Nailclipper Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 So I finally tried Destiny (2: New Light) and have been playing it for like a month or so (Warlock, around 1030 power level). There are a number of things that Warframe does (much) better like the music, voice acting, or writing, but here I want to focus on the positives of Destiny 2 so DE could perhaps apply them to Warframe 2 when we get it in 2035. Dedicated servers and no "host migration" system for the P2P instances This allows the gameworld/maps to be more open, vibrant, and feel a lot less like a cramped corridor shooter. However, this has a drawback that you can't really become attached to random players and make friends with them because you never stick with any of them for long. Difficulty I feel that Destiny 2 nails this perfectly. First there's level scaling which solves a lot of gameplay balance problems and ensures that players with different levels can play with each other on the same content. I used to hate level scaling in my single player RPGs (hello Oblivion) where a sewer rat is as strong as an ancient red dragon but it could be appropriate for MMOs (the enemies also need to be suitable for level scaling in order to not break immersion). Secondly, I feel that Destiny 2 has an excellent mob AI, e.g. enemies use cover often and effectively and can flank you. The enemies also posses much more varied attacks and moves. Most bosses are just big bullet sponges though, at least that's what I've come across so far. Oh and apparently Bungie doesn't shy away from making really tough missions like Zero Hour or Whisper of the Worm (I gave up because they are too damn hard). No wasted content This is mainly achieved with the help of level scaling and seamless transition between areas. There could be more but for now those 3 are the big ones that I can remember. Minor things I prefer are Destiny's clean and minimalist UI and that you can travel from anywhere to any place or mission you like seamlessly because there's no orbiter/personal hub system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazerXPrime Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 You forget that people don't play warframe for the challenge. I mean don't listen to the 0.0001% of the playerbase that wanted a "hard mode". Players want to mow stuff down and get stronger and mow stronger stuff down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Nailclipper said: Dedicated servers and no "host migration" system for the P2P instances If DE can spend 50 million dollars per year? Sure 10 minutes ago, Nailclipper said: Difficulty And that’s where I stopped reading. How are you gonna introduce “challenging” content that is accepted by the community who whines when being slightly challenged? Remember they are paying customers too. They can vote with their wallets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhiThagRaid Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said: You forget that people don't play warframe for the challenge. I mean don't listen to the 0.0001% of the playerbase that wanted a "hard mode". Players want to mow stuff down and get stronger and mow stronger stuff down. I hate this sentiment that the warframe community just doesn't want difficulty. If you could show me a source that shows this to be the case, I might be willing to believe it, but just throwing out a number that makes the people who want it seem insignificant does not help the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x_xGamerx_x Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, PhiThagRaid said: the warframe community just doesn't want difficulty. Agreed. If Nailclipper really wants difficutly, there is always the steel path, randomized loadouts, grinding sessions over 1 hours... . However the majority of the playerbase want new stuff as quick as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazerXPrime Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, PhiThagRaid said: I hate this sentiment that the warframe community just doesn't want difficulty. If you could show me a source that shows this to be the case, I might be willing to believe it, but just throwing out a number that makes the people who want it seem insignificant does not help the case. You can see how players enjoy playing the game by watching litterally any youtube video or reading what people want from this game. More power. More destruction. Point is, the game was never difficult to begin with and there's people playing for 5 years. If you have a game that allows nearly infinite power scaling and allows you to be so much more powerful than your enemies and people are drawn to this game then what you're basically saying with a higher difficulty is that you remove one of the key things that identifies Warframe. I don't think you should compare two games even though they share similarities. You want a more difficult game? Play something else. Want to have fun and cause utter destruction while being a space ninja? Play warframe. No game has to be "everything". 2 minutes ago, x_xGamerx_x said: Agreed. If Nailclipper really wants difficutly, there is always the steel path, randomized loadouts, grinding sessions over 1 hours... . However the majority of the playerbase want new stuff as quick as possible. I wouldn't say that. There's lots of grind in this game and a lot of stuff isn't quick to get. No that's not it. People just want to feel powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Enemies appear to react more organically to your actions because you as the Player are like 10x slower and otherwise restricted. the singular number that the game scales everything around is a big letdown if you ask me. and the other games that have since copied it, also therefore are a disappointment. it's simple for the game to make calculations off of, but it makes your individual pieces of Equipment less relevant. and for Destiny even goes as far to make your Equipment literally irrelevant, it's just the Light number on it that matters. something with objectively worse Stats but a higher Light? it's objectively better. being able to fuse things helps with that problem but doesn't change that the problem is there to begin with. that only a singular number on your Equipment really matters. and that number isn't even a real Stat, it's just a pretend one. it even goes so far as to grind lock you with that number. if your Light isn't high enough, you either can't enter something or you'll take like 10x normal Damage and deal 10x less Damage (or sometimes literally 0). you're not allowed to play this yet, go grind your singular number some more and then it'll be cruise control like usual. so boring and lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailclipper Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, taiiat said: Enemies appear to react more organically to your actions because you as the Player are like 10x slower and otherwise restricted. I agree with you but I still feel that Destiny 2 has better enemy AI. The enemies also have more attack patterns and moves. 