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October 2020 Riven Disposition Update Preview


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I continue to dislike the discrimination between the regular and prime riven values whereby prime variants with rivens can be outperformed by non prime variants with the same riven.  I also dislike delaying the updating of the riven values as it means it isn't clear whether it's worthwhile farming a new prime weapon if you have a riven for the original version.  We may have to wait for months to see whether it's a worthwhile upgrade.

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     To those who are calling for riven disposition to be removed, if D.E were to remove the riven disposition then already powerful weapons would become powerful to the point that it would no longer be worth it to use anything other than the best of the best, and weapons that are bad are pushed even further down. This would then cause a reaction that likely would end in the good weapons getting brought more in line with the bad weapons, rather than the bad weapons being brought up to the good weapons.

     While I agree that keeping the current system exactly as it is is not ideal, removing the system will likely cause more anger within the community due either to nerfs for all rivens or nerfs to weapons themselves, which then punishes those who don't have rivens for powerful weapons. Instead of completely removing the riven disposition system, the riven disposition multipliers should be adjusted so that rivens are still worth it on powerful weapons, while also allowing weaker weapons to compete with the strong weapons. This would be achieved by increasing the lowest riven disposition value above the current 0.5, as well as increasing the highest riven disposition above the current 1.5. Preferably the increase to the highest riven disposition value would be larger than the increase to the lowest riven disposition value.

Edited by (XB1)Alphadestroyr
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7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

You cannot fix low stat weapons with %stat increases from riven mods.

Take the Kraken for instance. This has a riven disposition of 1.53 and it doesn't matter. This is a burst trigger (semi auto) weapon with high recoil, low magazine size, long reload time, 5% crit chance and 13% status chance. It has a lot of things going against it but lets just ignore how unwieldy it is for a moment and lets try to save it with damage numbers.

Ok first off, you can't even do that with a disposition pass. So what if you roll +200% crit chance on a Kraken riven? That would bring its base 5% crit rate to a whopping 15%. It wouldn't matter if a Kraken riven could roll +600% crit because the base crite rate is too low to begin with.

You can nerf Kronen Prime's disposition into the ground and this also doesn't matter. It will not deter anyone from using it because it has base stats and inherent qualities that make it worth using over most melee weapons running combo builds. It has high base damage (most of it slash), high status chance (34%), a stance mod (Sovereign Outcast) with 3 different forced procs for CO (one of which is slash) and 2x and 3x damage multipliers on every hit of its neutral combo. This is an insane weapon.

And this isn't even getting into how melee weapons are unbelievably more powerful than secondary or primary weapons anyway. They have higher mod capacity, better mods (blood rush, weeping wounds etc), massive cleave and no dps downtime (no ammo to run out of and no magazine to reload).

yes i agree with that, it's lazy way to buff weapons by DE, but what can u expect? at least we got little riven disposition compensate than nothing, Also there was a time when melee is weaker than primary / secondary but it just not now.

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On 2020-10-16 at 8:27 PM, tipsy_princess said:

what's with athodai. why it ain't started from 0,5. why it ain't get to the line with other new weapons. why it ain't get nerfed cause everyone has it.

No idea why it didn't start on 0.5.

Everyone having a weapon doesn't ensure a nerf. Everyone using a weapon all time would surely cause a drop in dispo.

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On 2020-10-16 at 9:25 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Fixing most of  these weapons is really not something disposition can (or should) do.  I have gawdly rivens for the Veldt and Argonak, but even if DE specially capped them at 1.75 dispo , they're still going to be weapons I just use because I'm a dork.

(I'm curious what you see as wrong with the Cyanex though?  Unless it's just that it suffers from Covid-notakuvanukor-19.  A common malady among sidearms these days. 😉)

 

The Veldt is the most glaring of these, as it's a 22/22% gun that doesn't offer anything except, well, selective zoom levels. Other single-shot weapons like the Grinlok series, the Latron series, and most sniper rifles have a lot more to offer than what the Veldt delivers.

As for the rest of the people showing their disdain for rivens, I have to say I prefer to bring a weapon that isn't waved around on the Steel Path. There's a lot of fun to be had with status that isn't named Viral!

