pure energy component. However, if we might draw some analogy with physics, it might be possible to hypothesize that kuva is a type of energy generated by movement of an entity through void transition. It may be something like magnetic field generated by moving charges or Cherenkov radiation generated by moving of a particle through space/border with different speed, although it might be bit different in some aspects. Since Queens' siphon can harvest kuva only when an operator is nearby, it is reasonable to suggest that maintaining of transference generates some waves, which create some, let's say, diffraction patterns, for example, which can be "captured". Color of kuva, similar to color of light and color of diffraction and interference patterns, may be determined by energy spectrum of entity that moves to/from/around void. So, kuva of any color may exist theoretically.

It is highly speculative, and I have obviously no idea what DE has in mind. But at least it does not contradict the lore directly.

"Tainted" simply may refer either to the secondary nature of harvesting (not direct but through interference/diffraction patterns) or to red color since typically red corresponds to lower energy compared to blue, which might make it inferior.

So, in this case, again using an analogy, "using kuva" on something may be considered as application of a magnetic field to generate a current in a stator/rotor system. In the case of liches/rivens/etc, it might establish some sort of void connection in a primitive form to enable partial transition. Basically, you throw some object in/around void/border and acquire a new object as a result. This new object may be identical or somewhat different depending on many factors.

[SpicyDinosaur]

3 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Thanks for making my point. I didn't want to include the donda and the dead bodies in space cause they're minor elements, but since you did - yes, they are visualizing calmness. It only solidifies what I was talking about.

There is something like over analyzing to try and win an argument, and you're doing that. Even if I'll give you the color mixing theory to explain away my point, the fact that there is still an entire panel with Rell being color coded blue the moment he is touched by a non autistic Tenno which happens two panels before he shoots the blue beam, castrates that argument again.

Overanalyzing, again. Tenno are described by the queen as being able to float on the surface of the void while others(the adults) drown in it, referencing a big plot point that is not relevant to the issue at hand. Rell of course isn't your typical Tenno, but the girl is. What is important is the fact that Rell can calm down without his donda, as seen at end of the quest, after we helped him defeat his shadow, or what people like to call Man in the Wall. Rell being autistic in the game doesn't mean that he's a one to one translation of real autists, and I don't expect DE to honor some psychological condition in order to portray them one hundred percent accurately, especially not if the story would suffer. If I was that much of a whiner I'd have complained about the way the void is supposed to work long ago, which is inspired(inspired, not copied) from parts of real world particle science theories, namely calabi yau manifolds and superstrings. Trying to make out that the autism is anything other than a semi original plot device to give players hints about why the void isn't affecting children in the same way as adults is obsessing over it.

There's so much wrong with this post and I can't figure out how to verbalize how wrong it is at all, much less in a civil manner.

[JackHargreav]

6 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

See, that's the issue OP (@(XB1)TehChubbyDugan) is talking about. This seems to contradict previous information about red kuva.

It doesn't contradict anything. You are tied to a certain body until you want. The blue kuva just puts you into another one for a short limited time. That's how it always worked. I mean the how the red worked. The blue thingy is obviously new.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

8 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

It doesn't contradict anything. You are tied to a certain body until you want. The blue kuva just puts you into another one for a short limited time. That's how it always worked. I mean the how the red worked. The blue thingy is obviously new.

The red being "forever" is contradictory, because by the very nature of using Continuity multiple times to live forever, the transfer from red kuva can't be "forever."  It's semi-permanent, yes, because it doesn't revert on its own, but you CAN switch to a new body when the one you're in wears out, meaning you can undo it per the lore.  They could not be stuck in those bodies "forever and ever" just from Continuity due to Kuva use.  There would have to be some other underlying issue, several of which were brought up in this thread already.

I feel like it's probably a partial retcon so they can introduce different story elements later.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2020-10-16 at 3:50 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Lets make a special note few things.

1) First time we learnt that there are multiple variants of kuva

2) the kuva we get is usually black and red and is not exactly "pure" - liches get a tainted variant of it as well

3) There is BLUE Kuva - which seems to be temporary body swap enabler.

4) There is CRIMSON kuva - which seems to be permanent swap enabler but may not be the same as regular kuva.

5) The orokin drank BOTH , so we arent sure if it was the consequence of just the crimson kuva or the effect of drinking both.

6) When weird looking abominations try to enter a well guarded palace they are usually shot/stabbed at unless they have an invitation - there is also no clear indication if they shared with others about their prank and left instructions with the guards.

 

So it may be a matter of themn not being able to get access to kuva more than the actual capability of continuity.

The more I read, the more I think that the MiTW had infected the entirety of Orokin society.

Much like he is now in our head with the Margulis safety protocols off to keep the nightmares away, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that a slow madness began to chase the Orokin once they transferred into their first Yuvan, and that body-hopping was their way of not only staying young, but trying to outrun the MITW.

[FireSegment]

On 2020-10-16 at 9:44 AM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Spoilers will be in this thread for the Nights of Naberus campfire story, The Second Dream, and The War Within.

So the Orokin are Immortal because they drink the Kuva, which has always been shown as Crimson Kuva up until now.  It facilitates the Continuity process that allows body transfer.  They very apparently do this multiple times throughout their unnatural existence, so it's not a one and done permanent thing.

So uh...  Why then could the three Orokin in the campfire story not just perform Continuity again and get different bodies?  Even if there is a time-gate on it (how funny it would be if DE put time gates even in the lore.) they could just wait it out in their freak forms and then bam, back to being Orokin.  Right?  It was stated they were trapped like that forever, but that's not the way Continuity works in the rest of the lore, to the best of my knowledge.

