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October 2020 Riven Disposition Update Preview


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5 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Reform, not revolution. Rivens don't need to be deleted or completely reworked. Maybe dispo should scale more dramatically, or certain stats should be additive instead of multiplicative, but no amount of messing with the riven system is going to solve weapon balance issues caused by disparities of crit vs status, ST vs AoE, or guns vs melee. The upcoming status balance pass will hopefully make a lot of bad weapons and bad riven rolls much better.

Quite reasonable. 

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I don't quite understand DE's logic with the nerfs.

If the purpose of Rivens is to boost usage to weapons that do not have decent stats or overall usage, then by giving a weapon a high riven disposition it would - by their logic - increase usage, and inevitably reduce riven disposition because it is being used more?  

It sounds like a repetitive cycle of moving from one high end weapon to another, but regularly rotating in/out what weapons end up being reasonably powerful (again, with their logic).  If anything, what it seems to do is just moderately add to the amount of viable weapons for increasingly difficult content, but weapons like the Kuva Nukor, Bramma, Acceltra, Phantasma etc. still outpace and outperform a significant amount of other gear.  

As someone already mentioned, the Kraken will always suck as a secondary, as no riven stats can prop it up to compete with most secondary weapons.  In every game there is worthless gear and top tier gear, so why try to boost said worthless gear to seem slightly more useful while making top tier gear worse with the same system?  If I want to $&*^ around with a Torid and some superior version comes out - which in all likelihood will not out perform other high status/crit primaries - why should A) the superior version have awful disposition, and B) my Acceltra get nerfed simply because it is used more often?  The Acceltra being good does not make the Torid any worse/less useful, and inversely any better/more useful if the Acceltra is nerfed, and does not remove player choice.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Tribal Souljah1 said:

If the purpose of Rivens is to boost usage to weapons that do not have decent stats or overall usage, then by giving a weapon a high riven disposition it would - by their logic - increase usage, and inevitably reduce riven disposition because it is being used more?  

I don't think that's how it works. Not everyone has a Riven for a high disposition weapon, and I don't think DE balance Rivens around the usage stats for the Rivens themselves, but rather the base weapons.

Just look at the Arcggun update. Mausolon is missing for a reason.

Edited by Jarriaga
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5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think that's how it works. Not everyone has a Riven for a high disposition weapon, and I don't think DE balance Rivens around the usage stats for the Rivens themselves, but rather the base weapons.

 

I don't think I suggested that it was based on the Riven usage itself, but rather the base weapon like you mention - I appreciate the clarification though.

My main point is that theoretically speaking, we create a cycle of balancing attempts based on usage, but if something now becomes usable because it isn't being used (thanks to a riven) with increased usage it then runs the risk of becoming unusable by lowering the disposition based on usage.  

I see it as kind of like punishing itself for doing what it's supposed to do.  Almost like migrating usage around rather than any actual balancing.  Like, the Arca Plasmor got a buff, so that's nice for my riven, and makes it more useable in some cases than other shotguns. 

I could understand the usage mindset if a riven was added at .8 - .9, then buffed based on usage, but not nerfed.  We want people to use less commonly used weapons more based on this system by having a high stat mod incentive to try other weapons; at least that's how I interpreted their original intention, and granted some weapons will not be fixed even with that. 

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5 часов назад, Old_Fogie сказал:

Yup

No, fast all another riven dispositions gone down, or i maybe not quite understand why prime version of weapons lose some % of disposition...

misunderstood the math

Edited by someson
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And what about the fact that some weapons are more fun to use or just plain better? Do you think that is taken into account when adding dispo changes?

There's a whole mess of buffed rivens on that list for things that I'm never going to use either because they're not good or I just don't want to. 

Freedom of play seems to be the compromise. 

DE,

It's been years. Please fix the riven system already. If you need help on exactly how to do that, just ask. 

Stop punishing us.

Thanks,

A player.

Edited by parttimeparty
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14 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think that's how it works. Not everyone has a Riven for a high disposition weapon, and I don't think DE balance Rivens around the usage stats for the Rivens themselves, but rather the base weapons.

Just look at the Arcggun update. Mausolon is missing for a reason.

mausolon is missing because it's arguably the strongest archgun in the the game right now. DE knows no matter how much they increase the dispo of weak weapons no one will choose it because the base stats are trash. just look at arca plasmor or paracesis due to usage alone they can't get good rivens and have weaker stats than say kuva kohm/corinth/ kronen prime/ redeemer prime. so now we have a system where people are mostly buying high dispo rivens for their stat sticks or not buying at all as even a basic mod outperforms rivens on high end meta rivens. 

Edited by kevoisvevo
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On 2020-10-16 at 8:48 PM, (NSW)Blankus said:

So... Mausolon stays at .5? That's pretty awful. 

yep DE did u miss this or what..

