With Nezha Prime release, delete Safeguard augment

[MPonder]

Make it standard without the augment, simple as that.

[Lazarow]

Yes I have to agree with this, he should get something else for it, while I dont know 100% sure what yet it is pointless for this augment to take space for an augment so specific, first of all you have to aim at the ally to have an effect and the chances of that happening when space ninjas are all about bulletjumping everywhere is very low

[JaycemeSwain]

I mean there are tons of augments that should just be a standard part of it. I'm more like lets get more augments for specific abilities

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

Would be neat if the prime versions of every Warframe had their augments already built into the ability without the need for the mod. Maybe also having the ability to toggle them on or off perhaps for those who don't want the use of them through the ability.  

[Fratellino_Palevino]

il y a 8 minutes, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK a dit :

Would be neat if the prime versions of every Warframe had their augments already built into the ability without the need for the mod. Maybe also having the ability to toggle them on or off perhaps for those who don't want the use of them through the ability.  

Also make all primed mods innate on prime frames, and give them +0.1% damage reduction per hour played, so you have incentives to use them.
Also give the same treatment to prime weapons with damage for the same reason.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Seeing multiple threads asking for similar things recently, i'm honestly starting to question if people know what the word "augment" means.

The power doesnt need a change and the mod doesnt need to be integrated. Its doing exactly what its supposed to, augmenting an already useful power.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Seeing multiple threads asking for similar things recently, i'm honestly starting to question if people know what the word "augment" means.

The power doesnt need a change and the mod doesnt need to be integrated. Its doing exactly what its supposed to, augmenting an already useful power.

The problem they have is when the power is useless without the augment

[MPonder]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Seeing multiple threads asking for similar things recently, i'm honestly starting to question if people know what the word "augment" means.

The power doesnt need a change and the mod doesnt need to be integrated. Its doing exactly what its supposed to, augmenting an already useful power.

He seems to be a support character, but can't properly without the augment.

Meanwhile, Trinity no aim required, 50m range, full heal/shields + damage reduction.

Seems fair to me.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

19 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The problem they have is when the power is useless without the augment

Yeah but thats the issue, the power IS useful without it being augmented.

Just because (X) doesn't react the way that you, I, or someone else wants it to, doesn't automatically make it useless. It means our expectations of (X) were incorrect, and thats on us.

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Yeah but thats the issue, the power IS useful without it being augmented.

Just because (X) doesn't react the way that you, I, or someone else wants it to, doesn't automatically make it useless. It means our expectations of (X) were incorrect, and thats on us.

Oh I definitely agree that of all the powers to level that complaint against, Warding Halo is a stupid one. It's a good power even when restricted to the caster. But just off the top of my head, Molt and Desecrate and Sandstorm basically do not exist without their augments, and Slash Dash is dangerously close to that list too

[(PSN)MYKK678]

19 hours ago, MPonder said:

He seems to be a support character, but can't properly without the augment.

Meanwhile, Trinity no aim required, 50m range, full heal/shields + damage reduction.

Seems fair to me.

Nezha only really becomes a support character through Augments. So hes actually Augmented into Support, not naturally. Without Augments, 1 power Cleanses allies and the other 3 are specifically for Nezha entirely. Even Nezha's passive benefits nobody except Nezha.

Trinity would be the complete polar opposite of Nezha. 3 powers focused on Trinity  + allies, and just 1 for Trinity alone. Trinity's passive is directly involved in the revival speed of allies too.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh I definitely agree that of all the powers to level that complaint against, Warding Halo is a stupid one. It's a good power even when restricted to the caster. But just off the top of my head, Molt and Desecrate and Sandstorm basically do not exist without their augments, and Slash Dash is dangerously close to that list too

Thats why i'm patiently waiting for WF Revisited 4.0 that was announced on a recent devstream. They already have a list of underused/underperforming powers. Buffs are coming, the only worrying thing is when threads show up about powers like this. It shifts focus away as DE said they're still monitoring feedback.

