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Combos should not move players forward unless a movement key is being pressed


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Wasn't that a major point of melee 3.0? From the patch notes:

Quote

If you are not inputting a movement key while meleeing, it’s usually a sign you want to finish off your target. We wanted the new Combos to reflect that that existing movement, and so the new inputs reflect that situational awareness.

This straight up is not how it works in practice and it is a major detriment to melee gameplay. Some stances, e.g. Stinging Thorn for daggers, have constant forward movement even when no key other than melee is being pressed. It means I'm often sliding past targets, whiffing hits because I'm moving around when I don't want to. It makes a lot of weapons incredibly frustrating to use, especially at high attack speeds, so I end up just not using them at all despite the other melee improvements

As great as melee 3.0 is, this aspect of the overhaul has fallen flat. If I'm not inputting movement, I should not be moving, period.

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The opposite can be said for Decisive Judgement stance on nikanas.

Forward Melee combo has almost little to no forward movement at all while the standing combo has more consistent movement...

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sorry, your complaint is too reasonable and logical, game couldn't hear you over all the glue it was sniffing. what do you mean if you aren't moving forwards you don't want to move forwards, and if you are moving forwards you want to move forwards?
that's crazy talk.

 

 

also there's any Stances that actually do it right? i don't use every Melee Weapon but like, any i have used, neutral moves forwards, and forwards doesn't move.

Edited by taiiat
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55 minutes ago, taiiat said:

also there's any Stances that actually do it right? i don't use every Melee Weapon but like, any i have used, neutral moves forwards, and forwards doesn't move.

Blind Justice (Nikanas) is very close to being perfect.

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Meanwhile, Gunblades go literally anywhere else while you're trying to aim a shot. Come on, game, if you're going to fling me around at some skewed angle then the least you could do is turn me so my crosshair isn't thrown off to one side too.

Or just don't dance around like a lunatic. That works too.

Bullet Dance block-combos are SO BAD. There's a reason I just used the quick-melee shots while we had them. I could stand steady and aim at my enemies.

Bonus mention goes to the fact it's basically impossible to hit things if you slip into close range, they just take 0.01% damage and ragdoll instead, making it even more trouble to hit them with follow-up shots. Very useful /s

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Also, all forward combos should have free movement (aka no lower body animation locks) and dashes should have their sprint distance modifier and keyboard steer restored (aka move further if sprinting, can move it left right without turning camera like with slide attacks, both just as you could do before).

Oh and undo the animation changes to Tempo Royale and modifier nerfs to heavy blades as a whole.

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

also there's any Stances that actually do it right?

Shimmering Blight does it right. Probably also why its one of the most popular stances.

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5 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This straight up is not how it works in practice and it is a major detriment to melee gameplay.

 Its totally fine.  Combos would look incredibly lame without it.  Imagine a forward lunge animation when you move backwards or sideways. That would be S#&$.

In all games that can be described as "stylish combo slasher" all combos have slight frontal movement due to animations.  Stuff like Ninja gaiden, Bayonetta, DMC, MGR: Revengeance, Dragon's dogma, Dark souls.  Even Skyrim uses that for "strong attacks", because melee actually needs proper footwork. That's the whole point.

 

 Its possible to tone it down a bit though.  You just gotta report animations with excessive movement. Preferably with gifs.

Butchering whole system because some Stance has too much movement is kinda eh...    I like what we have.

 

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1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Even Skyrim uses that for "strong attacks"

No it doesn't. Doing a strong attack whilst standing still causes you to... you know... stand still. The power attack is noticeably faster as well, due to the lack of run up beforehand.

Poor choice of example.

Edited by DeMonkey
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3 hours ago, Kainosh said:

 Its totally fine.  Combos would look incredibly lame without it.  Imagine a forward lunge animation when you move backwards or sideways. [...] Butchering whole system because some Stance has too much movement

Before stances were reworked, Vulpine Mask (the only rapier stance) had 100% unimpeded free movement on it's best combo. While the full combo was somewhat long, you could execute it with ~3 button presses because holding the button would be valid input for several steps of the combo. A real boon with high attack speed. It also opened enemies to finishers (or enabled stealth damage bonus).

