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Does Loki actually need a rework?


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So the current Warframe formula is divided between damage, support and self sustainability, with some warframes being better at others in these areas, of course

Loki is a very, very old warframe, with powers that haven't been touched for AGES, and it shows because none of them can be categorized in any of these 3 sections i just mentioned.

Which poses the question, does he need a rework?

He just kinda works, he does his own thing, and it's just one thing over and over again, invisibility+radial disarm

He has an outdated passive, a meh 1 and 3

I definitely wouldn't want to give him a rework where he has damage and support buffs because that would ruin every loki build completely

 

I just want him to have renewed and completely different Utility abilities for current gameplay 

Abilities that still don't care about strength

What do you think?

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He at the very least needs an Oberon/Vauban level rework when he gets added functionality/synergy added and maybe one ability fully reworked.

The major problem with his Decoy and S.Teleport is that Decoy has no scaling (the Decoy + Banish combo is a clunky bandaid at best) and Teleport is only relevant when it can be used to abuse/skip something.

 

Even basic functionality like holding S.Teleport to swap with your decoy regardless of los would go a long way in helping him.

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24 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

So the current Warframe formula is divided between damage, support and self sustainability

While I agree on the topic of Loki getting some love, I don't agree at all with that sentence.

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One or two useful abilities does not mean the frame is fine. The standard should be 4 useful abilities, preferably 4 useful abilities that work with each other to form a cohesive moveset.

Decoy is utterly useless and Switch Teleport is almost utterly useless except for a few niche cases. Invisibility functions as advertised, it's ok but a bit bland.

Radial Disarm works well at its job, but it's outclassed by AoE abilities that can just kill or hard-CC enemies. It's tricky to find a way to fix this because Loki isn't really based on killing, but there are currently so many better options for area control. Maybe have it mess with enemy aggro so they can't chase you properly, then grant a "flanking" damage bonus when targeting disoriented enemies from behind? I dunno, there are lots of different ways to make Radial Disarm a better AoE because the ability is so basic, especially compared to modern Warframe design.

Loki probably isn't at the top of the list for "Frames that need a rework", but he's up there. I think too many people believe he's fine because Invisibility is good, while failing to consider his other abilities due to the simple fact that they never use them.

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Loki absolutely needs a rework.  He is branded as THE stealth warframe to use but Ivara is superior in almost every way.  With the augment that lets her walk through lasers and the ability to actually deal out significant damage with the Artemis Bow, she is the superior choice for Spy Missions.

Think of it this way, I have Loki Prime all modded up and I literally never use him.

Thoughts on Improvements:

Let Loki put down more than one Decoy with repeated casting or charge up one Decoy to make it capable of actually doing damage to enemies.

As mentioned above, the auto teleporting between him and his Decoy upon holding the ability would be a great thing to add.

My recommendation would be to adjust his Fourth ability so that the disarm does not need the augment to do radiation damage.

His passive is pretty much useless.  I only use Wall Latch when I'm doing Riven Challenges.  I'm not sure what to replace it with, maybe something similar to the Skiajati's passive of Invisibility upon Finishers or Faster Reload while invisible.

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It's a paradox. His theme really doesn't lend itself to Warframe's "kill as many S#&$ as you can before your A****** allies kill everything before you"-gameplay loop.


He's good in Spy missions, even better than Ivara as he can run around and do stuff while cloaked, and switch teleport lets him bypass things. He's full of nifty little utilities but no killing power.

 

There's little DE can do to make him work in Warframe without fundamentally changing his identity.

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While, I agree loki definitely needs a buff, there's just one problem he's ok where he is balanced enough to not get nerfed or tweaked. That's probably different from what I said in the beginning and to quote reb here "It's not about out-gunning, its about Out-smarting them," Only thing really needing anything is his 1... but other than that he's fine  

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I’ve recently took dust away from loki for helminth system, so that what  I have:

1) Loadout with perception on 4 slot for spy missions.

2) Greedy Pull on 3 slot for endless missions.

And I like spy build. But it’s so niche that it’s shame.

Greedy pull build one is kinda fun, since it’s max range build, disarm+pull+melee brrrrr. Actually works with very bad teammates on arbitrations.

