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One idea that would make conclave playable


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In a nutshell : Tenno Rathum or Arena. We’re fighting AI controlled tenno. 
 

Sure why not. As long I don’t have to deal with XXXmLGPrONOScOPeRTEnO696969XXX man childs.

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better idea:

kill off conclave and let the rewards go to Steel path. a mode people actually play would benefit, a mode nobody plays gets a long-awaited send-off. everybody wins, save for the 12 people that still play conclave, but I like those odds. 

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If adding bots made people play it then suddenly bots are no longer needed at the same time.

Really the issue is the learning curve and people just not that interested in PvP. Though anyone who does want PvP you can easily get into it by joining the community for it.

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47 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

better idea:

kill off conclave and let the rewards go to Steel path. a mode people actually play would benefit, a mode nobody plays gets a long-awaited send-off. everybody wins, save for the 12 people that still play conclave, but I like those odds. 

Be realistic DE will never do that they would rather leave it to rot with solair rails

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49 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Watchout the 4 people who play conclave will get angry when suggest that no one plays the mode

And the 49.999.996 players will be there laughing at their elitism.

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7 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

And the 49.999.996 players will be there laughing at their elitism.

Careful they'll say you're toxic while they just make massive strawmans against you like you're complaining cause you're not full rank when you are and have the rewards out of it.

Edited by (XB1)The Neko Otaku
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I'd be fine with being able to fight bots. DE should never attempt to focus on PvP, this game doesn't need to juggle two kinds of encounters at once, it should just focus on what it does best - PvE. There's a metric boatload of PvP games out there already.

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On 2020-10-18 at 12:31 AM, trst said:

Really the issue is the learning curve and people just not that interested in PvP.

Disagree, I find that the issue is that Warframe's parkour is not conducive to an enjoyable player vs player experience for the majority of people looking to have fun. High speed with the ability to turn on a dime can be incredibly frustrating to play against, no matter which part of the curve you're at.

Such high speeds are generally limited by several factors in other PvP games, be it disabling your weapon whilst you're in the air, limited ability to alter your course, short animations telegraphing what you're doing, cooldowns or having it be an option only available to weaker hit and run characters.

In Warframe there is really no limit. We instantly go from 0-60mph in whatever direction we wish, we can bounce off walls and accelerate at the same speed in the opposite direction on a whim, we can roll for a little mid air boost and we can even glide if we want to to make it even harder to predict movement. And we can do all of this whilst carrying whatever weapons we want.

As someone who's played a fair chunk of PvP in everything from CoD to Counter Strike to Smite to Hunt: Showdown, Warframe just isn't a game for it.

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It was suggested (when it was first released) that DE make a "Dog Days" style PvP right down to the cheesy music. No mods, no abilities just two teams of four with super soakers.

Just think of the possibilities!

Tennogen swimsuits for your favourite frame Tenno? 

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Conclave 2.0 was actually good when the mods were more powerful and you used your guns in combination with your melee but if you chose to go melee only you had to get good. It went to S#&$ when melee got buffed to have forced stuns and slow downs. Now you have things like the Telos Boltace running rampant.

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8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Disagree, I find that the issue is that Warframe's parkour is not conducive to an enjoyable player vs player experience for the majority of people looking to have fun. High speed with the ability to turn on a dime can be incredibly frustrating to play against, no matter which part of the curve you're at.

Such high speeds are generally limited by several factors in other PvP games, be it disabling your weapon whilst you're in the air, limited ability to alter your course, short animations telegraphing what you're doing, cooldowns or having it be an option only available to weaker hit and run characters.

In Warframe there is really no limit. We instantly go from 0-60mph in whatever direction we wish, we can bounce off walls and accelerate at the same speed in the opposite direction on a whim, we can roll for a little mid air boost and we can even glide if we want to to make it even harder to predict movement. And we can do all of this whilst carrying whatever weapons we want.

As someone who's played a fair chunk of PvP in everything from CoD to Counter Strike to Smite to Hunt: Showdown, Warframe just isn't a game for it.

Because it's not a standard brown shooter like CoD or CS but is more like GunZ or S4 League which are based around learning the convoluted movement systems with twitch aiming. We do have even more mobility and freedom with our weapons than even those games allow but still they're in an entirely different genera of shooter to CoD.