Am I missing something, or is this an ironic continuity error on DE's part?

so ... eh ... we dont really have concrete information on how exactly the ritual to transfer body play out, is the subject body have to be drilled with a kuva ... err .. driller like in TWW quest? does the host only need to drink kuva once then free to hop into whatever body available in range? we just don't know

I think that in the tale, what went wrong is that the host body of the orokin kid consumed both blue and red kuva at the same time, the combination of both is something shouldn't happen apparently. It could be that the red kuva now "anchor" their soul to the deformed body as long as the origin body exist, but destroy the origin body to perform continuity on deformed body might actually killed them for good. Which make the only option for them to servive is to preserve the host body in cryo then keep living in the deform body forever.

But then again, this is orokin tale that are told by orokin gramma to orokin kids to scare them in orokin halloween night.  The solution might actually be easy enough for the grow up orokin to implement but err ... they would have to kill their child before their first ever natural death. And if that isn't dramatic enough, then u can think of it as they are really annoyed that the toddlers spoiled all the effort the grow up made into generically engineer whatever the body the kid was in that suppose to last for 100s of years or so before replacement - the equivalent of the kid pour water over their gaming rig. So they made up the story that way to scare them away for messing with the kuvas.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

Uh.... guys? Haven't any of you been told scary stories while sitting around a crackling fire? They're not always absolutely accurate. The most famous one was probably the story of, "Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus". While it was inspired by the discovery by Luigi Galvani that an electric spark made the muscles of a frog's legs twitch, it wasn't what anyone would call factual.

Interestingly, that particular "fireside spooky story" in 1816 session also produced, "The Vampyre" by John William Polidori, many decades before Bram Stoker wrote his story.

 

I figure Grangran told a tale that she knew would strike terror into the hearts of any young Orokin.

[GrayArchon]

19 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Oh yeah, I didn't go into detail about that cause I've done that many times in the past. basically, what the entire story with the man in the wall is about, is that he is not one individual entity, but rather the manifestation of a Tenno's subconscious mind that has been suppressed. This entire idea is based on the concept of the psychological shadow, which postulates that beneath our conscious thoughts and personality there is one driven by pure emotion, desire, fear, and the like. That is what the chains of harrow quest was all about. Rell, due to his mental condition, was unfit to control his inner shadow, which is why the Lotus cast him out, knowing he couldnt be controlled.

This is a valid interpretation, and shows a lot of thought, but it's not necessarily canon. Chains of Harrow gives two different perspectives:

1) Lotus (and Margulis before her) thinks that this is an effect from prolonged Transference without safety mechanisms. Lotus: "Transference energy, fractured. It was so… cold, indifferent, inhuman. If Rell was Tenno, what did he become without Margulis?" Lotus: "Rell's warnings… those dire consequences… he was talking about Void exposure, wasn't he? The effect it has on human minds is well understood…." Palladino: "…some kind of deep pressure bends as Margulis suspected…" According to this theory, the events of Chains of Harrow were the product of Rell's subconscious (or something similar), and the Man in the Wall, to the extent that he exists, is a collective delusion or projection (but one that can affect the real world, of course, since the Tenno are certainly capable of using their Void powers subconsciously and probably unknowingly). This seems similar to what you're saying.

2) Rell and Palladino believe that the Man in the Wall is some sort of alien entity, a cosmic horror with malevolent intent. Palladino: "Rell saw what it was, truly. An entity, indifferent, old as stars." Rell: "He's listening. He knows what you're doing. It makes him stronger." If this is the case, the Man in the Wall has existed for aeons, independent of the Tenno.

The quest leaves the true answer ambiguous. Obviously they cannot both be correct, but neither explanation is presented as the "right" one. The fact that one is based on Jungian psychology doesn't mean it's correct in the narrative; it just means that DE draws their inspiration from diverse sources. The other explanation draws on H P Lovecraft's horror work. I will admit, I'm not caught up on all of Albrecht Entrati's speeches from the Requiems in Deimos, so if this gets discussed there, I don't know about it and I could be wrong.

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Hanlons razor - if it's purple over a red background, and blue over a black background, then that's probably what causes the colour change, not the events of the story, as it doesn't match up.

Did you mean to say Occam's Razor? Hanlon's Razor is about malice and stupidity.

15 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Until now there has been no reference to different variants of kuva outside of a "tainted"one when it comes to liches (though not directly).

Well, the Gara Legend mentions "Temple kuva" from the Unum. It's not made explicit that this is a variant of kuva, but no one else refers to it as "Temple kuva", so we don't know. And what's this about the liches getting tainted kuva?

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, GrayArchon said:

Did you mean to say Occam's Razor? Hanlon's Razor is about malice and stupidity.

Ah, whoops.

[BDMblue]

It could be the mangled body’s could no longer take in Kuva. 

 

Its a scary story so the science behind it is not important to it. Remember that these body’s would die if something was not done to keep them alive. So maybe what they did to them would stop Kuva from working, but keep the body’s alive. 

 

So they mangel the body’s drink the Kuva and then make the body’s immortal or unding. The blue is going to work for a day then they just go back. When the red is put in its seals then in. The body’s being messed with to be undead stops Kuva use and they are stuck.

Could even be a strain of the  infestation used to keep the body’s alive that also stops Kuva use.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

On the one hand, it'd probably devalue Kuva, similar to how all the colours devalue Kryptonite.

On the other it presents story possibilities, and can slot right into the 'seven' aesthetic the Orokin like to have.

Could be worse, even if there was only the red kryptonite. At least according to Grangran each has a specific use.