On 2020-10-28 at 4:10 AM, sitfesz said:

Then stop trying to make people shut up about it if it's flawed and point out the mistakes instead of taking a way around.

People complain, because they grinded, won in a slot machine and beat rng multiple times and their mod still degrades. It would be fair if rolling investment didn't exist.
Right now? The players pay for buffing trash weapons and when they do it to (not necessarily good) POPULAR weapons, they straight get punished for dumping resources into that mod.

well said unfortunately DE just dont get it anymore

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well i just got a plague kripath ok roll and now the stats just dropped ..

It just feel very bad after the amount of effort you put into something to get something out of it

and it goes all in vain..

plague kripath with maiming strike already hit so badly and now its even worse ..

I cant even kill a level 35 demolisher with this now.  :(

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I didn't need a crystal ball to know that the Redeemer Prime would go the way of the Kuva Bramma.

I'm not particularly happy that my favorite melee weapon since April 15th of 2019 is receiving yet another blow to the head for being good, especially without warning.

My way to fix this? When the disposition changes, the rivens stay the same. The rivens will adjust to the new disposition in the form of new rolls if you decide to reroll it.

For example, imagine a riven disposition of 1 going down to a 0.8 when the changes come around. Instead of existing riven stats adjusting immediately, they stay the same. If you went to reroll that riven, a screen pops up, saying that if you reroll the changed riven, it will slowly adjust itself to the new disposition values.

So you reroll the riven once, and you see the new potential stats are automatically calibrated to the new disposition, while the old stats you just had get 20% closer to the disposition it's supposed to have. If you decide to keep the old stats and reroll the riven again, the riven gets 20% closer to the new disposition again. This keeps going until the stats are in line with the proper disposition. This works the same way for riven dispositions that get higher, where the new potential stats are automatically calibrated, while existing stays slowly get better and better.

With this formula, dispositions that drop lower will respect the work you put into the riven prior to the changes, and will only take a turn for the worse if you are willing to gamble for better stats. Dispositions that rise higher will encourage you to spend a little Kuva to maximize the new disposition values. Either way, the player's time, resources, and potentially platinum is not thrown down the gutter every 3 months

Edited by (XB1)HollowCube987
Had to drop a logic bomb
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10 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

mausolon is missing because it's arguably the strongest archgun in the the game right now. DE knows no matter how much they increase the dispo of weak weapons no one will choose it because the base stats are trash. just look at arca plasmor or paracesis due to usage alone they can't get good rivens and have weaker stats than say kuva kohm/corinth/ kronen prime/ redeemer prime. so now we have a system where people are mostly buying high dispo rivens for their stat sticks or not buying at all as even a basic mod outperforms rivens on high end meta rivens. 

Working as intended since day 2 then.

DE don't want you to focus on Rivens for the high end, but rather the low end. If you don't like it that's fine, but it's working as advertised.

 

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4 hours ago, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

My way to fix this? When the disposition changes, the rivens stay the same. The rivens will adjust to the new disposition in the form of new rolls if you decide to reroll it.

That means Riven value will be tied to the generation date of the Riven. I don't think that's on the table as it would punish those who happen to generate a Riven later while rewarding hoarders and old Riven dealers.

Edited by Jarriaga
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12 hours ago, parttimeparty said:

And what about the fact that some weapons are more fun to use or just plain better? Do you think that is taken into account when adding dispo changes?

Yes? I think it's obvious that the more powerful a weapon is (Which directly correlates to its popularity, let's not pretend otherwise), the weaker the Riven. That's the actual point.

12 hours ago, parttimeparty said:

It's been years. Please fix the riven system already. If you need help on exactly how to do that, just ask. 

There is little to "fix" outside edge cases as the system is working as advertised. You just don't like it, but that doesn't make it a broken system.

Request for the system to be completely changed if you want to, but "fixing it" is the wrong terminology to use. And even then, DE won't change it if the end result is going to be unadultered powercreep that favors the top of the line.

Edited by Jarriaga
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59 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Working as intended since day 2 then.

DE don't want you to focus on Rivens for the high end, but rather the low end. If you don't like it that's fine, but it's working as advertised.

 

then they should remove rivens for high end weapons anyway. hell take away rivens for stat sticks too since they are as unfair as the meta weapons. rivens are a mistake if they are based on usage alone rather than proper balance on base stats. i think it's insulting that a riven'd paracesis gets out dps by a non riven'd gram prime or that a normal mod with half the mod capacity provides stronger stats that a riven for a weapon. 

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On 2020-10-28 at 10:40 AM, (XB1)Tribal Souljah1 said:

I don't quite understand DE's logic with the nerfs.

If the purpose of Rivens is to boost usage to weapons that do not have decent stats or overall usage, then by giving a weapon a high riven disposition it would - by their logic - increase usage, and inevitably reduce riven disposition because it is being used more?  

