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Why does loyalty still exist?


PAK1988

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18 hours ago, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

They are made from the technology available during their time. Fuel reserves and boost levels on a ship is normal and adds a system with the feeling of realism to it. 

My dude, Railjacks have a void engine.  They're powered by the same thing warframes are powered by.

 

 

18 hours ago, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

Try and think about it just a little logically

The irony.

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On 2020-11-17 at 6:15 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

My dude, Railjacks have a void engine.  They're powered by the same thing warframes are powered by.

 

 

The irony.

Actually, the void engine or rather, the "relic" is only harnessed for jumping through the void in order to reach destinations much more quickly. A good example of this is the ship in the movie "Event Horizon" with which it shares it's namesake. In the movie, the ship uses a what they call a "Gravity Drive" to create a black hole, with which they harness to fold both space and time together, essentially allowing near instant transportation or rather, teleporting. But when not in use, the ship uses it's normal engines and reactor for typical aviation, maneuvering and, as DE puts it, "Tactical Avionics"

Anyway, the Tenno, their somatic links and the proxies they pilot while developed and harnessed by the orokin, The Tennos' power is a gift directly from the man in the wall. It's natural they use the same type of energy to function. But a reactor powered by an artifact in relation to actual orokin children personally blessed with abilities from the man himself, well, there's no comparison. well, at least not a logical one. Lol. 

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On 2020-11-16 at 10:16 PM, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

You got to go by animalistic behavior.

A dog is loyal to its owner, and thus the strength of that bond increases damage because it actually wants to protect you. If you neglect it, it will seek a new owner. Its opinion of you changes based on how good you are to them. That's common sense folks. 

Now a cat, is a whole other story. Cats retain their predatory nature and instinct regardless of domestication. They're always alert, always on the lookout if they're healthy. They keep their own claws sharp.  So it's natural on this method.

This is why a cat or should I say a Kavat, doesnt require the same system as a Kubrow. Cats are often indifferent when it comes being domesticated. even if dependent on their owner, they maintain a image of independence. 

I can't deny you make a decent case here, but at the very least DE should increase the number of interactions per-day as well as doubling the amount of loyalty each one gives back, since you lose twice as much per death than you can gain back. Also, does this apply to the Predasites?

Also, I still feel a system like this shouldn't be tied to something as essential as damage output. Let's at least agree that the way DE has implemented this needs some serious tweaking.

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On 2020-11-17 at 11:46 AM, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

Bottom line, realism is relatable if it fits with the lore. Realism adds more fun and strategy to the game. Realism is king. 

I am gonna have to disagree with you here. Since when Video Games are 100% realistic? This is Warframe. A Sci-Fi, Fast Paced, and most importantly Power Fantasy. Realism is out of the question. We have dogs that lay eggs in this game.
 

We play games to have fun, but sometime reality is taking that fun away. Loyalty is part of that. Sure realism can sometime be nice and relatable but it shouldn’t hinder our gameplay too much and take our fun away. If your kubrow dies in combat it lost 30% of it’s base damage. To recover that, you have to pet it 3 times and the maximum amount of loyalty you can recover per day is 30%. This is pretty annoying especially when your kubrow dies in Arbitration because of no way to revive it in combat, you basically lost 30% of your kubrow’s damage if the dumb AI didn’t dodge that group of bombards.

Removing Loyalty is the answer.

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My best guess at DE's design philosophy is this:

"When there's a problem, fix it by releasing new stuff where it's fixed."


At least pets seem to follow this verbatim:

1) Sentinets --> people complain about them dying permanently in mission, leading to loss of vacuum.
2) Kubrows & Kavats --> can be revived. People complain about them being high-maintennance and lack of separate weapons.
3) MOAs --> No loyalty and separate weapons. People complain about them still dying permanently in mission.
4) Vulpaphylas --> Immortal. People complain about lack of separate weapons.

With this being as it is, we'll next get a pet who is immortal and has separate weapons, but has some high-maintennance mechanic - such as rapidly falling loyalty that is brought back with logins.