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On 2020-10-16 at 2:48 PM, (NSW)Blankus said:

So... Mausolon stays at .5? That's pretty awful. 

It really doesn't need rivens. If they had buffed it I'd demand to see the data that says it is anything less than absolutely overpowered.

On 2020-10-16 at 2:48 PM, Vahenir said:

What i dont get is why the corinth is getting boosted further. Its going to obsolete the corinth prime before long because their base damage is the same.

Yeah that's not happening. Prime has 4x the mag size, reloads all shots at once, and fires faster. Prime didn't get buffed alongside it for a reason.

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On 2020-10-16 at 9:38 PM, Voltage said:

Can we just remove Disposition? These arbitrary changes don't make Kronen Prime less compelling than a Telos Boltace. It would be way easier on DE and more fun and consistent for players if every weapon was a Neutral Disposition.

Xoris is a good example of the fundamental issue with Disposition. Glaive Prime for example has better stats, and Xoris still has the worst Disposition.

In 2016 you called these an "endgame modding option", but your actions punish players for using "endgame" mods on the higher end weapons (mostly Primes and variants with good stats). I don't understand how these can be "endgame" when you're punished for using them as such. If MR 8 can have access to Helminth that allows Roar's final damage multiplier to apply to any Warframe, then an "endgame" mod shouldn't be nerfed to the point where it's not even worth slotting. Please consider changes to make this system feel better to use. It doesn't have to be powercreep. You can make every Disposition ~1.00 and see the same weapon usage stats with a playerbase much more likely to sink their teeth into Rivens and feel better about their investment.

Hear! Hear!

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1 hour ago, weirdoldbonw said:

The Veldt is the most glaring of these, as it's a 22/22% gun that doesn't offer anything except, well, selective zoom levels. Other single-shot weapons like the Grinlok series, the Latron series, and most sniper rifles have a lot more to offer than what the Veldt delivers.

 

I feel Veldt does have a little niche in the semi-auto rifle category.  It's more user friendly than the Latron Prime due to its zoom, mag, reload, and predictable recoil.  Because of its RoF, it's  situationally more usable than the Prisma Grinlok, particularly against Corpus.   None of which is scintillating exactly, but I wouldn't expect it to be considering Veldt's just a vanilla weapon matching up against two advanced weapons of higher MR.

The real issue  is the  match up is pointless, since the whole weapon class is designed for a different game than the one we've got.  Riven Disposition can't fix that.

edit:  It's funny though, I would have said Argonak is the most glaring by far off of your list out of the weapons I know well.   It's  much worse than the Veldt at 1HKing things.  And while in theory the second mode gives it versatility, it's just comically bad as a full auto weapon.  Sounds awesome doing it though.  😎

Edited by Tiltskillet
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2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

The real issue  is the  match up is pointless, since the whole weapon class is designed for a different game than the one we've got.  Riven Disposition can't fix that.

Yeah. It makes the sniper rifles feel like an absolute chore to use. I do like the Prisma Grinlok because it does have high enough crit to merit using it for very heavy applications of Hunter Munitions... that and cracking heads :P

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11 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

The base aksomati is already good. It’s obvious they don’t want aksomati prime to be the new one gun to rule them all secondary. then the kuva nukor arrived but that’s another topic. 

10% status increase allows the Aksomati to proc more status often and since it’s an SMG like gun with a very high fire rate it manages to put up stacks of status in less than a second. 

The problem with Aksomati vs Aksomati Prime that I highlighted with Ivara Prime Access is that Aksomati is a direct upgrade. However, this upgrade is slight. If your Riven mod approaches perfection, the gap between base and prime shortens, to the point where Aksomati Prime doesn't feel like an upgrade, doesn't feel different, and feels like Mastery Fodder. This is because the base Aksomati already has enough status chance to still be a crit and status weapon, and -puncture makes it proc Slash more reliably. Having higher disposition means you can surpass 100% critical chance by a larger margin than the Prime (slightly more reliable orange crits), and you also surpass the base damage. What happens here is that with a pretty good Riven, Aksomati Prime has a slightly faster fire rate, and the rest feels almost the exact same.