Vulpine Mask was butchered. Nothing that made it great remains. It's a damn shame, really.

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4 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

No it doesn't. Doing a strong attack whilst standing still causes you to... you know... stand still. The power attack is noticeably faster as well, due to the lack of run up beforehand.

Poor choice of example.

No its proper, as you cannot MOVE during strong attack.   Its animation locked.  

As far as I understand, people here want to be able to freely move in any direction during ALL attacks.  And I oppose this as its utter garbage.

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1 minute ago, Kainosh said:

As far as I understand, people here want to be able to freely move in any direction during ALL attacks.  And I oppose this as its utter garbage

 

13 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

If I'm not inputting movement, I should not be moving, period.

Which bit are you confused about?

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1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

 

Which bit are you confused about?

That part when dude says  " I want to be rooted in place for entire EEE combo animation ".   Not all weapons will be good with that. Some need that slight forward motion, some don't.   Im not confused.  OP just never told us what weapons and what combos he struggles with. 

Also, this is the real issue, not the combo movement:

13 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I'm often sliding past targets, whiffing hits because I'm moving around when I don't want to

And it can be fixed by "target lock".... Actually, it would be great if we could manually lock onto something with melee.

Coz going into menu every time to enable or disable autotargeting when you change loadouts is not really great..... 

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8 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

That part when dude says  " I want to be rooted in place for entire EEE combo animation

I see. And from that confusion you came to the conclusion that they want to move in whatever direction they want regardless of the combo.

From a sentence about not wanting to move?

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2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I see. And from that confusion you came to the conclusion that they want to move in whatever direction they want regardless of the combo.

From a sentence about not wanting to move?

I guess I went a bit too fast with my thoughts... There is a freaking misunderstanding going on again.

For me "not moving" = feet are glued to the ground. Not even a slight movement. Only upper torso moves in attacks.

Is that it?

Or are we talking about "much shorter movement" on SOME of combos?  With current animations and all that?

Which one is it?

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21 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Which one is it?

Does it matter? I'm trying to nail down how you read a sentence requesting less forward movement on standard EEE combos (with a provided example), and managed to extrapolate it to the OP requesting free movement during any combo.

Don't overthink the thread, don't guess at ulterior motives. Consider only what has been typed and the example that has been presented and discuss that if you're feeling confused.

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

Does it matter? I'm trying to nail down how you read a sentence requesting less forward movement on standard EEE combos (with a provided example), and managed to extrapolate it to the OP requesting free movement during any combo.

Don't overthink the thread, don't guess at ulterior motives. Consider only what has been typed and the example that has been presented and discuss that if you're feeling confused.

Ah. That "free movement during combos" thing came from Andele…..   I usually read it all, so it got mixed in somehow after you bothered me with a reply....  I was not very focused, my bad.

But read my first reply. It doesn't mention any free movement.  I even wrote that im not against any distance reduction....but making it completely still is not a good idea.

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13 hours ago, Kainosh said:

 Its totally fine.  Combos would look incredibly lame without it.  Imagine a forward lunge animation when you move backwards or sideways. That would be S#&$.

In all games that can be described as "stylish combo slasher" all combos have slight frontal movement due to animations.  Stuff like Ninja gaiden, Bayonetta, DMC, MGR: Revengeance, Dragon's dogma, Dark souls.  Even Skyrim uses that for "strong attacks", because melee actually needs proper footwork. That's the whole point.

 

Except thats not just not true, but also a comparison of console first lockon design vs free attack. Hell even then 5/7 cases do have movement control during recovery frames instead of full animation locks (and in case of DMC and bayo, requires directional input for attacks that actually move you any amount higher than the stagger of the attacks). MGRR and DS being the biggest outliers even on being completely untrue that any actual movement happens as your base attacks (for DS1 on most weapons at least) resets your footing after recovery/you dont change place in memory unless playing Sam or using a weapon with a actual dash/jump (e.g. Arty gs which from usually static attack instead has a leap).

