The Marking Mechanic: Implemented the right way

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Implemented right this mechanic can be very useful. In my opinion, the marking mechanic would work well it its tied to cc, healing, mobility, companions etc in very creative ways though I believe the one thing it should never be tied to is damage EVER.

However, the downside of this mechanic is that most of the time it won`t work well in a fast-past situation in a public team because by the time you have marked enemies other player would have killed them and you will loses your marked targets, that`s also one of the reason it should not be tied to damage.

As we know, the best way for it to be use is as a command like Venari and Wukong`s clone.

Here are two examples of current warframes that can benefit from using this mechanic;

 

Inaros` 4th ability

This could have three-stages to this ability, the first After you charge the ability you will activate mark mode where you mark enemies then you cast the ability making the scarab projectiles seek out marked targets. It would be able to affect more enemies, spread out cc and healing and can be used in creative ways.

 

Zephyr` s 4th ability

After casting tornados, holding the ability will give you the ability to mark, it will activate then you can mark enemies then activate it again to control the tornados to seek out the marked targets. This will make controlling the tornados better than aiming at enemies for It to move at a slow rate.

 

As we all know the bad example of this is Ash`s bladestorm coz its tied to damage. So, if DE decide to implement this mechanic onto warframes in the future they need to know… DON`T TIE IT TO DAMAGE.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

marking is never as good as auto seeking though. having those abilities you mentioned just track enemies is far more user-friendly and since they aren't tied to damage, it wouldn't be overpowered.

it's like with the Sepulcrum: great pistol, aside from having to manually tag targets, when there are pistols like Cyanex that will just seek targets for you. I'd rather the weapon do the work so I can focus on something else, like not taking damage from the enemy shooting at me.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

14 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

-snip-

And that's how I feel about Ash bs, it`s a waste of time marking when you can just target one enemy, activate the ability and the clones kill enemies within the radius of the enemy you targeted. The marking mechanic is one of the least used warframes bs is slow as it is, the last thing it needs is a slow activation speed.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Just a question;

If Saryn, Ember, Equinox, Banshee and Mesa`s 4th abilities had the marking mechanic that Ash has, would you still play them? would it make the abilities better?

[Monolake]

its only 'bad' relatively to the other abilities which are just carpet nukes that murder gameplay as well as they murder enemies without player skill of aiming or awareness

[killerJoke66]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Just a question;

If Saryn, Ember, Equinox, Banshee and Mesa`s 4th abilities had the marking mechanic that Ash has, would you still play them? would it make the abilities better?

personally i'd be okay if there would be compensation , and with making them not an auto nuke also makes is so that i dont go sleeping 40 minutes in  because of autopiloting .

Sure , one could say it would lower the dps but then again i would rather not fall asleep literally so :/  instead of killing 10 mobs per sec now you kill 8 mobs per sec ? not too big deal

[(PSN)Vexx757]

3 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

-snip-

Even through I feel like this is disingenuous (but I did ask so I can`t go off) If this was the case now you will get the prob of ppl taking you kills and they won`t be as efficient anymore. Because of this mechanic Ash has plummeted in popularity and ppl aren't using his anymore all because of one dreadful change and the same would be said for those frames mentioned so it would be a big deal.  

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

On 2020-10-19 at 5:30 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

marking is never as good as auto seeking though. having those abilities you mentioned just track enemies is far more user-friendly and since they aren't tied to damage, it wouldn't be overpowered.

it's like with the Sepulcrum: great pistol, aside from having to manually tag targets, when there are pistols like Cyanex that will just seek targets for you. I'd rather the weapon do the work so I can focus on something else, like not taking damage from the enemy shooting at me.

Sepulcrum’s damage is unfortunately low, and I really wish the alternate fire was just seeking missiles.

Makes very little sense that you have to tag the targets first.

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Even through I feel like this is disingenuous (but I did ask so I can`t go off) If this was the case now you will get the prob of ppl taking you kills and they won`t be as efficient anymore. Because of this mechanic Ash has plummeted in popularity and ppl aren't using his anymore all because of one dreadful change and the same would be said for those frames mentioned so it would be a big deal.  

'people taking your kills and they wont be as efficent anymore'  maybe ive indirectly said this before but i'll remark them again .