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20 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I am gonna have to disagree with you here. Since when Video Games are 100% realistic? This is Warframe. A Sci-Fi, Fast Paced, and most importantly Power Fantasy. Realism is out of the question. We have dogs that lay eggs in this game.
 

We play games to have fun, but sometime reality is taking that fun away. Loyalty is part of that. Sure realism can sometime be nice and relatable but it shouldn’t hinder our gameplay too much and take our fun away. If your kubrow dies in combat it lost 30% of it’s base damage. To recover that, you have to pet it 3 times and the maximum amount of loyalty you can recover per day is 30%. This is pretty annoying especially when your kubrow dies in Arbitration because of no way to revive it in combat, you basically lost 30% of your kubrow’s damage if the dumb AI didn’t dodge that group of bombards.

Removing Loyalty is the answer.

Because they go hand in hand. Reality is the foundation of this game, as it is inspired based on our world and how it functions.

Oddly enough, the building blocks of this game are fantasy and depth.

Fantasy + Depth = Simulation

Simulation; being not a carbon copy, but a makeshift imitation of the real reality. It's fairly easy to understand this if you consider the dev's intentions on these mechanics based on their inspirations.

Firstly, the kubrows are NOT dogs, nor are the Kavats, cats. They are alien lifeforms based on our understanding of felines as well as canines. Humans keep these creatures as pets, so just as before, the game simulates a concept from our reality. 

Originally they had a cloned birth with consequences of dna degradation. this simulates that they're living creatures that we provide sustenance. Loyalty serves as several different factors. Bottom line being at it's base, is designed to give you a close experience to what it was like to have a pet, take care of it and love it. 

In other words, it's plausible for animals to reproduce using eggs. It's also understood that the biological companions are meant to be an imitation to pets like we have in our reality. 

And if I was a pet loyal to you, and you let me get killed in a mission then you can bet loyalties shift. Lol. 

I find that wanting to remove implemented mechanics solely based on the fact a few players find them to be tedious or annoying just exhibits traits of intellectual laziness. 

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34 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

I find that wanting to remove implemented mechanics solely based on the fact a few players find them to be tedious or annoying just exhibits traits of intellectual laziness

"Few Players" are an understatement. Do you know what's the most used beast companions right now? Kavats and Vulpaphylas. Why people use that? To avoid loyalty entirely because Kavat Loyalty never degrades. Vulpaphylas are for immortality.

Tell me, do you even use Kubrows as a main pet and take them to Arbitrations on a regular? I have suspicion that you don't. Screenshot proof or I consider it a lie and put you on ignore. Avid Kubrow users have been screaming for Loyalty removal for years now because of it's arbitrary 3 interactions daily cap. 

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On 2020-11-23 at 4:27 AM, DrivaMain said:

"Few Players" are an understatement. Do you know what's the most used beast companions right now? Kavats and Vulpaphylas. Why people use that? To avoid loyalty entirely because Kavat Loyalty never degrades. Vulpaphylas are for immortality.

Tell me, do you even use Kubrows as a main pet and take them to Arbitrations on a regular? I have suspicion that you don't. Screenshot proof or I consider it a lie and put you on ignore. Avid Kubrow users have been screaming for Loyalty removal for years now because of it's arbitrary 3 interactions daily cap. 

I have an opposing opinion, and you treat me as a liar based on your own experience? I never claimed the integrity or usefulness of the kubrow. I provided a plausible reason as to why they have that system in place. 

You say that a lot of players are demanding the removal of this? What does that change? It just means there are more intellectually lazy and over competitive players than I had estimated. But, that is why it's an estimate, after all. 

There is a plausible reason as to why there is only 3 interactions per day. And that is to keep you on your toes. To make sure you dont neglect them. An extra incentive. 

Players will go out of their way spending hours modifying and testing builds with all sorts of mod combination and strategies. The kubrow pet is just another integral part of that system. 