[MPonder]

5 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Nezha only really becomes a support character through Augments. So hes actually Augmented into Support, not naturally. Without Augments, 1 power Cleanses allies and the other 3 are specifically for Nezha entirely. Even Nezha's passive benefits nobody except Nezha.

Trinity would be the complete polar opposite of Nezha. 3 powers focused on Trinity  + allies, and just 1 for Trinity alone. Trinity's passive is directly involved in the revival speed of allies too.

1 cleanse status from allies

2 Debuff the enemies (good for everybody in the group), too bad all the game modes are just about killing hordes of enemies. Drop Energy and  health orb, good for everybody in the group too (unless it is just for Nezha the drop, which I can't confirm).

3 Good for Allies (with augment, which is a shame and not necessary)

 

Just because there is no "ally/allies" in the ability description, doesn't mean they don't affect them at all. That's easily a support kit there, if you know, understand the abilities instead of Ctrl+F for "Allies OR Ally" on their description.

 

----

 

Trinity can heal, so he can, Trinity can give energy, so does he. Trinity gives dmg reduction, and Nezha Too. But Nezha need more work and yet, need also a augment.

[TehGrief]

I fully support this. 

There are several other augments that should also be considered for the transition into the innate ability.  

[Electropuncher]

Nezha main here.

In response to your thesis: No. Warding Halo, without its augment, is already a really potent ability, offering nearly infinite scaling damage reduction, status immunity, AND a defensive radius. The augment, in and of itself, is already literally doubling its effectiveness, and Nezha is one of the most useful frames in the game. Firewalker also cleanses statuses (you never notice it when you have Halo up, but yeah, it does), Blazing Chakram halves enemy defenses and has a decent chance to spawn health orbs, Reaping Chakram cranks that up to eleven, and Divine Spears stop enemies in their tracks and spawn a chakram when hit with one. If any augment needs to be deleted, it's Controlled Slide, because it's outright bad.

There's this pervasive mentality in the forums lately where it seems everyone just wants to throw game balance to the wind and ramp everything up to 11. If you do that, the game will become stale in a hurry. Some limits will do you good. However, I will agree that some augments are just things that should be in the base ability, like Banshee's Resonant Quake or Rhino's Iron Skin mod. I hope with the new balance pass we're theoretically getting by year's end, we'll see so abilities actually get some tweaks.

[Andele3025]

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh I definitely agree that of all the powers to level that complaint against, Warding Halo is a stupid one. It's a good power even when restricted to the caster. But just off the top of my head, Molt and Desecrate and Sandstorm basically do not exist without their augments, and Slash Dash is dangerously close to that list too

Hard disagree on that one. Certainly for Creeping Terrify and likely for Shield of Shadows with how recent enemy design is going on ignoring game rules, but what Despoil does is unlock build options more so than make the ability work. With Synth sets letting one pick up hp orbs at cap there is arguably little point to the augment as both the efficiency route and equilibrium work the same with or without it (tho negative efficiency nekros does really like the shift to hp cost).

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

If any augment needs to be deleted, it's Controlled Slide, because it's outright bad.

It's just there to address the complaints of people who like everything about Nezha except his passive.   So, in a way, it's a perfect augment.  It has a niche, it changes the way a frame plays, and it isn't simply a power multiplier. 

I'll never use the silly thing--because Nezha has the best passive in the game AFAIC--but I can appreciate that it exists.

As far as baking Safeguard into the base ability goes...

[MPonder]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Nezha main here.

In response to your thesis: No. Warding Halo, without its augment, is already a really potent ability, offering nearly infinite scaling damage reduction, status immunity, AND a defensive radius. The augment, in and of itself, is already literally doubling its effectiveness, and Nezha is one of the most useful frames in the game. Firewalker also cleanses statuses (you never notice it when you have Halo up, but yeah, it does), Blazing Chakram halves enemy defenses and has a decent chance to spawn health orbs, Reaping Chakram cranks that up to eleven, and Divine Spears stop enemies in their tracks and spawn a chakram when hit with one. If any augment needs to be deleted, it's Controlled Slide, because it's outright bad.