But overall his kit feels very underwhelming. Damn it I think Grendel has more fun skills to use(And actually awesome on RailJack mission). Decoy must be invulnerable at very least,switch teleport is useless at 99% situations (only good for cheesing spy missions). Radial disarm is nice, but do nothing really much. If it would buff allies weapons damage by fixed number like 4% for each disarmed target.. tho... Maybe maybe...

PS Teleport gets completely useless after adding operators. Now you can get out of any crappy situations much easier and safer

Edited by SpiritTeA
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13 minutes ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

It's a paradox. His theme really doesn't lend itself to Warframe's "kill as many S#&$ as you can before your A****** allies kill everything before you"-gameplay loop.


He's good in Spy missions, even better than Ivara as he can run around and do stuff while cloaked, and switch teleport lets him bypass things. He's full of nifty little utilities but no killing power.

 

There's little DE can do to make him work in Warframe without fundamentally changing his identity.

There is still a lot that can be done without fundamentally changing his abilities. Make Disarm explode enemy weapons dealing a blast proc with some damage, debuff enemies fighting his Decoy, some form of buff to invis melee to appeal to his original playstyle.

He'd never be a meta frame but that's an awful standard to hold frames to with how op the top% are.

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In my opinion he needs a rework because his stats and kit is out to date. With the armor changes he got his armor up but his health pool and shields are low. In the old days it was the exchange for speed and invisibility but since then more frames were added with better stats. Also he cannot regen or self sustain which is why he is squishy and has no chance in higher levels if out of energy.

Decoy is an old ability, not scaling at all, also not moving so cannot distract enemies on higher level like Octavia's resonator. Few hit and it dies. Switch teleport only useful if you want to replace your position with your decoy in spy missions but since then the game changed a lot. Still useful ability in some situations but it could be better just combined with something or give Loki a similar quiver esque ability switch option so you can put the decoy, switch teleport and a third optional ability there and then you have 1 free slot for ability. 

Invisibility does it's job and it was nerfed sometimes ago so the duration is not so great. Honestly Octavia and Ivara are the best frames in these departments one because the duration is almost infinite in exchange of speed while the other just drop her metronome and almost done.

Radial disarm is still useful, but it could be a faster ability and not requiring you to do a slow cast animation. Loki could have his combined abilities in his first slot and can get some kind of self sustaining ability as a second one. 

Also some stat boosts on him could drastically change his survivability and the enjoyment.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

There's little DE can do to make him work in Warframe without fundamentally changing his identity.

I don’t necessarily agree. There’s little they can do to make him compete with the top frames, sure, but he doesn’t have to be part of the meta to be viable. We already have weapon oriented frames that use their abilities for utility, Loki is no different.

He’ll never be able to nuke a room with one click, but there’s a lot they could do to make him a more fun frame to play without changing his identity. I’m no game developer but I would start with adding more buffs to his kit to supplement his weapon killing.

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I use a very high range disarm build to run kuva requiem survival.   Works absolutely fantastic.

Stops not only me but my entire team from eating bombard rockets every few seconds.  Makes the mission quite chill and going 2 hrs is fairly straightforward (you gotta watch for their little sheevs later though as they deal some nasty slash procs).

I don't need a damage buff tbh.  Its a rare mission I don't end on top kills/damage just by using my weapons.  And as I play with randoms, I've seen the comparison with nuke frames.  You do have to put in the effort but I'm still carving through level 2-300 using my melee with no problems.   What kind of content are you doing that this isn't enough and you need a damage buff?

Yes, I agree his 1 and 3 are mostly useless and I can't remember the last time I used either, but his 2 and 4 give him so much survivability and crowd control, he's immensley viable in most content just as a weapon platform.   And we have weapons that are so strong, a damage buff is literal overkill.

I don't want every frame to have nuke abilities.  Some are fine having utility abilities, like loki.  And if you've got trouble surviving using a frame that's invisible and disarms all enemies in a 50m radius,  then its not the frame that's the problem. 

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Loki does need a rework, but you have to get past his rabid fanbase first.

that said I don't really know what would make him objectively better, without copying other frames. maybe allowing him to teleport to a specified location without needing to switch with an enemy/Decoy would be a good start, and perhaps give his disarm the ability to make an enemy's gun explode, dealing damage to them and disarming them in the process? stuff like that.

 

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23 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

Yes, I agree his 1 and 3 are mostly useless and I can't remember the last time I used either, but his 2 and 4 give him so much survivability and crowd control, he's immensley viable in most content just as a weapon platform.   And we have weapons that are so strong, a damage buff is literal overkill.