1- if anyone feels like they are been behind kill score in a public matchamking in warframe , first if you go public the unspoken priority is to finish the mission fast as possible since theyre relic openings most the time , second why should anyone care about kill counts in a pve game , they should simply learn to not care about that .
2- no i genuinely dont believe the kps doesnt get lowered much unless that person's hands are really slow , like i said thats just my point of view or taste that i would rather have them manually but more powerful than those aoe dps/nuke abilities being auto-aimed for me in long missions making me fall asleep . That is just my preference , i was just voicing my preference on that . 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, killerJoke66 said:

second why should anyone care about kill counts in a pve game , they should simply learn to not care about that .

There's a limit

"I'm mad because I didn't kill as many enemies as that other guy' is petty.

"I'm upset because I didn't get to play Warframe because somebody else killed literally every enemy on the map before anyone else had a chance to reach them"  is most certainly not petty. A players right to play their way extends as far as another players right to do the exact same thing. If a player has the ability to remove the ability to reasonably play from another person, that needs addressing. It's the same reason why Limbo's stasis freezing allied projectiles wasn't acceptable, and why his ability to stop players weapons from working without a reasonable ability to avoid it (both intentionally and uninentionally) is still unacceptable.

 

In regards to OP's point though, Ash having the Marking Mechanic rather than just auto-killing everything is only as much of a problem as all these other auto-mass-murder machines is. That level of consistent power is harmful for other reasons anyway, since a choice between a hundred different things with one very clearly best solution isn't a very meaningful decision. So, honestly, more frames should have limiting factor mechanics built in. Preferably a variety of limiting factors, since that creates more interesting choices in builds and team composition when looking at co-operative play.

[killerJoke66]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

There's a limit

"I'm mad because I didn't kill as many enemies as that other guy' is petty.

"I'm upset because I didn't get to play Warframe because somebody else killed literally every enemy on the map before anyone else had a chance to reach them"  is most certainly not petty. A players right to play their way extends as far as another players right to do the exact same thing. If a player has the ability to remove the ability to reasonably play from another person, that needs addressing. It's the same reason why Limbo's stasis freezing allied projectiles wasn't acceptable, and why his ability to stop players weapons from working without a reasonable ability to avoid it (both intentionally and uninentionally) is still unacceptable.

 

In regards to OP's point though, Ash having the Marking Mechanic rather than just auto-killing everything is only as much of a problem as all these other auto-mass-murder machines is. That level of consistent power is harmful for other reasons anyway, since a choice between a hundred different things with one very clearly best solution isn't a very meaningful decision. So, honestly, more frames should have limiting factor mechanics built in. Preferably a variety of limiting factors, since that creates more interesting choices in builds and team composition when looking at co-operative play.

Your points are well made in an argumentative sense but dude . . how do you balance a new player hoping in for a lith relic opening and that person being behind kills like , also some frames are just really better at speedrunning then others since we are talking about having fun in pubs . 
I understand your point of view , but realisticaly thats like a wishful thinking , theres just so many factors come into play on how a normal warframe player might feel like theyre not touching any enemy in pubs , sometimes its an aoe frame , sometimes its and aoe launcher , someytimes its melee , sometimes literally sentinels killing level 50 enemies because they can be modded that way , the list is just endless and we have to take away 95% of the game for that to not happen . Tonkor- fashion nerfs wont ever save that , its just a price we pay for the powers we have .

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

Your points are well made in an argumentative sense but dude . . how do you balance a new player hoping in for a lith relic opening and that person being behind kills like , also some frames are just really better at speedrunning then others since we are talking about having fun in pubs . 
I understand your point of view , but realisticaly thats like a wishful thinking , theres just so many factors come into play on how a normal warframe player might feel like theyre not touching any enemy in pubs , sometimes its an aoe frame , sometimes its and aoe launcher , someytimes its melee , sometimes literally sentinels killing level 50 enemies because they can be modded that way , the list is just endless and we have to take away 95% of the game for that to not happen . Tonkor- fashion nerfs wont ever save that , its just a price we pay for the powers we have .

I mean... Monster Hunter doesn't have an issue with players not getting to fight the monster if somebody else decided to pick the meta. Deep Rock doesn't either. I can't think of a lot of games that become fundamentally unplayable because one person in a group of four decided so. And that's probably not an accident either. And like I said, this isn't the only problem Warframe's current power creep creates. Tonkor-fashion nerfs won't change that, to be sure. Coptering-bullet jumping ones are what's neccessary.  And the fact I can make that comparison likewise proves that it's not out of the realm of possibility.