Warframe just isn't the type of shooter people are used to for PvP thus the learning curve beats down most players.

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1 minute ago, trst said:

Because it's not a standard brown shooter like CoD or CS but is more like GunZ or S4 League which are based around learning the convoluted movement systems with twitch aiming. We do have even more mobility and freedom with our weapons than even those games allow but still they're in an entirely different genera of shooter to CoD.

Warframe just isn't the type of shooter people are used to for PvP thus the learning curve beats down most players.

I feel like... this entirely ignores everything I posted.

Allow me to clarify, Dota and LoL have high learning curves compared to other PvP games. A learning curve is not what beats down players. What does beat players down is a lack of fun. Warframe's movement system does not lend itself to "fun" for the vast majority when trying to shoot down enemy players, which is what I outlined in my post.

The reason Warframe isn't the type of shooter people are used to for PvP is because this type of shooter isn't good for PvP. There's a reason that CoD and Battlefield play so similarly, there's a reason that developers don't go overboard with their movement systems. Yes, it can make games seem rather generic, but that's because over the years and years of shooter game development they've realised that that's exactly what people enjoy the most and gets the biggest audience.

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6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I feel like... this entirely ignores everything I posted.

Allow me to clarify, Dota and LoL have high learning curves compared to other PvP games. A learning curve is not what beats down players. What does beat players down is a lack of fun. Warframe's movement system does not lend itself to "fun" for the vast majority when trying to shoot down enemy players, which is what I outlined in my post.

The reason Warframe isn't the type of shooter people are used to for PvP is because this type of shooter isn't good for PvP. There's a reason that CoD and Battlefield play so similarly, there's a reason that developers don't go overboard with their movement systems. Yes, it can make games seem rather generic, but that's because over the years and years of shooter game development they've realised that that's exactly what people enjoy the most and gets the biggest audience.

I get what you're trying to say, but the words you chose are highly nonstandard when discussing PvP in games:

Learning curve - not common vocabulary for games, too vague. Most people instead refer to Skill floor and Skill ceiling, since it's more specific.

"fun for majority" and "not good for PvP" both highly subjective and not a very useful way to discuss the issue. Better again to talk about Skill floor / ceiling, and refer to how modification of those two can make players frustrated or feel like they're not improving.

I think your point is better stated as follows:

"High mobility shooting games have a very low skill floor and a very high skill ceiling. This means that if new players play against experienced players (due to a lack of proper matchmaking, smurfing, etc...) then the new players have almost zero chance to perform well. It makes the situation generally unwelcoming for new players. However, for experienced players looking to always improve, this situation is ideal because the high skill ceiling means they will always have room for improvement."

So, one option is to limit player mobility severely, thereby drastically raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. This is the technique used by Battlefield and CoD, as you mentioned. It's very easy to start playing these games as a new player, because you can generally perform decently well on your first day even if you're not that experienced with PvP games. These games generally have a large influx of new players over time because of this choice, but lose out on retaining experienced players. [Although, cosmetics, events, other time limited rewards, FOMO, etc... can cover up this flaw.] 

Warframe's PvP is the opposite. And it has extra problems, like a total lack of proper matchmaking, game-breaking exploits that make players spend more time in the skybox than the map itself, cheaters & exploiters never get banned, etc... But certainly the main problem is the low skill floor / high skill ceiling combo makes it unwelcoming for new players. The addition of shield gating actually brought the skill floor up and skill ceiling down a bit, but it's still not enough. If DE wants conclave to be popular, they need to either make other drastic changes to raise skill floor / lower skill ceiling, or to implement proper matchmaking & fix exploits, ban cheaters etc... 

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Heres a few ideas i think would make it good. 

 

A) make it like titanfall kinda 

 

Player starts out as an operator. Score kills to unlock your warframe. Score kills with warframe to unlock your mech. Score kills with the mech to unlock your railjack. This would need to take place on open world maps with 8 to 16 players. 

B) players start out with full energy and there is no energy or ammo replenishment unless you die. This would create a reliance on melee once you run out of ammo and energy and give you less of an advantage the longer you are alive. 

C) no mods. All base stats are equal at 300 health and shield. Frames with no shields would have them for this mode. 

D) no mods. 