It sounds like a repetitive cycle of moving from one high end weapon to another, but regularly rotating in/out what weapons end up being reasonably powerful (again, with their logic).  If anything, what it seems to do is just moderately add to the amount of viable weapons for increasingly difficult content, but weapons like the Kuva Nukor, Bramma, Acceltra, Phantasma etc. still outpace and outperform a significant amount of other gear.  

As someone already mentioned, the Kraken will always suck as a secondary, as no riven stats can prop it up to compete with most secondary weapons.  In every game there is worthless gear and top tier gear, so why try to boost said worthless gear to seem slightly more useful while making top tier gear worse with the same system?  If I want to $&*^ around with a Torid and some superior version comes out - which in all likelihood will not out perform other high status/crit primaries - why should A) the superior version have awful disposition, and B) my Acceltra get nerfed simply because it is used more often?  The Acceltra being good does not make the Torid any worse/less useful, and inversely any better/more useful if the Acceltra is nerfed, and does not remove player choice.

Like the meta users state themselves: they're actually not gonna bother using a Harpak, as they'd rather use their Bramma still. 

Just like people said they'd rather use a 5% Helmith roar than Loki's decoy. 

They just follow whatever is "easy" and naturally overpowered and use the "fun" excuse.

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2 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

then they should remove rivens for high end weapons anyway.

I don't think that's possible unless each weapon is made to have a unique Riven. Meaning, Orthos and Orthos Prime can not share Rivens for example. And you would then see a huge backlash from people who suddenly don't have a Riven for the weapon variant they were using unless DE become Santa and just give you a duplicate for each variation even if you don't have enough Riven slots for it.

And even then you'll get people complaining about "Why are there no Kuva Nukor Rivens?" like that guy some pages back complaining about the Kuva Nukor disposition nerf seemingly oblivious to the KN likely being on DE's hard base stat nerf target list.

2 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

hell take away rivens for stat sticks too since they are as unfair as the meta weapons.

I agree with this. Rivens should not be part of the damage calculations for stat sticks. The community will complain a lot about this massive nerf, but on the bright side it will expose the hypocrisy of those asking for it during the Xoris debacle as their justification for their anger often boiled down to "Xoris is not even the best stat stick because of Rivens; DE are doing this so the Xoris doesn't eclipse stat stick Riven sales". 

2 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

rivens are a mistake if they are based on usage alone rather than proper balance on base stats

It's both as of early last year.

It's just that people either think DE are lying or don't have an internal ranking based on stats all because people don't like the end result, and edge cases like the Aksomati/Corinth just add fuel to that fire. In other words, because those edge cases exist, the entirety of the rest of the system is obviously wrong and invalid..... Or at least that's what those people constantly highlighting those edge cases seem to imply.

2 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

i think it's insulting that a riven'd paracesis gets out dps by a non riven'd gram prime or that a normal mod with half the mod capacity provides stronger stats that a riven for a weapon. 

1) Gram Prime is vaulted. This automatically limits acquisition for most players while Paracesis is given to you for free just for playing the game. This affects usage stats.

2) Paracesis is almost a mandatory weapon if you're farming Sentients in Veil Proxima because of its passive. This affects usage stats. If the Rubico disposition was nerfed even though it was used almost exclusively in boss/Eidolon fights, then same rules apply here. Meaning, the context of how something is used is secondary to total usage, or simply it is on DE's high tier list and would always have a low disposition even if no one used it for an entire year.

Edited by Jarriaga
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For me, it's more fun to see different stuff being used instead of the same frames and weapons in every other squad I join.

With so many possible buffs and debuffs, any weapon can be made viable even without Rivens. I don't get it why so many people overreact like their dreams are crushed and the game ruined.

If DE removed the Riven system and balanced the weapons instead of Rivens, the outcome would be the same. There will always be people complaining about nerfs. Even if the balancing were done on actual usability instead of usage statistic.

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4 hours ago, Uthael said:

For me, it's more fun to see different stuff being used instead of the same frames and weapons in every other squad I join.

With so many possible buffs and debuffs, any weapon can be made viable even without Rivens. I don't get it why so many people overreact like their dreams are crushed and the game ruined.

If DE removed the Riven system and balanced the weapons instead of Rivens, the outcome would be the same. There will always be people complaining about nerfs. Even if the balancing were done on actual usability instead of usage statistic.

problem with that is DE is infamous in the gaming community with their balancing. it's either all one shot gibbing or barely usable weapon which gets forgotten.

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Le 16/10/2020 à 21:47, kxZyle a dit :

Locking the lower cap at 1.0 would be nice.

The fact that rivens with low disposition still sell for hundreds of plats means the lower cap should be lowered, if anything.

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Please put Snipetron blueprint on Nabelus event as well!! I can't reach mastery 30 because i'm missing this weapon,  since it was related with the plague event and you put plague zaw on nabelus event, you should put snipetron as well!! We can't reach mastery 30 without it.

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