Thinking about a "disposition" on helminth abilities.

[SuperbDave]

Could we introduce a "disposition" system on helminth? i.e. the more people using a specific ability, the less potent it will be, range, strength, duration. 

that would encourage people to try out more build and be more creative. they are already doing it now with the nerf of roar and eclipse in a less systematic manner.

[Drachnyn]

Abilities arent as interchangeable as weapons. All weapons are in the end supposed to do the same: kill the target you shoot/strike. That doesnt apply to abilities, so dispositions doesnt really make sense there.

[saghzs]

No amount of stat boost can save abilities like Decoy or Airburst or Desiccation.

It's like putting a riven on the stug. Are you gonna deal slightly more damage? yes. Is the weapon actually good now? no.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Take something people despise from rivens and inject it in another part of the game. Why?

[SuperbDave]

Just now, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Take something people despise from rivens and inject it in another part of the game. Why?

why don't people like rivens again?

[SuperbDave]

2 minutes ago, saghzs said:

No amount of stat boost can save abilities like Decoy or Airburst or Desiccation.

It's like putting a riven on the stug. Are you gonna deal slightly more damage? yes. Is the weapon actually good now? no.

I wouldnt say 300%+ damage, 150%+ multishot on dispo 5 weapon "slight" more damage. but hey, I think at least its an attempt to revive a never used weapon into Ima use it sometimes if I have a great riven category. 

[saghzs]

Just now, SuperbDave said:

I wouldnt say 300%+ damage, 150%+ multishot on dispo 5 weapon "slight" more damage. but hey, I think at least its an attempt to revive a never used weapon into Ima use it sometimes if I have a great riven category. 

You clearly have never used the stug then.

Even 1000% damage and Multishot would barely change anything.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 minutes ago, saghzs said:

You clearly have never used the stug then.

Even 1000% damage and Multishot would barely change anything.

The Stug was used to break eidolon Synovia. A riven was used and probably helped with that.

[SuperbDave]

4 minutes ago, saghzs said:

You clearly have never used the stug then.

Even 1000% damage and Multishot would barely change anything.

really don't feel that s a true statemen, so at 1000% damage, per bulb will be doing 750 damage, in comparison, bramma does 850 damage, at a quarter of the firing rate. not even considering stag's passive. I feel its just the degree of adjustment on riven that needs to be re-considered instead the basic concept of it. 

[killerJoke66]

20 minutes ago, SuperbDave said:

Could we introduce a "disposition" system on helminth? i.e. the more people using a specific ability, the less potent it will be, range, strength, duration. 

that would encourage people to try out more build and be more creative. Just a thought

Yea , people should be trying out nyx's mind control amirite ./s  

 

[General-Pacman]

Disposition was added as a bandaid feature because Rivens as a concept were poorly thought and implemented. So no, I don't think adding disposition to other game mechanics is a good idea.

[SuperbDave]

3 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Disposition was added as a bandaid feature because Rivens as a concept were poorly thought and implemented. So no, I don't think adding disposition to other game mechanics is a good idea.

but exactly what's wrong with disposition though? I mean they are already balancing subsumed ability such as roar. 

[Opyt]

3 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Disposition was added as a bandaid feature because Rivens as a concept were poorly thought and implemented. So no, I don't think adding disposition to other game mechanics is a good idea.

Maybe the next step is Dispositions on focus trees, and then we can have individual dispositions on Warframe abilities, so that if a person uses an ability "too much" it suffers stat penalties while abilities that never get used by that individual player will get more power. /s

[saghzs]

8 minutes ago, SuperbDave said:

really don't feel that s a true statemen, so at 1000% damage, per bulb will be doing 750 damage, in comparison, bramma does 850 damage, at a quarter of the firing rate. not even considering stag's passive. I feel its just the degree of adjustment on riven that needs to be re-considered instead the basic concept of it.

Skip to 2:45 if you don't wanna watch the full video.
 

Spoiler

 

 

[Opyt]

1 minute ago, SuperbDave said:

but exactly what's wrong with disposition though? I mean they are already balancing subsumed ability such as roar. 

The problem is not all powers are created equally.  And DE knew that when implementing the Helminth System.

What stat would you "improve" on Decoy that would ever make it better than Resonator?

What stat could you improve on Mind Control to make it anything other than a meme ability?

What stat would you improve on Airburst to make it comparable to Ensnare/Larva?

At that point, you're asking for a lot of work for very little change, and then compounding it by another factor: "Why would I use the ability on its native Warframe instead of putting it on a different one to get a more powerful version?"

[SuperbDave]

2 minutes ago, saghzs said:

Skip to 2:45 if you don't wanna watch the full video.
 

  Hide contents

 

 

the video was about that guy complaining he spent all these kuva and DIDN'T get a good riven. negative status duration on a status weapon? 

[saghzs]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

The Stug was used to break eidolon Synovia. A riven was used and probably helped with that.

Yeah, with a 10-12x damage multiplier from Navigator, Orange crit from the flat crit buffs like adarza and harrow, and volt shield. As well as a 99% armor strip.

Sure, it can do it, but its not at all worth the effort, when pretty much every other gun can kill them without those damage buffs.

[saghzs]

2 minutes ago, SuperbDave said:

the video was about that guy complaining he spent all these kuva and DIDN'T get a good riven. negative status duration on a status weapon? 

Ok, go get yourself a stug with a godly riven and show me how good it is, i can't wait for it.

[deothor]

39 minutes ago, SuperbDave said:

Could we introduce a "disposition" system on helminth? i.e. the more people using a specific ability, the less potent it will be, range, strength, duration. 