I never said i wanted buffs and nukes on Loki

All i wanted was new tricks, i want decoy and switch teleport to combine into one ability

I want new type of invisibility, the one we have is very straightforward and redundant.

And, to be honest, his 4 is just not creative at all

 

This is my opinion with loki, which i fully understand if someone disagrees with them

I see him as this gimmick warframe that has cheap and simple powers but can do multiple things with little modding, i want to enrich this idea 

Add new tricks, shapeshifting or image copying instead of invisibility for example

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Loki was my starter frame back in 2013 when stealth was more of a thing than it is today (which let's be honest it wasn't much of a thing even then) and honestly it feels like he hasn't left that year. He's a frame of the past, so far in the past he seems to have been forgotten by the dev team. He desperately needs to be revitalised.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

So the current Warframe formula is divided between damage, support and self sustainability, with some warframes being better at others in these areas, of course ...

I would also add convenience to this list. After recently looking at my own profile, I discovered that Loki-prime is my most used frame. And then, for some time I contemplated why I pick up Loki over other frames for various missions. I did 80% of Steel Path solo with Loki, use him for all kuva siphons/floods, most of rescues and spies, all exterminations and sabotages, most of syndicate missions with medallion hunting, all mining/fishing, a lot of assassinations, lich hunting, all railjack, basically 80% of things. Loki can pretty comfortably solo Steel path interceptions, except new convoluted corpus ship map. Also, Helminth gave him a new life because you can replace either decoy or teleport with whatever you fancy for even more cheese. So, my main conclusion after thinking a bit about it is convenience.

Sometimes, of course, things get messy. But still, I can take solo on Steel path stalker or sentinels and deal with either of these just fine with Loki and operator. Also, I have put only a single forma into my Loki. His kit is not perfect, might use a tiny bit of tweaking, but Loki is the pinnacle of utility and convenience. He has perfect synergy with operator, on par with Limbo, and I tend to use operator a lot.

Why Loki is convenient? Mostly, because of mobility and invisibility.

Can his powers be tweaked without destroying the kit? Probably. Decoy is Ok sometimes but very situational. The only time I use it is during rescue or if there is a need to teleport in spy vaults. So, decoy gets replaced with some Helminth abilities first. Teleport is actually fine if it does not glitch, which it frequently does. Invisibility and disarm are fine as they are imho.

To sum it up, I think, tweaking decoy a bit, maybe making it similar to Saryn's molt, and fixing teleport glitching should be sufficient. Loki is already overpowered as is. I am afraid that any major positive tweaking would have to be balanced with some negative tweaking by fumbling with invisibility duration or disarm range, which might simply ruin the kit, so maybe better to stay out of it.

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making loki great again:

-his 1 has infinite hp. Swapping with your decoy causes your decoy to become a decoy spectre. It moves around, and summons a secondary decoy. You can repeat this on secondary decoys. on demand, you can summon a small entourage of aggro-attracting minions.

-his 2 is unchanged.

-his 3 grants 2 seconds of immortality, moddable, upon successful teleport. Swapping with an enemy makes them irradiated - all enemies target it briefly) for 3 seconds, during which time loses all armor and receives +500% damage. This, too, moddable by strength and duration. Sleight of hand and timing can seriously screw over some enemies, and the temporary invulnerability let's you jump into the fray and be more offensive - also makes this ability worth using in combat.

- his 4 disarms enemies. For each enemy disarmed, loki gains 5% movement speed for the duration of his 4. This makes it an excellent escape tool, and also a great rushdown option. And doesn't turn it into a nuke.

 

 

this makes him a lightning fast trickster. You will be teleporting all over the place, striking unseen, as your enemies shoot at your decoys - sometimes their own allies - while running extremely fast.

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loki is class C warframe.