See, the issue isn't the power in and of itself. Plenty of games offer power similar to, or even greater than what Warframe can offer. DOOM Eternal's Crucible is just a better pre-nerf Covid Lethality for example. What matters isn't what players have access to, it's how they access it. Warframe offering god-like power is one thing, but unlike the majority of games I know if there's rarely if every any meaningful cost to using it. Even Dynasty Warriors operates on the logic of opportunity cost - that, sure, you're strong, but strength is needed across the whole battlefield, and you're limited to just one part of the stage at a time. Cost-benefit analysis, risk vs reward - these are the backbone behind the meaningful choices I mention. Warframe has elements of this, in theory. But it also has the choice of 'All the benefit, none of the cost'.

And sure, you can not take it. But it's still sitting there. And as long as it's still sitting there, somebody's gonna take it. And if they do you don't get to play. And DE knows that it's there too, and they know that people are going to bring their A-game to any kind of content they want to make that's 'challenging'. So they need to assume you're gonna take it. Games that don't present you with this situation haven't hit upon some galaxy-brained solution that enables a power fantasy experience despite this - they just don't offer that choice to begin with.

Would that require ripping out 95% of the game? No, although I'm sure that was hyperbole to begin with. But it would require ripping a very large, very old band-aid off.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-12-04 at 3:28 PM, killerJoke66 said:

-snip-

Just to prove that their is an issue with the marking mechanic being tied to damage, take Ash to a normal Earth defence mission with a team and use bladestorm, and you will see the issues as soon as you activate the ability.

[killerJoke66]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Just to prove that their is an issue with the marking mechanic being tied to damage, take Ash to a normal Earth defence mission with a team and use bladestorm, and you will see the issues as soon as you activate the ability.

again its pubs , i dont care , and you shouldnt too , its 50 level mission tops.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

18 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

again its pubs , i dont care , and you shouldnt too , its 50 level mission tops.

Weather you care or not, other ppl do, my post about Ash showing stats and ppl`s actions shows otherwise and it`s still problematic.

[Prexades]

Still complaining about Ash because you can't mod or play?

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Weather you care or not, other ppl do, my post about Ash showing stats and ppl`s actions shows otherwise and it`s still problematic.

tell me a reason why people should care about who kills faster in pubs , 10-20-30-50 level enemies ? like a legit reason , do you not get mission rewards or something ? i mean if someone goes out there way to bring a ranged focus aoe clear build on a frame in pubs , just let the guy have his time , its not happening all the time  ,in fact a rarely see someone do that unless its hydron or smtg and you want defense to go faster there anyways ...

[killerJoke66]

can we preach solo mode ? why are we trying to squish our search for fun in random public matches ? or if you are so concerned about it  ,gather your friends with no aoe frame or weapons if thats your cup of tea.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

can we preach solo mode ? why are we trying to squish our search for fun in random public matches ? or if you are so concerned about it  ,gather your friends with no aoe frame or weapons if thats your cup of tea.

I can load into a game of TF2 I'll be playing TF2.

I can load into Monster Hunter with randoms and be playing Monster Hunter.

I can load into Deep Rock Galactic, and be playing Deep Rock Galactic.

But if I load into Warframe, I've got a strong chance to be watching a let's play of Cookie Clicker.

[Aldain]

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I can load into a game of TF2 I'll be playing TF2.

I can load into Monster Hunter with randoms and be playing Monster Hunter.

I can load into Deep Rock Galactic, and be playing Deep Rock Galactic.

But if I load into Warframe, I've got a strong chance to be watching a let's play of Cookie Clicker.

Even worse, a let's play of late-game Cookie Clicker where you're just watching the screen in silence while the player is off taking a dump during the recording.

[Prexades]

To put it in a perspective. Nuke Warframes are extremely powerful, but rarely they instant nuke except in low levels.

For example Saryn is powerful because she has two abilities that can work as nukes, her Spores and Miasma. But to balance it, Spores need to be applied to a target and spread. It is potentially very powerful but only works if there are enough targets to spread around and close enough together.

Miasma is deadly even on Steel Path, but to have biggest impact the targets need to be affected by Spores, with all the issues of spread before. Otherwise it is mostly just a short CC and health debuff.