My favorite weapon is Aksomati, so I hunted down the perfect Riven for myself. However, the Disposition nonsense between variants actually punished me for having a high-end Riven, and made the Prime feel too similar to the weapon I've been using for years and waiting for a Prime of. When Ivara Prime first released, Aksomati had a bugged Disposition that matched the normal. There was a short time where I felt I got a power increase. It wasn't overpowered, it was enjoyable to use, it felt like an upgrade, but it was taken away due to this ridiculous balancing process.

DE preaches on Devstream and Twitter that they don't want to take things away from players, but Riven Mods, the "endgame modding option", just make players feel bad every 90 days and the feeling of power from your mod (which is rarely game-breaking) is taken away.

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3 hours ago, ZeroMR said:

lol

It really was though, its not like the kuva nukor or atamos where those things chain like crazy. It could hit multiple targets sure, but it didn't do it as frequently as you're letting on. As a secondary arca plasmor, those two weapons are very similar, are they good? yeah sure (plasmor less so), however did they get vastly overrated by the playerbase? 100% also this. 

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On 2020-10-17 at 3:48 AM, Vahenir said:

What i dont get is why the corinth is getting boosted further. Its going to obsolete the corinth prime before long because their base damage is the same.

The Corinth prime isn’t even the prime of the Corinth, it’s an entirely different gun. No idea what they took away the only unique thing about the Corinth when they primed it. Still furious 

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13 hours ago, (XB1)Alphadestroyr said:

To those who are calling for riven disposition to be removed, if D.E were to remove the riven disposition then already powerful weapons would become powerful to the point that it would no longer be worth it to use anything other than the best of the best, and weapons that are bad are pushed even further down. This would then cause a reaction that likely would end in the good weapons getting brought more in line with the bad weapons, rather than the bad weapons being brought up to the good weapons. While I agree that keeping the current system exactly as it is is not ideal, removing the system will likely cause more anger within the community due either to nerfs for all rivens or nerfs to weapons themselves, which then punishes those who don't have rivens for powerful weapons. Instead of completely removing the riven disposition system, the riven disposition multipliers should be adjusted so that rivens are still worth it on powerful weapons, while also allowing weaker weapons to compete with the strong weapons. This would be achieved by increasing the lowest riven disposition value above the current 0.5, as well as increasing the highest riven disposition above the current 1.5. Preferably the increase to the highest riven disposition value would be larger than the increase to the lowest riven disposition value.

Paragraphs, my friend 

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On 2020-10-16 at 1:48 PM, Vahenir said:

What i dont get is why the corinth is getting boosted further. Its going to obsolete the corinth prime before long because their base damage is the same.

I have a CC, CD, Fire rate corinth riven and i'm honestly considering switching back at this point. Which sucks after how long it took me to get the prime. I need to test it after the changes but i'm pretty sure I get better burst damage from the base variant now

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Legit ruined one of the best things in the game, why even bother going below 1 half numbers or 0.85 whatever it is.. Dumb, keep it in increments of 0.5 and never go below one.. Hell make the rivens disposition change based on the roll even.. Add another layer of difficulty for getting the best stats. There you go. 

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I don't mean to shame anyone, but the endless, multilayered RNG of rivens is deeply anti-player. It's also the sort of thing that creates a toxic environment if we ever get anything back like raids, because it creates a scenario where the 'optimal' raid group is people with ideal, correct-rolled rivens that you may never be able to get absent the spend of thousands of platinum. I don't blame anyone who has them now for using them, they're in the game, but I think they're bad for the game. It's the absolute worst mechanic Warframe has - something isn't a time investment, or an endgame mechanic, when all there is to it is RNG. It's not a veteran player, elite-tier investment vehicle when player A gets a perfect roll to drop, requiring no Kuva, and someone else who wants the same one could never see it despite hundreds of hours trying.

And all this is ignoring the problems with the disposition system that do, essentially, punish people for trying for their ideal riven on their ideal weapon. I don't think the riven system does what it was supposed to, unless inspiring the purchase of thousands of platinum is the main goal.

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