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Does Loki actually need a rework?


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8 hours ago, trst said:

There is still a lot that can be done without fundamentally changing his abilities. Make Disarm explode enemy weapons dealing a blast proc with some damage, debuff enemies fighting his Decoy, some form of buff to invis melee to appeal to his original playstyle.

He'd never be a meta frame but that's an awful standard to hold frames to with how op the top% are.

Not that I'm against tweaking Loki a bit. But this here really means you nerf the top %

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DE needs to rework Loki's 3rd since they killed Plague star. If not its one of the best abilities to speed run Drones for 6-8min Plague runs. If DE killed it, they need to kill this ability also. No more use.

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Loki would logically need a rework. He was hinted as the "tactical" frame in the early days of wf and was mobile, invisible(with the potential of destroying any assassination target) and had a kind of meaningfull ultimate back then.

There has been so much diversity added in the game that his set doesn't reflect any more the tactical aspect while beeing invisible and desarming things is not as tactical or powerfull as other things, so he has no more identity.

Is he playable? Yes certainly, his kit works in a lot of areas in the game, and honestly with a good melee, in tilesets with corridors he will stand his ground quite well and kill things pretty efficiently at melee genre even in SP, invisible + carnis set + smite infusion + maybe a good kerratinos riven(you basically play it for its range, its underwhelming damage wise but it's the power of invisibility it makes poor weapons viable) and it can do some work for sure but at the end of the day you are playing a mechanic and not a frame.

Edited by Galuf
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12 hours ago, (PS4)zj0ker20 said:

Loki absolutely needs a rework.  He is branded as THE stealth warframe to use but Ivara is superior in almost every way.  With the augment that lets her walk through lasers and the ability to actually deal out significant damage with the Artemis Bow, she is the superior choice for Spy Missions.

Think of it this way, I have Loki Prime all modded up and I literally never use him.

Thoughts on Improvements:

Let Loki put down more than one Decoy with repeated casting or charge up one Decoy to make it capable of actually doing damage to enemies.

As mentioned above, the auto teleporting between him and his Decoy upon holding the ability would be a great thing to add.

My recommendation would be to adjust his Fourth ability so that the disarm does not need the augment to do radiation damage.

His passive is pretty much useless.  I only use Wall Latch when I'm doing Riven Challenges.  I'm not sure what to replace it with, maybe something similar to the Skiajati's passive of Invisibility upon Finishers or Faster Reload while invisible.

The Wall Latch passive is far from useless. It's best used in conjunction with Arcane Arachne and the Proton mod set to give Loki massive damage with weapons. The only issues are that Arcane Arachne is a rare Arcane for some inane reason and not everybody likes farming Jupiter for mod sets.

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Iirc, Decoy 'deploys a holographic doppelganger of Loki, drawing incoming fire'. 

I'm pretty sure you can't hurt/kill a hologram. 

Imo, Decoy just needs to be immortal, relying solely on power duration, problem solved. 

As for his passive, I agree that it's very outdated. I was thinking maybe increased shield regen when invisible. 

Switch Teleport should just be fully redone or replaced, the only use it has is giving allies invulnerability with the augment. Which is kinda weird, cause I'm fairly certain they won't enjoy being randomly teleported around. 

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Rethinking loki to match current warframe meta is an idea, but honestly i dont think thats the solution here. Because even if you did you would just have another flavour of frame who cant die and either stunlocks or nukes entire rooms. 

Lokis kit does work, just not in the vast majority of lucrative gamemodes. I think what we need is more gameplay options so that all these frames with different specialties can find a place to shine. 

Maybe like, a speedrun obstacle course/ tower climb.

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At the rate DE is going, it would be better if they never touch loki lol. I think his decoy could be given something to make it a lot more useable, like how the conclave one could shoot at opponents like a turret and deal serious if not fatal damage until they changed it or I think they did, haven't touched conclave since. I wish his invisibility was given something extra since they just gave it to everyone.. via transference. I mean they also get the benefit of being invincible during to too.

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IMO, Loki is mostly just a worse Ash whose only reason to use over the latter is Radial Disarm and a few Decoy and Switch Teleport gimmicks.  Ash has generally better stats, a better invis (a little shorter, but cheaper, has the stagger effect, and a better augment), a generally more useful teleport, generally better augments, and a better passive.  And, as clunky as Bladestorm is these days, it can still do a lot of damage, inflicts hard CC on targets, and can even build combo counter with the augment.

 

And considering Ash needs some work himself, Loki definitely needs some work.

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In all honesty he seems fine. Quite niche pick but he's fine. Something I wouldn't say about few other frames.

 

It'd be nice if his decoy was updated to actually use his guns (or predetermined guns) with strenght being bonus damage modifier, so he could use it as some form of a turret.

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He already has a rework in the game. It's the Silver Grove spectre.

If there is a way in the future to capture/harvest the spectres to use with Helmy....how many of you would actually take the Silver Grove spectre powers and put them on Loki? 

There are some good examples of how to use Loki effectively and funwise in here. There are also some showings of people that only know KILL KILL KILL is the only way to play. 