And thats all ignoring the fact that free move was a staple of a lot of once good stances like tempo royale which LOOKED BETTER as far as animation footwork when it had it because it werent animations that got cut apart and glued together with animation locks that twitch your frame like its experiencing earthquakes or seizures. If de wants a mega styling move, thats what the block combos are for.

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11 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Or are we talking about "much shorter movement" on SOME of combos?  With current animations and all that?

Which one is it?

We are talking about "overshooting" the enemy right in front of you if all you do is press the attack button, and conversely being locked in place, feet glued to the ground, when you press forward+attack (which in most cases translates to initiating the attack while running forwards).

It's just dumb. And the worst part is, it wasn't always like that. Ever heard of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? Because chances are, you are going to break it. And then, when it's actually broken, you suddenly cannot be arsed to even look at it again.

They broke so many things with the stance rework. Thanks to uniform complaints, a small number of dumb decisions were reverted. Like Bullet Dance (the shooty gunblade stance), suddenly having a melee attack first place in the combo. It's just dumb.

It's just dumb.

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On 2020-10-20 at 8:43 AM, Aadi880 said:

Forward Melee combo has almost little to no forward movement at all while the standing combo has more consistent movement...

That's what I have seen in gunblades. I made a suggestion of swapping Forward combos with Normal combos (just pressing E). Someone mentioned that's not only problem with gunblades but other weapons as well.

On 2020-10-20 at 10:55 AM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Meanwhile, Gunblades go literally anywhere else while you're trying to aim a shot. Come on, game, if you're going to fling me around at some skewed angle then the least you could do is turn me so my crosshair isn't thrown off to one side too.

Or just don't dance around like a lunatic. That works too.

Bullet Dance block-combos are SO BAD. There's a reason I just used the quick-melee shots while we had them. I could stand steady and aim at my enemies.

Bonus mention goes to the fact it's basically impossible to hit things if you slip into close range, they just take 0.01% damage and ragdoll instead, making it even more trouble to hit them with follow-up shots. Very useful /s

Block combo might not be the best but it's helpful in some case. And it's one of combos that's different, not only in looks but in "how it works" as well.
Block + forward combos are fine... except the last one. Stupid slash.

21 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Imagine a forward lunge animation when you move backwards or sideways. That would be S#&$.

Forward lunge was nice with some whips. It moves you forward... but in smaller amount.

21 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Butchering whole system because some Stance has too much movement is kinda eh...    I like what we have.

I heard that lot of weapons have reversed normal & forward combos. Normal combos should limit your movement (forward/backward) and forward/backward should move you forward/backward. Not vice versa.

I remember how you could move forward & backward using redeemer using W & S keys. That was nice

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2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

It's just dumb.

+100 bullet dance should have shoots at the beginning of the combos, and melee strikes at the end. One melee strike at the end would be fine.

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

I remember how you could move forward & backward using redeemer using W & S keys. That was nice

Indeed. You could walk in any direction and hold the attack button to combo a regular shot and a heavy attack, while still walking. Now you can only walk forwards, and only with a regular shot (heavy attack stops you).

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6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

We are talking about "overshooting" the enemy right in front of you if all you do is press the attack button, and conversely being locked in place, feet glued to the ground, when you press forward+attack (which in most cases translates to initiating the attack while running forwards).

Yes, I understand....but how exactly should that be done?    I mean....Do you want all EEE+ W combos to move you forward at constant speed (Hover. Same for all weapons) or animation driven (steps...your character moves forward only when taking actual steps).

 

Try Cyclone Kraken (machete).  See if it does it for you.  Its one of those properly done stances imo.  At least I never overshoot or miss targets with it.  Its not entirely stationary during EEE...but movement is minimal.  Will that do? Or is it still bad? If yes then why?

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On 2020-10-20 at 12:25 PM, Aadi880 said:

Shimmering Blight does it right. Probably also why its one of the most popular stances.

Pretty good. What makes it work is that normal combo doesn't move you too much AND normal & forward key combinations shares the same combo. It's similar to the Bleeding willow. You can move  forward & backward. Forward motion is... I think it's ok, could be farther.
However it has 1 less combo.

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