Everyone is unmodded with base stats for abilities. 

E) pve stats for weapons instead of separate balance

F) limited weapon selection

Perhaps only the mk1 gear. A limited selection means easier balance and fairness. 

Only t1 amps

Only basic mech weaponry

Only sigma series railjack gear

Mechs and railjacks usage would be timed, or until you run out of ammo. 

G) parkour limitations. Bullet jump and roll would get cooldowns. 

H) the ability to summon specters or liches or companions earned with kills / objectives / randomly placed caches with powerup items in them such as beacons for Summons, special weapons (time limited), time limited mods (intensify continuity stretch streamline), archgun/archwing summons. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I get what you're trying to say, but the words you chose are highly nonstandard when discussing PvP in games:

Learning curve - not common vocabulary for games, too vague. Most people instead refer to Skill floor and Skill ceiling, since it's more specific.

"fun for majority" and "not good for PvP" both highly subjective and not a very useful way to discuss the issue. Better again to talk about Skill floor / ceiling, and refer to how modification of those two can make players frustrated or feel like they're not improving.

I think your point is better stated as follows:

"High mobility shooting games have a very low skill floor and a very high skill ceiling. This means that if new players play against experienced players (due to a lack of proper matchmaking, smurfing, etc...) then the new players have almost zero chance to perform well. It makes the situation generally unwelcoming for new players. However, for experienced players looking to always improve, this situation is ideal because the high skill ceiling means they will always have room for improvement."

So, one option is to limit player mobility severely, thereby drastically raising the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling. This is the technique used by Battlefield and CoD, as you mentioned. It's very easy to start playing these games as a new player, because you can generally perform decently well on your first day even if you're not that experienced with PvP games. These games generally have a large influx of new players over time because of this choice, but lose out on retaining experienced players. [Although, cosmetics, events, other time limited rewards, FOMO, etc... can cover up this flaw.] 

Warframe's PvP is the opposite. And it has extra problems, like a total lack of proper matchmaking, game-breaking exploits that make players spend more time in the skybox than the map itself, cheaters & exploiters never get banned, etc... But certainly the main problem is the low skill floor / high skill ceiling combo makes it unwelcoming for new players. The addition of shield gating actually brought the skill floor up and skill ceiling down a bit, but it's still not enough. If DE wants conclave to be popular, they need to either make other drastic changes to raise skill floor / lower skill ceiling, or to implement proper matchmaking & fix exploits, ban cheaters etc... 

Cheaters would likely be banned or suspended if players record the cheats and exploits and submit tickets with proof. The team as far as i have experienced have been pretty good bout that kidna thing 

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1 minute ago, Sevek7 said:

I get what you're trying to say, but the words you chose are highly nonstandard when discussing PvP in games:

Learning curve

This was their choice of word, not my own.

2 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

"fun for majority" and "not good for PvP" both highly subjective and not a very useful way to discuss the issue. Better again to talk about Skill floor / ceiling, and refer to how modification of those two can make players frustrated or feel like they're not improving.

Subjective? For an individual. Objectively you can look at successful games and games that have flopped and make logical conclusions. The vast majority of PvP shooters utilise a regular movement system. Innovation exists absolutely, but not without limitations.

The logical conclusion when looking at successful PvP shooters is that a regular movement system is good for PvP, and due to the number of players it's more fun for the majority.

5 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

I think your point is better stated as follows:

"High mobility shooting games have a very low skill floor and a very high skill ceiling. This means that if new players play against experienced players (due to a lack of proper matchmaking, smurfing, etc...) then the new players have almost zero chance to perform well.

But that's not my point, that's their point, so why would I say that? Did you quote the correct person?:suspicion:

This is literally what I'm arguing against, that the main issue with Warframe's PvP is the floor/ceiling disparity. It is an issue, absolutely, but I believe the main issue is frankly that Warframe's PvP just sucks due to the type of game that Warframe is. I'm not posting as someone at the skill floor, struggling to kill players at the top and finding it unenjoyable. I'm someone who was (several years ago anyway) at the ceiling, not having fun shooting similarly skilled opponents.

I'm maxed out with Teshin, I have numerous conclave skins and a K:D ratio I'm rather happy with, and yet I'd rather watch paint dry than play Conclave again. Bored is better than unhappy.

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