With the marking of targets Blade Storm can instant kill most enemies, that includes SP. But it requires some setup as first the target have to be marked and then the attacks have to be manually executed by using Blade Storm again. Effective but not instantly nuking. I think the OP suffers from an inability to adjust to Ashs gameplay which works fine. Ash is not a nuke WF and never will be, but that does not mean he is not effective in dealing damage.

[killerJoke66]

1 hour ago, Prexades said:

To put it in a perspective. Nuke Warframes are extremely powerful, but rarely they instant nuke except in low levels.

For example Saryn is powerful because she has two abilities that can work as nukes, her Spores and Miasma. But to balance it, Spores need to be applied to a target and spread. It is potentially very powerful but only works if there are enough targets to spread around and close enough together.

Miasma is deadly even on Steel Path, but to have biggest impact the targets need to be affected by Spores, with all the issues of spread before. Otherwise it is mostly just a short CC and health debuff.

With the marking of targets Blade Storm can instant kill most enemies, that includes SP. But it requires some setup as first the target have to be marked and then the attacks have to be manually executed by using Blade Storm again. Effective but not instantly nuking. I think the OP suffers from an inability to adjust to Ashs gameplay which works fine. Ash is not a nuke WF and never will be, but that does not mean he is not effective in dealing damage.

i want to add that also defining having fun in pubs as picking up a totally no damage ability frame like inaros and then picking up no aoe weapon and then complaining about not having fun in pubs strike me as hypocritical to me . 

Not only they expect others to limit their loadouts but also they unintentionally critize others on how the game should be played . their statement can go both ways but that crowd dont choose to see the part where it affects others that generally like to use aoe .

[(PSN)Vexx757]

22 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

-snip-

I`m not saying ppl should care, all I'm saying is that marking mechanic doesn`t function in pub missions so it should not be tied to damage and that no future frames should have this mechanic if it`s tied to damage and DE should care since they are pushing ppl to play as a team (even through we don`t care) and the marking mechanic tied to damage is counter-productive. Look at Revenant, even through I know it`s not tied to damage but his 1st ability with the augment is not good in pub missions coz other ppl will kill them off, it`s a buff for Rev but it won`t last long but in solo it`s fine. DE really need to thing about adding the mechanic in the future.

 

22 hours ago, Prexades said:

-snip-

No. and how would you know? weather I donor not is not the point, read the damn post ignorant plank.

[killerJoke66]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

I`m not saying ppl should care, all I'm saying is that marking mechanic doesn`t function in pub missions so it should not be tied to damage and that no future frames should have this mechanic if it`s tied to damage and DE should care since they are pushing ppl to play as a team (even through we don`t care) and the marking mechanic tied to damage is counter-productive. Look at Revenant, even through I know it`s not tied to damage but his 1st ability with the augment is not good in pub missions coz other ppl will kill them off, it`s a buff for Rev but it won`t last long but in solo it`s fine. DE really need to thing about adding the mechanic in the future.

 

No. and how would you know? weather I donor not is not the point, read the damn post ignorant plank.

In your post you mentioned wukongs' clone marking system is good even though its identical click to mark as ash and then you go on about how ash's marking is bad  , i dont get the meat of this issue youre referring to .

Its either aimbot nuke or manual when it comes to aoe , and how De can handle manual is a bit narrow if you ask me , sure they can think hard on how to come up with  a creative way to implement a less clunky version of marking but... its 'marking ' at the end of the day , its destined to be clunky compared to auto .

[(PSN)Vexx757]

20 hours ago, killerJoke66 said:

-snip-

 

On 2020-10-18 at 1:54 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

As we know, the best way for it to be use is as a command like Venari and Wukong`s clone.

That`s what I said about wukong`s clone.

As for Ash this post goes into detail on his bs issues. just go down to bs if that`s all you want to read but i`d appreciate if you read it all and give me your opinion about the post.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1233844-dear-de-why-ash-needs-a-revisit/

 

And I agree the marking mechanic will always have the issues of it being clunky and it not being that useful in a team that`s why I said...

On 2020-10-18 at 1:54 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

the marking mechanic would work well if it`s tied to cc, healing, mobility, companions etc

and 

On 2020-10-18 at 1:54 PM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

it should not be tied to damage.