Players do not know how to play the frames so they say REWORK to attempt to make the frames play the way some other frame does.

 

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14 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

For example: Decoy and Switch Teleport are "throw away" skills for many as they have generally limited applications. These can actually be lumped into the same power block by either letting the player switch between them (Ivara's trick arrows) or by lumping them together (Vauban's Bastille/Vortex) which opens up a new skill option.

I've been saying this for about a year now and it always falls on deaf ears.

People just say "You're playing him wrong" while ignoring that he doesn't actually do anything other than walk around invisible with a big weapon, even worse he can be made irrelevant by a single Octavia showing up because she does damage, CC and invisibility.

Not much different from people who cling to Nyx's 4 augment as the reason to play her, despite Chaos just being a mass Radiation proc and Mind Control being almost completely useless.

People create the strawman of "Not everything needs to be a nuke" as well, we all know Loki doesn't need to be a nuke, but he does need to come out of the stone age of ability design.

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Some basic buffs and fun improvements would be nice, the worst part about Loki is how boring he is, not how weak he is. 

Functional high mobility high duration invisibility is fine, they could make his invisibility recastable before it ends, they could change his decoy to scale defense directly with Lokis defense or power strength, they could make it so the decoy actually takes your secondary weapon and actually attacks with it. They could allow your decoy to be placed on walls and ceilings.

I like the idea with switch teleport hold to swap with decoy even if your not targeting it. 

I think the saddest thing is that he has a very potent wall hanging passive which synergizes with his radial disarm that hardly gets notice. I remade mine to utilize the wall hang mod set, and it's pretty amusing. But ultimately his kit is boring. Making his decoy and teleport more engaging needs to happen for enjoyment more than balance. If you had a bunch of disarmed foes crowding under a decoy stuck to the ceiling which was actually attacking with your sidearm, it would be hilarious and fun, even if it wasn't powerful, and that's what Loki should mean. 

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On 2020-10-18 at 10:27 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

I just want him to have renewed and completely different Utility abilities for current gameplay 

Abilities that still don't care about strength

What do you think?

i dont think anybody ever wanted to use loki for damage
he is a solid warframe  but his 1 and 3 are just severly outdated by the fact that lots of other abilities do what his abilities try to do better despite that not even being their original function

i feel like a good way to modernize him a bit more (imo) is:
-just make his passive have the ability to latch on to walls forever and have increased movement speed and attack speed when any form of invisibility is active
-give his decoy a second of invulnerability wherein it absorbs all incoming damage so it can multiply and use that as health so that it can now scale with higher level content better
-holding 1 should allow u to swap places with decoy without the need of his 3
-his 3 is one of the worst and most uselss forms of mobility in the game so just give him some sort of ability that helps him with his whole espionage role and lets him see enemies, cameras, mines, consoles etc... through walls

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The one thing he needs is his decoy be invulnerable with no helminth shenanigans.
 

19 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

Somebody hasn't played Nyx recently 😄

or ever, nyx is a top5 tier frame from a long long time 

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20 hours ago, Luciole77 said:

lol man....are you joking right? This warframe has two or more reworks and still uselles.

 

19 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah, Nyx is more of a D tier. Bordering on F.

Yup, as I thought. Haven't played Nyx lol.

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No.

He's not good enough to need a nerfwork, and not bad enough to need a buffwork.

Pay no attention to Loki. He is not important.

 

Seriously, just look elsewhere.

The Trickster God is sufficiently mediocre as to not need scrutiny, but not mediocre enough to need that other kind of scrutiny.

 

Hey, isn't that Trinity? She hasn't had a nerf in ages. Quick, go deal with that and forget that this thread even exists.

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Loki doesn't need a rework for the simple reason that even if his kit is old, all the parts still work.
He's not a walking tenno space magic nuke, he's not a wall of biosteel, what he is is one of the few frames that embraces actual stealth play. When that fails, when YOU fail, you have guns. If they know you're there, either you screwed up or it no longer matters if they see you because they are already in a trap and beyond hope.
Those saying 'the game has moved beyond stealth' who then proceed to point at damage frames that can also invis don't get the point of Loki and why he needs to keep the kit he has.
Your Data, Commander, or Captive may be gone, but it couldn't have been Loki.  He wasn't there ... or was he? 

He could use a tweak or two, but a rework is not required.
- Decoys if not augmented should be invulnerable.
- Decoys have an additional loot vacuum radius and collect for Loki.
- Decoy can be moved from spot to spot by aiming and holding the Decoy button. Decoy then moves as a warframe specter does to the aimpoint. Chase the hologram, little grineer! What fun! Aiming at an enemy directly and holding causes the Decoy to focus on it, making the Decoy that targets highest priority ( bosses exempt to exclusivity, of course ). Directly aiming at the Decoy and holding cancels the Decoy.

Invisibility is still good, disarming enemies is still good, decoy needs a touchup, switch teleport is the weakest of the bunch simply because it's not a viably spammable skill and is really annoying to other players, even though it's utility with decoy is an excellent designed purpose. Honestly, Switch teleport is the one ability I don't use much except with decoy. 

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