There's this pervasive mentality in the forums lately where it seems everyone just wants to throw game balance to the wind and ramp everything up to 11. If you do that, the game will become stale in a hurry. Some limits will do you good. However, I will agree that some augments are just things that should be in the base ability, like Banshee's Resonant Quake or Rhino's Iron Skin mod. I hope with the new balance pass we're theoretically getting by year's end, we'll see so abilities actually get some tweaks.

For a Nezha "main", you talk so many no sense about what his abilities do, rofl.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Hard disagree on that one. Certainly for Creeping Terrify and likely for Shield of Shadows with how recent enemy design is going on ignoring game rules, but what Despoil does is unlock build options more so than make the ability work. With Synth sets letting one pick up hp orbs at cap there is arguably little point to the augment as both the efficiency route and equilibrium work the same with or without it (tho negative efficiency nekros does really like the shift to hp cost).

With Despoil: Desecrate actually functions, and Nekros can use his energy for other things

Without Despoil: Desecrate drains all of Nekros's energy in the blink of an eye, even at max efficiency. Nekros then runs around picking up all the orbs, praying to God almighty that enough orbs actually dropped (since it's less than 50% chance that enemies drop any orbs at all, much less both orbs, so even with Equilibrium he's not guaranteed to get his energy back). Oh, and running out of energy causes Desecrate to immediately shut off, which wouldn't be a big problem if it wasn't for the fact turning Desecrate on without Despoil has an energy tax.

Yeah did you know that? Turning Desecrate on without Despoil costs energy, even though turning Desecrate on WITH Despoil does NOT cost health. I'd immediately admit defeat in this Nekros debate just to get that stupid energy tax removed

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

With Despoil: Desecrate actually functions, and Nekros can use his energy for other things

Without Despoil: Desecrate drains all of Nekros's energy in the blink of an eye, even at max efficiency. Nekros then runs around picking up all the orbs, praying to God almighty that enough orbs actually dropped (since it's less than 50% chance that enemies drop any orbs at all, much less both orbs, so even with Equilibrium he's not guaranteed to get his energy back).

Except this whole thing isnt true because by raw values nekros would hit sub 10 hp not get desecrates with despoil because 74 is less than 106 ones he can do with budget energy version (at same mod slot cost). And no, its 54% (with non farm mode nekros getting 1.4~ corpses per enemy/1 extra corpse per 3 enemies with a ok slash weapon) to get 25 hp and 27 energy. There is a reason why pre helminth farm nekros was the energy variant instead of the hp one (well more because people were too lazy to bother with repair and why would you equip it when you save both a mod slot and people already using zenurik+pads, but thats beside the point), tho now either case really dont care with dispenser being a thing and AI behaving derpy when doing room/spawn control survival farms.

4 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah did you know that? Turning Desecrate on without Despoil costs energy

Yes, i know and i agree its dumb (same for equinox P&P). And that getting hit by some energy drains, ones that doesnt nully skills like doors and sometimes disruptors, (despite having Despoil) also turns off Desecrate is also annoying. Same for recasting shadows when all 7 are up having the heal happen at the end of the animation, but not checking if any shadows died in the time between start and end of the animation either due to decay or due to you taking a hit to the face with SoS yet casting shadows with 1+ missing heals right at the start...

All things id love fixed, just point was Crippling Terrify and maybe SoS are the actual bandaid cases, not Despoil which is more of a "build variety"/low on power high on potential fun increase augment.

