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Warframe Mobility Critique.


Loza03

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10 hours ago, PhiThagRaid said:

In that case, I will be unable to convince you of anything regarding this topic. 

Keep in mind that my ideological disagreement is with the VIDEO, not necessarily with you, the OP or even most of the proposed mobility changes. You're unlikely to convince me to change my ideological stance, true, but that doesn't cover everything in this thread. Mostly, my ideological bone of contention is with the belief that the objective of game design should be to push players to improve and take on increasingly harder challenges, presumably until they're able to beat the hardest challenges the game has to offer. This is a long-standing criticism I've levied against many video games, because I've seen first-hand the damage that it can do to the player experience.

Payday 2 had this precise issue, with the community zeitgeist holding that you have to play Deathwish. All the other difficulties exist as stepping stones to teach you how to play Deathwish, to transition you to the most difficult setting at the time. If you're routinely playing anything lower and you've played for a while, then clearly there's something wrong with you, you suck, and you have no right to hold opinions on the game. ONLY Deathwish matters, nothing else matters. This became even worse with the addition of the One Down / Death Sentence difficulty, because that difficulty genuinely sucked ass and was deliberately not properly balanced. Kind of like Steel Path.

The problem with ideologies like these is that they're reductive. They take a small part of the game and declare it "the goal," with the entire rest of the game seen as merely a means to that goal, a stepping stone that the player need not and should not participate in once they're capable of "more." And yes, I'm fully aware that this is NOT what any of you are proposing here, but this IS the ideology of the Game Maker Toolkit video. As much as the presenter is willing to compromise, the underlying ideology is still held as the ultimate goal of design. Accessibility options exist, but they're there expressly for players who are UNABLE to play the game as intended. And even then, accessibility options exist to EASE players into playing the game as intended. No concession appears to be made for those who are able to play the game at a higher level but don't enjoy that and deliberately choose not to.

My own post history is full of this. I've lost count of how many times I've had to tell bullies that "My issue isn't that I CAN'T do this. I can and have. My issue is that it's not FUN!" All too often, game design is interpreted solely through the lens of what players are or aren't able to accomplish, with no consideration given to whether they had any fun doing it. It's simply taken as granted that the ability to defeat a challenge is intrinsically fun with no supporting evidence, and arguments are constructed on that basic assumption. Sometimes, for some people? Sure, definitely. Always for all people? Absolutely not. Most of the time for most people? I'd argue not even remotely. "Games as a sport" is one of those things that gets passed around as fact and many people simply accept as true due to saturation, but it tends to have long-lasting damaging effects for some players. I'm one of them.

I have a history of compulsive gaming, diving deep and spending massive amounts of time on activities that I had convinced myself were fun for me, but which were ultimately not. I know first-hand how difficult it is to tell habit from enjoyment from the inside looking out, and how easy it is to sink thousands of hours into something that's fundamentally not worth spending time on because you keep telling yourself it's worth it. Only when you "break the cycle" and abandon said activity for months or years can you really look back objectively and judge whether it was fun, or whether it was drudgery. That's why I have such a mix of both really fond memories for the old game City of Heroes, as well as such horrible unpleasant ones. The idea that the only way to enjoy video games is to treat them as a sport in which you're improving and "playing better" is merely one aspect of compulsion. The search for "challenge" can often spoil the fun of a game where easier gameplay might be genuinely more fun. Because one is convinced that they have to try harder or they're playing it wrong, however, one might simply not play the fun parts. That's precisely what happened to Payday 2, with a large portion of the community trying to play One Down / Death Sentence, absolutely hating the experience, complaining about the experience on the forums and still playing it because... Well, that's the highest difficulty and you're supposed to play the highest difficulty.

The whole point of this MASSIVE DERAILING of the thread is to say one simple thing: There's nothing wrong with a game having a high skill ceiling. There's nothing wrong with a game NOT having a high skill ceiling, either. If we're going to increase the game's skill ceiling, I'm going to require more of a reason for that than for its own sake. Create the need for a higher skill level first, THEN provide that skill level.

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On 2020-10-23 at 4:05 PM, Loza03 said:

Indeed. If I had to boil my issues with the actual movement system itself down into one word, it would be 'momentum'. If the joy of Parkour is getting from point A to point B, then Bullet Jump simply setting momentum to a specific amount robs a lot of the joy out of that. There's no run up, no way to get extra 'oomph' out of your moves - as soon as you make that input, you're set to the pre-existing 'this is your parkour speed'.

If you're just spamming bullet jumps you're doing it wrong. Bullet jump into an immediate double-jump and cancel into an air roll to build forward and downward momentum, tap crouch to slide instead of hard landing, immediately repeat the combo. Weave in things like delayed double jumps for midair directional changes, air glides to cross longer chasms and avoid having to jump out of lower areas, and situational stuff like rolling reactively to avoid staggers. Once you learn the common tiles you can traverse basically any mission in <2-3 minutes, and a good chunk of that will go to things like hacking spy vaults and capturing targets.