As far as blocking me, well, I may suggest you do that as soon as you can. Perhaps you should have done so before you bothered sending that last reply of yours, yes? But that's only a suggestion. I respect yours as well as all other opinions on here. Only simpletons will outcast someone because they have a different view point and put an effort to let others know. 

 

Have a nice day. 

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

I provided a plausible reason as to why they have that system in place. 

And that sentence made you lost your credibility. You can't give a strong argument about defending a system if you don't experience it personally.

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

There is a plausible reason as to why there is only 3 interactions per day. And that is to keep you on your toes. To make sure you dont neglect them. An extra incentive. 

 

And that reason is flawed. Do you know Stasis and DNA decay? Back in the day if you neglect DNA Integrity your pet can die permanently. If it dies you have to breed another one. Yes, it was THAT bad. It got changed when arbitrations first introduced. Players again keep screaming about stasis removal because the fix has no meaningful effect and stasis made managing pets a tedious pocess. Fast forward 2 years later, they finally removed it. 

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

You say that a lot of players are demanding the removal of this? What does that change? It just means there are more intellectually lazy and over competitive players than I had estimated. But, that is why it's an estimate, after all. 

I suggest you use the search function.

Don't mix video games with real life too much. It never ends well. Calling others "Intellectually lazy" will only put you on everyone's ignore list. Also Competitive? Do you know what game you are discussing here? This is WARFRAME. A Game for casuals. Don't believe me? This question already answers it

Why does Warframe have no challenging content?

I think Loyalty removal is only a matter of time here, Pets 2.0 is in the works. Since in my point of view you lost your credibility. I will now end this argument and put you on ignore. Good luck on your future defense.

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On 2020-11-27 at 1:39 AM, DrivaMain said:

 

And that sentence made you lost your credibility. You can't give a strong argument about defending a system if you don't experience it personally.

 

 

And that reason is flawed. Do you know Stasis and DNA decay? Back in the day if you neglect DNA Integrity your pet can die permanently. If it dies you have to breed another one. Yes, it was THAT bad. It got changed when arbitrations first introduced. Players again keep screaming about stasis removal because the fix has no meaningful effect and stasis made managing pets a tedious pocess. Fast forward 2 years later, they finally removed it. 

 

I suggest you use the search function.

Don't mix video games with real life too much. It never ends well. Calling others "Intellectually lazy" will only put you on everyone's ignore list. Also Competitive? Do you know what game you are discussing here? This is WARFRAME. A Game for casuals. Don't believe me? This question already answers it

Why does Warframe have no challenging content?

I think Loyalty removal is only a matter of time here, Pets 2.0 is in the works. Since in my point of view you lost your credibility. I will now end this argument and put you on ignore. Good luck on your future defense.

Who said I had no experience in this? I'm no master, that's for certain. But I am experienced enough to form an opinion with references for context. Personally, i don't  mind the current system. It has its pros and cons. 

If it was casually played, we wouldnt be having this conversation. How you choose to play the game, the time and money you may invest into it has no bearings on what the game was, is, or what it may become. 

Complaining that a system so simple that all you have to do is pet a dog to ensure top performance is bad and shouldn't be required is lazy in my opinion, because it's such a simple task. 

I didnt have a problem with the dna integrity either. Why? Because it made sense! Cloned organisms dna does degrade at a substantially higher rate than regular organisms. This is how it functions in our world it adds a tad more realism to the game. It is an adventure/rpg/shooter that you need to be immersed into the game. These little functions make that a bit easier. 

So here you and others are, have a companion, that receives its sustenance to live from DNA integrity restorations. And performs better when you interact with it. A bonding process. 

So here you are, upset that you have a companion that you have to feed to keep alive. Here you are, also upset that you cant neglect this animal entirely and have it still perform at top potential in the face of danger for a master that would barely give it the time of day otherwise. 

I know if I was your "dog" I'd consign myself and call the popo. Question is, is this how you treat animals or pets if you have one in real life as well?