[selig_fay]

I don't think this augment should be a standard function. Halo is a tank ability and is good in itself. Augment adds support potential and changes the way you play. This is what augment is supposed to do.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

22 hours ago, MPonder said:

1 cleanse status from allies

2 Debuff the enemies (good for everybody in the group), too bad all the game modes are just about killing hordes of enemies. Drop Energy and  health orb, good for everybody in the group too (unless it is just for Nezha the drop, which I can't confirm).

3 Good for Allies (with augment, which is a shame and not necessary)

 

Just because there is no "ally/allies" in the ability description, doesn't mean they don't affect them at all. That's easily a support kit there, if you know, understand the abilities instead of Ctrl+F for "Allies OR Ally" on their description.

 

----

 

Trinity can heal, so he can, Trinity can give energy, so does he. Trinity gives dmg reduction, and Nezha Too. But Nezha need more work and yet, need also a augment.

Right. A lot of this needs clarification tbh because i'd almost say we're talking about 2 different things here.

Just to recap:  My point is that Nezha, without Augments, couldn't be put in the same "Support Frame" pool that Trinity is in, like you tried to with your post. I then proceeded to point out that really only 1 of Nezhas powers, without Augments, is geared towards Supporting allies, and compared that to Trinity's 3 powers + passive, further cementing the wide gap between the 2. Nezha is Augmented into Support, not built as a Support.

 

Now onto what needs clarification from yourself:

1- Why are you listing his 3 (Halo)  as "good for allies with Augment" when we're talking about him without Augments?

2- Why would you make the mistake in assuming i'm "CTRL+F"ing anything when it clearly shows i play on PS4 right below my Forum Name there?

3- On the same subject, why would we now believe you understand Nezhas powers more than someone else, like you're trying to convey, after the above mistake?

4- Finally, being able to force an enemy to drop Orbs is not Healing anyone nor giving energy like your last point is trying to make it sound. So why would you even try to compare Nezha to Trinity like that?

 

Tbh if we were to go by your definition of "Support" then every Frame is a "Support Frame". If a Frame has a power that juggles or knocks enemies down, thats now Support. Benefits allies for a few seconds while they get back up. Still wont put most of them anywhere near Trinity though. So we'll need to call Frames like Trinity "Super Support". Until someone tries to compare a normal Support Frame to a Super Support Frame. And round and round and round it goes.

[MPonder]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Right. A lot of this needs clarification tbh because i'd almost say we're talking about 2 different things here.

Just to recap:  My point is that Nezha, without Augments, couldn't be put in the same "Support Frame" pool that Trinity is in, like you tried to with your post. I then proceeded to point out that really only 1 of Nezhas powers, without Augments, is geared towards Supporting allies, and compared that to Trinity's 3 powers + passive, further cementing the wide gap between the 2. Nezha is Augmented into Support, not built as a Support.

 

Now onto what needs clarification from yourself:

1- Why are you listing his 3 (Halo)  as "good for allies with Augment" when we're talking about him without Augments?

2- Why would you make the mistake in assuming i'm "CTRL+F"ing anything when it clearly shows i play on PS4 right below my Forum Name there?

3- On the same subject, why would we now believe you understand Nezhas powers more than someone else, like you're trying to convey, after the above mistake?

4- Finally, being able to force an enemy to drop Orbs is not Healing anyone nor giving energy like your last point is trying to make it sound. So why would you even try to compare Nezha to Trinity like that?

 

Tbh if we were to go by your definition of "Support" then every Frame is a "Support Frame". If a Frame has a power that juggles or knocks enemies down, thats now Support. Benefits allies for a few seconds while they get back up. Still wont put most of them anywhere near Trinity though. So we'll need to call Frames like Trinity "Super Support". Until someone tries to compare a normal Support Frame to a Super Support Frame. And round and round and round it goes.

Pointless to clarify anything for someone that can't even understand abilities' description.

"Above mistake", LOL.