Jesus.. Are you working in DE or something?

 

Jokes aside, I'd rather see S#&$e abilities pulled by their ears to surface of actual viability... Or just reworked in general.

[Aadi880]

Just now, SuperbDave said:

but exactly what's wrong with disposition though?

Because rivens have failed miserably on what they were supposed to do.

Rivens were supposed to make weak weapons on par with stronger ones at the cost of a mod slot, except, it has done the exact opposite. It has INCREASED the gap between strong and weak weapons.

Unpopular weapons are unpopular purely because they are REALLY F***ING WEAK. Rivens barely does any help to them because their weak values results in weak boost. THE DISPOSITION AFFECTS PERCENTAGES.

For example, lets assume weapon X and X Prime. X has a damage of 1. X Prime has a damage of 10. Damage difference of 10. X Riven increases damage of X by 500% (dispo 5). For X Prime, its 100% (dispo 1).

Now, with a riven, X has a damage of 5 (5 point increase), and X Prime has a damage of 20 (10 point increase). This results in a damage difference of 15 between X and X Prime.

Do you see the problem now?

The disposition affects percentages. Percentages will boosts strong weapons more than it boosts weaker ones. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what rivens are supposed to do.

Rivens in warframe with disposition ranges of 1 to 5 results in a percentage range of 80% to 400%. However, as you have just seen, a 100% to 500% range doesn't even do the job. The percentage gap on the low regions is just not low enough to equalize weak to strong weapons.

 

Rivens must give additive FLAT boosts that applies before other mods with value increases like 5% to 30% additively so that it can actually reduce the gap between the strong and the weak.

[SuperbDave]

10 minutes ago, Opyt said:

The problem is not all powers are created equally.  And DE knew that when implementing the Helminth System.

What stat would you "improve" on Decoy that would ever make it better than Resonator?

What stat could you improve on Mind Control to make it anything other than a meme ability?

What stat would you improve on Airburst to make it comparable to Ensnare/Larva?

At that point, you're asking for a lot of work for very little change, and then compounding it by another factor: "Why would I use the ability on its native Warframe instead of putting it on a different one to get a more powerful version?"

where if the system is in place, resonator's duration and range will be reduced, people might actually consider decoy with a buffed timer and health. 

it point is so that some ability is strictly better than some other abilities in the current system just as you pointed out. a variable system will help with it in a systematic way instead of DE deciding manually by watching which build on youtube get the most views. 

[SuperbDave]

3 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Because rivens have failed miserably on what they were supposed to do.

Rivens were supposed to make weak weapons on par with stronger ones at the cost of a mod slot, except, it has done the exact opposite. It has INCREASED the gap between strong and weak weapons.

Unpopular weapons are unpopular purely because they are REALLY F***ING WEAK. Rivens barely does any help to them because their weak values results in weak boost. THE DISPOSITION AFFECTS PERCENTAGES.

For example, lets assume weapon X and X Prime. X has a damage of 1. X Prime has a damage of 10. Damage difference of 10. X Riven increases damage of X by 500% (dispo 5). For X Prime, its 100% (dispo 1).

Now, with a riven, X has a damage of 5 (5 point increase), and X Prime has a damage of 20 (10 point increase). This results in a damage difference of 15 between X and X Prime.

Do you see the problem now?

The disposition affects percentages. Percentages will boosts strong weapons more than it boosts weaker ones. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what rivens are supposed to do.

Rivens in warframe with disposition ranges of 1 to 5 results in a percentage range of 80% to 400%. However, as you have just seen, a 100% to 500% range doesn't even do the job. The percentage gap on the low regions is just not low enough to equalize weak to strong weapons.

 

Rivens must give additive FLAT boosts that applies before other mods with value increases like 5% to 30% additively so that it can actually reduce the gap between the strong and the weak.

I just feel like it is the DEGREE that scale off dispo that needs to be adjusted. dispo 1 weapon shouldn't even consider a riven since the riven shouldn't be better than a regular mod.

[(PSN)isbergen]

1 minute ago, SuperbDave said:

I just feel like it is the DEGREE that scale off dispo that needs to be adjusted. dispo 1 weapon shouldn't even consider a riven since the riven shouldn't be better than a regular mod.

There are very few normal mods that give two positive damage buffs (60/60, 90/60, etc) and I can't think of any that give more than 2. However Rivens can get *4* damage buffs on one mod. So why would you ever consider any other mod in that case? Even for a dispo 1 weapon? In fact people will want that riven so much for that already god tier weapon they will ignore all other weapons and pay 1000's of plat for that groll riven on a dispo 1 weapon. And that is how we are now under control of the riven mafia. RNG strikes again.

[SuperbDave]

1 minute ago, (PS4)isbergen said:

There are very few normal mods that give two positive damage buffs (60/60, 90/60, etc) and I can't think of any that give more than 2. However Rivens can get *4* damage buffs on one mod. So why would you ever consider any other mod in that case? Even for a dispo 1 weapon? In fact people will want that riven so much for that already god tier weapon they will ignore all other weapons and pay 1000's of plat for that groll riven on a dispo 1 weapon. And that is how we are now under control of the riven mafia. RNG strikes again.

its not just the amount of buff that matters, would you consider a "god roll" riven with positive crit dmaage/chance, and negative zoom if their effect is at 40%? in comparison when a regular vital sense s at 120% 

[Serafim_94]

1 час назад, SuperbDave сказал:

why don't people like rivens again?

Because they are garbage on every level.

RNG hell? Check.

Insane grind? Check.

Balancing bandaid? Check.

Continious salt generation? Check.