 

The system is simple, realistic, logical and a tad bit tedious. But that's what gives it the ability to simulate the pet and companion experience. 

 

You've forgotten, the idea of being on other player's ignore lists, or losing what you consider to be "credibility" does not affect me in the least. I learned some time ago to not worry on how people feel about me. And putting someone you dont enjoy in any sense on an ignore list is fine, because the ignore list, is also a system implemented to be a feature both here and in game.  Nothing wrong with using the feature. 

 

Lol. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I didn't really intend for this thread to turn into a heated argument. I'll just say you both have great points, but I have to side with practicality over immersion or realism. That's not to say loyalty, if necessary to keep in, can't be repurposed to affect some other stat or effect, it just should NOT be tied to something as essential as damage output.

And, for the record, I have alot of fondness for my kubrows and see them as if they were my own pets. I often pet them just to pet them and sincerely feel bad when they die, even if it was their fault, but that doesn't change how painfully inept their AI is and, if we're going to be stuck dealing with that, the player shouldn't be penalized for a pet loss that was likely beyond their control.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Whelp, I've just verified through testing that loyalty does, in fact, apply to Predasites as well. In hindsight, loyalty is a relatively minor inconvenience, but it's still very unfair because the player is getting penalized for something likely beyond their control, as pets don't exactly have a reputation for being smart and get taken out by AOE or some other circumstance that the player can't prevent.

I still say it's annoying, obsolete and asinine. At the very least, it should be re-balanced to restore more loyalty per interaction, loose less loyalty on death, and/or allow more interactions per day. And, once again, the best outcome would be simply to change what loyalty affects, basically anything that doesn't handicap pets like damage output.

If someone from DE actually reads this, can you please at least take this into consideration and make some of these changes in the future? I feel certain that the majority of the player base wouldn't object.

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On 2020-11-17 at 5:16 AM, (XBOX)Tideryius said:

A dog is loyal to its owner, and thus the strength of that bond increases damage because it actually wants to protect you. If you neglect it, it will seek a new owner. Its opinion of you changes based on how good you are to them. That's common sense folks. 

I agree with this. Though there are some problems with how Loyalty currently functions (like the max. 30% increase per 24 hour-cycle, which is simply ridiculous) it should be seen not from a min-max perspective (where "the extra damage buff is what we all have a right to have, all the the time") but from a "temporary extra buff from being nice to your kubrow/dog"-perspective.

Most of us don't care that much about our pets, or about the damage that they do. At best they fulfil other functions, increasing drops, stats, radar or sucking up loot for us (actually increasing our loot-sucking radius). But a mechanic for those that do care or for newer players that actually (for a while) benefit from a strong companion, which allows you to temporary increase the damage output by being kind to your pet is not "wrong". In any way.

However, while the "leaving your kubrow to die"-debuff makes complete sense from such a perspective, the "having to spend 4 real-world days to get a max buff" and the "losing 10% for every day you are not loyal to DE by logging in"-debuff makes no sense whatsoever. The "not logging in"-debuff should be removed, and the "pet your pet"-buff should be changed to "pet once for 100% damage increase for the next hour/mission". Then it would be totally ok (for me). I might even (mostly out of principle) pet my kubrow once in a awhile...

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1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

However, while the "leaving your kubrow to die"-debuff makes complete sense from such a perspective, the "having to spend 4 real-world days to get a max buff" and the "losing 10% for every day you are not loyal to DE by logging in"-debuff makes no sense whatsoever. The "not logging in"-debuff should be removed, and the "pet your pet"-buff should be changed to "pet once for 100% damage increase for the next hour/mission". Then it would be totally ok (for me). I might even (mostly out of principle) pet my kubrow once in a awhile...

They could just add in +1 % or +2% loyalty gain per mission completed with surviving doggo. Job done. Spend time with pup, forge the bond in combat, all that jazz. But it's not so high a generation that the petting, abandoning,or the letting-them-die are completely inconsequential.