Once you get good at it you should be pinballing through tiles too fast to be shot, skimming over and under obstacles, redirecting off of all sorts of random terrain. You can do it blind on tiles you don't know but your reactions and ability to read the map and predict how it will develop need to be much better.

Proper 2.0 movement combined with operator dashing for large open spaces overshadows the rest of the parkour toolkit for the same reason that coptering did in 1.0. The only difference back then is that there was no fast way to traverse vertically so people still had to wallclimb (or use Super Jump back when Excal had that).

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1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

The thing is these elements where or are still in Warframe.

Everything seen in that video. Wall running instead of wall hopping was in the game. It was just track based and stiff. The grapple is Valkyr's Ripline fully realized. Even the slowdown quick movements mid air is in Warframe. It's just all done in an inferior manner for Warframe. It doesn't have to be a platformer. It's the smooth flow of the movements I'm pointing out. Even grabbing ledges and pulling themselves up is quick and smooth. The entire thing is far more ninja-like.

The smoothness of the animations, sure, same thing as I want. Unlock the animations, make that faster. In that respect, yes, absolutlely.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Personally I think Bulletjump was one of the worst additions they made to Warframe movement. It removes a lot of environmental awareness. Why jump off walls, scale cliffs or even make use of teleports if you can just jump spam through a mission. Coptering wasn't any better but... That was the wrong direction.

That's largely why I want momentum to play a larger role. The answer of 'why jump off walls and use the environment when you can jump spam' can be answered with 'because using the environment is faster, or confers an added benefit in combat' - in the latter case, increased survivability or...

5 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Even more importantly IMO is there are less enemies making the player's movement, taking cover and other actions matter much more.

I would love this.  In part that's due to the sheer scale of Warframe powers allowing players to just ignore enemies, but that's more a larger-scale balance issue beyond the scope of this thread. Still, enemies that have more movement abilities or generally discourage stationary play would be awesome.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2020-10-29 at 10:31 AM, Steel_Rook said:

This is why I'm in favour of increasing the complexity of enemy design

yeah, i like this idea, am with making destructible shields and barriers or doors which players have to destroy or decode more often than just shooting at things or meleeing those, it has gotten detailed in the orb mother fight i coulnt keep up at first so it would be good to have otherways to accomplish the same task but the rewards would have to differ to be interesting RNG or have the pickups and reload energy packets influence movement and aiming UI, or otherwise the environment how each planet should make a large difference, because i dont think that the pick-ups are always the most accurate arcade element is great, but i think some other improvemts should be in the coming days, dont wanna just step on ammo grids and health balls which are either uselss or converted into something else but only through mod/ weapons and sometimes abilities, so its like there is a barrier about the vaccuum and trash we can get from casually winning a fight and collectibles should make sense to have a trick where the players decide to jump over or perform bulletjump for a special use for cluter in the fields, thers alot of arcanes but there is more items and exclusives, so what i think you can do is allow the operators other purpose and firing updates as well as the void and elemental which they use in their carbines to react to noise and environmental, as well as the pickups, since there is no actual reload feature for operators guns, kitguns later, and k-drive w/o mod0s, revive and emote rewarding the combat experience as well throgh passive traits and %^UP,  as they are unlocked and equiped to have different uses, glyphs are also soft kin, so that makes the world of pets and robots avaliable for getting orbiter tricks and put to use those pickups.

so that just leaves the enemies which die too easily to have health and revival options instead of just overshields, i think their weapons and conflic should be resolved if they were to occasionally blow-up and cause knockback in some cases the enemies just die and leave no acid trail, so it should bring up the gore value to have the blood and gasoline afffect the warframs in positive and negative ways tainting the UI like dukenukem and doom, the players otherwise feel immortal or same, the enemies drop their weapons and loot, occasionally a blueprint makes sense but its not like am not going to sell it, so there has to be some combative uses or improvemetns to give the players reasons to scavenge their bodies or fight the same types of enemies who carry the usual same BP, and red guy with gun dies, and his riffle should still fire while his finger is pressing the trigger from rigormortis, unless the player finishes them, uses the parazon from long-distance or drains their energy and scavenges for items logically theres alot of options and abilities, but the enemies should get a priority bad-ass update soon.

if i was an enemy soldier i would get a katana and more overshields and a dog like yojimbo, so that there is more ninjas and melee enemies which only become vulnerable to bullets after they are melee'd and hit, i think kuva is the same idea but its very incomplete and the rewards are not that fun to me or task since they can be failed and are always the same, so alot of players dont even know how to join these things or what they are, so might as well make them optional events across the other planets instead of just forcing players to the mode, and give lich another update too, the excavators and tennopods are also held back and should be reinforced by giving the relays and syndicates more interesting stories and resons to return their tenno or villageers, than just getting a few points we the goal would be generic or temporary access to affinity boosters with the kills and systems of combat, but players want to give a look at towns, afk and orbiter, so archwing is the anwers, obviously, idk, i been out of the game for a while so archwing is the answer.

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