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Tbh if we were to go by your definition of "Support" then every Frame is a "Support Frame". If a Frame has a power that juggles or knocks enemies down, thats now Support. Benefits allies for a few seconds while they get back up. Still wont put most of them anywhere near Trinity though. So we'll need to call Frames like Trinity "Super Support". Until someone tries to compare a normal Support Frame to a Super Support Frame. And round and round and round it goes.

Let's call Trinity a junk energy generator and cite Wisp or Harrow as an example of good support frames.

[Electropuncher]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Tbh if we were to go by your definition of "Support" then every Frame is a "Support Frame". If a Frame has a power that juggles or knocks enemies down, thats now Support. Benefits allies for a few seconds while they get back up. Still wont put most of them anywhere near Trinity though. So we'll need to call Frames like Trinity "Super Support". Until someone tries to compare a normal Support Frame to a Super Support Frame. And round and round and round it goes.

To piggyback off this, let's talk about group composition in Warframe. Or rather, how group comp is almost entirely meaningless outside of a few specific fights in the game, namely Eidolons (and even that's arguably less important now) and Orbs (which are really more marred by technical limitations). The entirety of WF is soloable, mainly due to the extreme modularity of each frame and weapon. As long as you've got the right tool for the job, you can take on anything. Adding party members basically just gives you more tools.

Calling Nezha a support frame is a bit of a non-descriptor, because each frame, even selfish frames like Xaku, support their team by simply being there. Yes, Trinity is geared entirely around healing, energy restoration, and defense. You can also use those powers to keep yourself alive, and if you're crafty with your mods, deal insane single target damage while refunding you for energy repeatedly. Is Rhino a support frame? Yeah, Stomp is great CC, Roar is unequivocally the best damage buff in the game, and even Charge can knock a target away from an ally. Xaku, a frame whose best teammate is another Xaku, can disarm enemies while turning those weapons against their owners (and the disarm range is pretty great), can create a mini Chaos, can (poorly) create defense stripping zones, can lift targets and keep them out of the fight, and create a MASSIVE slow zone and break boxes open for easy looting. Yes, Nezha has access to a status scrubber, a damage buff that also deals tons of damage and creates health/energy orbs, a stopping effect that multiplies the previous one, and a shield that also allows status immunity. However, Nezha also uses those abilities to back his own relentless offense. Being status immune also makes you knockback immune, so one of the easiest ways to play Nezha is to Halo up, put on your speedy shoes, and spamming a Kuva Ogris throughout the mission.

Yes, you'll still see people insisting on doing Eidolons with a Volt, a Trinity, an Oberon, and a Chroma. You'll also see someone like MCGamerCZ basically bum rush it with a Redeemer Prime or Paracesis and take it down in less than a minute. Hell, the GDQ run by KrusKader was a showcase in how inconsequential group comp is when you can basically brute force any encounter with the right mods. Steel Path is intended to be hard mode, but pretty much every major YouTuber was able to conquer it with minimal struggle. Warframes are one-person armies, quite literally if you stay in endless missions long enough, which some argue is the problem with the game. It's the problem with Superman: who cares if there are no obstacles you can't overcome? 

Warframe when it launched in 2012 in closed beta and Warframe today are two very different games. The initial roster was Ash, Ember, Excalibur, Loki, Mag, Rhino, Trinity, and Volt. Except for Loki, all seven of those frames have had significant retooling to make them stay relevant over the seven+ years the game has been out. As an aside, you can argue that Loki really needs a rework and has since 2017. Of those frames, at the time, Trinity was the only one who had any real method to heal her team. We've gone from seven frames to 44 in the past eight years. We started with a tech tree for each item, and now we have between eight and twelve mod slots per item (despite Necramechs being the only things with 12 and not really having a need for all of them, yet). We have gear that can turn the tide of battle on its own, making basically any "role" obsolete. Yeah, it's like saying warriors in WoW can be healers because bandages exist, but WF operates on a much speedier play style, so it's easy to say "drop a pizza in a corner."