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Many good suggestions here. I wonder if all this is because the devs have an affinity for felines? Even the Helminth Chair is a "cat person" and has some sort of alergic reaction to kubrows. The Charm mod is insanely overpowered when compared to any kubrow. So maybe DE is punishing "dog people" ?

Spoiler

Dj Cats GIF by Product HuntMaybe cats are running the show...

 

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As a game developer, going back to fix old systems always feels like more work than making something new that is shinier and better. They would need to cut the loyalty mechanic and that includes its place in the Incubator UI. This could create bugs. These things cost development money that would otherwise be spent on new gameplay and content.

I don't think they intended for the Kubrow to be underpowered, so much as they intended for the newer pets to be even more awesome, and just don't see enough value and bring Kubrows up to par. They threw us a bone (no pun intended) with the last Nutrio Upgrade update, but doesn't seem they are going any farther yet.

Kubrows still do have a role to play, and that's an additional pet with features beyond the initial Taxon new players get for free. I've had my Kubrow for hundreds of hours and still don't have a Kavat yet, so it has served me very well (it's Huras, so it's awesomely useful in solo). Once I get a Kavat I will likely lament how they are better than Kubrows for less effort, but until that time I've had many great and useful hours, loyalty system and all. Even then, my Huras Kubrow will still be uniquely helpful at least.

TLDR; removing Kubrow Loyalty costs programmer and QA money which is currently directed elsewhere.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2021-01-09 at 4:56 PM, MontyCulligan said:

As a game developer, going back to fix old systems always feels like more work than making something new that is shinier and better. They would need to cut the loyalty mechanic and that includes its place in the Incubator UI. This could create bugs. These things cost development money that would otherwise be spent on new gameplay and content.

I don't think they intended for the Kubrow to be underpowered, so much as they intended for the newer pets to be even more awesome, and just don't see enough value and bring Kubrows up to par. They threw us a bone (no pun intended) with the last Nutrio Upgrade update, but doesn't seem they are going any farther yet.

Kubrows still do have a role to play, and that's an additional pet with features beyond the initial Taxon new players get for free. I've had my Kubrow for hundreds of hours and still don't have a Kavat yet, so it has served me very well (it's Huras, so it's awesomely useful in solo). Once I get a Kavat I will likely lament how they are better than Kubrows for less effort, but until that time I've had many great and useful hours, loyalty system and all. Even then, my Huras Kubrow will still be uniquely helpful at least.

TLDR; removing Kubrow Loyalty costs programmer and QA money which is currently directed elsewhere.

Fine, but, as I keep saying, it can be tweaked to be more fair without ripping the entire system out if it would be that problematic.

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  • 2 months later...

Also not only did they remove the main ability to stop loyalty decay if you don't/can't login every day, but it also *still* decays even if you switch to a sentinel. The only way to stop it decaying is to switch to a kavat or other beast that doesn't have loyalty first, *then* switch to what ever sentinel you actually want to use. This is also now the only way to replicate the stasis function to stop loyalty decay.

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On 2021-04-11 at 10:33 PM, inSolaris said:

Also not only did they remove the main ability to stop loyalty decay if you don't/can't login every day, but it also *still* decays even if you switch to a sentinel. The only way to stop it decaying is to switch to a kavat or other beast that doesn't have loyalty first, *then* switch to what ever sentinel you actually want to use. This is also now the only way to replicate the stasis function to stop loyalty decay.

You know, I wanted to think that DE wouldn't do that, that I simply forgot to interact with my Kubrow, assuming they had just died at some point and I hadn't restored their loyalty yet, but, if you're right then, wow..... DE, wtf were you thinking? This is grossly unfair and yet another indicator of DE half-***ing it. I mean, just wow, I'm at a loss for words atm.

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  • 3 months later...

Well....since DE has officially axed Loyalty and DNA Degradation in the latest update, that kinda renders this thread obsolete. Still, I've enjoyed the discussion here and I wholeheartedly thank DE for, well, doing what I wanted to see for awhile.

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