Class A warframes: Frost, Gara, Xaku, Ivara, Revenant, Hildryn, Grendel, Wukong, Atlas, Nidus, Hydroid, Excalibur, Baruuk, Valkyr, Inaros, Oberon

Class B: Nezha, Harrow, Titania, Gauss, Volt, Trinity, Rhino, Ash, Protea, Saryn, Garuda, Octavia, Mesa, Limbo,Vauban. Equinox, Nova, Nekros, Wisp. Khora

Class C: Nyx, Loki, Ember, Zephyr, Chroma, Banshee,Mirage, Mag,

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  In my opinion he does not really need to be changed but just a bit tuned. This is how I would go:

 

1) Decoy is immortal and is prioritized by any enemy in range. He constantly shoot causing noise and luring surrounding not alerted enemies. 

   hold 1 to switch position with Decoy

2) Stealth : Any enemy killed with a stealth kill does not emit sound and his corpse is insta destroyed without alerting surrounding enemies.

3) Switch teleport: Mark an enemy or ally, the next ally or enemy on which you use the skill will be switched with the marked one. Hold 3 to switch the marked ally/enemy with yourself.

4) Disarm: Increase range to 35 meters.

Passive: Stealth finisher attacks are 100% faster. Also  breaking the chain of Stealth kill affinity bonus does not reset it but only remove 1 stack (for example from 500% to 400%)

 

Synergies:

While in Stealth 

1) Decoy: Decoy will not shoot or make any sound, enemies who enter in LOS with him will be lured to investigate without alerting others or trigger alarms.

3) Any ally switched will be covered in stealth for the remaining duration of the ability

4) Disarm will not alert the enemies disarmed.

(+ any ability cast is silent)

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

What do you think?

I think it's a bad idea for Loki—And a great idea for an entirely different frame.

That's not to say that his kit couldn't use a refresh, to some degree, but it needs to still closely resemble his current kit.

For example: Decoy and Switch Teleport are "throw away" skills for many as they have generally limited applications. These can actually be lumped into the same power block by either letting the player switch between them (Ivara's trick arrows) or by lumping them together (Vauban's Bastille/Vortex) which opens up a new skill option.

Aim it at nothing? It's a decoy

Aim it at a player? It's a switch teleport.

Aim it at an enemy NPC? It's a switch teleport that turns the NPC into a decoy and applies their HP/Armor/Shields to the decoy as the NPC is trapped inside it until it either dies, the timer runs out,  or it's released because it got used on a different mob.

For Loki, I'd prefer they added some type of phantom pain/Link ability where once activated it throws all threat in the area on Loki and gives all the damage Loki received/receives to a marked/local target for a period of time and ends with him at full HP but has a cooldown before being able to re-use it.

 

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

So the current Warframe formula is divided between damage, support and self sustainability, with some warframes being better at others in these areas, of course

Loki is a very, very old warframe, with powers that haven't been touched for AGES, and it shows because none of them can be categorized in any of these 3 sections i just mentioned.

Which poses the question, does he need a rework?

He just kinda works, he does his own thing, and it's just one thing over and over again, invisibility+radial disarm

He has an outdated passive, a meh 1 and 3

I definitely wouldn't want to give him a rework where he has damage and support buffs because that would ruin every loki build completely

 

I just want him to have renewed and completely different Utility abilities for current gameplay 

Abilities that still don't care about strength

What do you think?

His decoy needs to be a non-damaging specter version of Wukong’s double that either stands pat or attacks without actually causing damage...like a Specter.

It should look just like your Loki because the decoy isn’t fooling anyone...not visually appropriate for the Loki “trickster” theme to have a low-Rez hologram popping off lex rounds repeatedly.

And then he will be good.

Extend his disarm radius a bit and he will be perfect.

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73
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8 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

So the current Warframe formula is divided between damage, support and self sustainability, with some warframes being better at others in these areas, of course

Loki is a very, very old warframe, with powers that haven't been touched for AGES, and it shows because none of them can be categorized in any of these 3 sections i just mentioned.

Which poses the question, does he need a rework?

He just kinda works, he does his own thing, and it's just one thing over and over again, invisibility+radial disarm

He has an outdated passive, a meh 1 and 3

I definitely wouldn't want to give him a rework where he has damage and support buffs because that would ruin every loki build completely

 

I just want him to have renewed and completely different Utility abilities for current gameplay 

Abilities that still don't care about strength

What do you think?

Radial disarm and his invis are insanely good.

 

Decoy sucks. Switch teleport sucks. 

The only use ive ever found for ST is cheesing some spy missions but other frames (ivara, wukong, wisp) can do that better and his decoy might set off alarms.

 

Id be happy enough if they made decoy not take damage (like a hologram) and allowed switch teleport to be a straight up teleport. 

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