8 minutes ago, taiiat said: the singular number that the game scales everything around is a big letdown if you ask me. and the other games that have since copied it, also therefore are a disappointment. it's simple for the game to make calculations off of, but it makes your individual pieces of Equipment less relevant. and for Destiny even goes as far to make your Equipment literally irrelevant, it's just the Light number on it that matters. something with objectively worse Stats but a higher Light? it's objectively better. being able to fuse things helps with that problem but doesn't change that the problem is there to begin with. that only a singular number on your Equipment really matters. and that number isn't even a real Stat, it's just a pretend one. it even goes so far as to grind lock you with that number. if your Light isn't high enough, you either can't enter something or you'll take like 10x normal Damage and deal 10x less Damage (or sometimes literally 0). you're not allowed to play this yet, go grind your singular number some more and then it'll be cruise control like usual. so boring and lame. I didn't touch that gameplay mechanics because I had a love/hate relationship with it in Defiance (I first encountered it there because it later copied Destiny's leveling mechanics - I didn't play the original Destiny) but here in Destiny 2 I didn't have any problem with it so far, maybe because I always compare weapons with similar light levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)InductiveBag46 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 After putting 3k hours into warframe, i can honestly say it wasn't worth it, I agree with your take. Here's a common misconception tho, DE isn't some unknown small indie team. In fact they earn just as much as bungie, they get away with any false promises and micro transactions for which other companies this big would be roasted alive for. The problem lies with the community, like LOR said you get waves of new players with tonnes of stuff to do, that lead nowhere. They turn into so called 'vets' that complain about lack of difficulty and engame, but get shut down by the influx of newer players and usual white knights who mind you- play captura and dojo decorating longer that normal missions (and out in the real world smh). Give up, no-one will take this seriously and the game will slowly decline over the years, while destiny will thrive with loyal fans and far better community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrivaMain Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, PhiThagRaid said: I hate this sentiment that the warframe community just doesn't want difficulty. If you could show me a source that shows this to be the case, I might be willing to believe it, but just throwing out a number that makes the people who want it seem insignificant does not help the case. Massive outrage when clearly overpowered stuff or anything that trivializes the entire game whacked by the nerf hammer. “X content or enemy too hard” complaints. “Railjack solo is impossible” complaints but Railjack even at launch easy pretty easy to solo if you want some example.. here it is. The search function only finds threads that are not archived for some odd reason. During Fortuna Launch there was a special fortuna subforum. Back then, they are hundreds of complaints that demand fortuna enemies to be less difficult and a hassle to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazerXPrime Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 11 minutes ago, (XB1)InductiveBag46 said: After putting 3k hours into warframe, i can honestly say it wasn't worth it, I agree with your take. Here's a common misconception tho, DE isn't some unknown small indie team. In fact they earn just as much as bungie, they get away with any false promises and micro transactions for which other companies this big would be roasted alive for. The problem lies with the community, like LOR said you get waves of new players with tonnes of stuff to do, that lead nowhere. They turn into so called 'vets' that complain about lack of difficulty and engame, but get shut down by the influx of newer players and usual white knights who mind you- play captura and dojo decorating longer that normal missions (and out in the real world smh). Give up, no-one will take this seriously and the game will slowly decline over the years, while destiny will thrive with loyal fans and far better community. 3K hours and you say it wasn't worth it. The only one to blame here is yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)InductiveBag46 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said: 3K hours and you say it wasn't worth it. The only one to blame here is yourself. I fell in love with this game, but lately i realised destiny respects my time far more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)DarknessZeref Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Nailclipper said: So I finally tried Destiny (2: New Light) and have been playing it for like a month or so (Warlock, around 1030 power level). There are a number of things that Warframe does (much) better like the music, voice acting, or writing, but here I want to focus on the positives of Destiny 2 so DE could perhaps apply them to Warframe 2 when we get it in 2035. Dedicated servers and no "host migration" system for the P2P instances This allows the gameworld/maps to be more open, vibrant, and feel a lot less like a cramped corridor shooter. However, this has a drawback that you can't really become attached to random players and make friends with them because you never stick with any of them for long. Difficulty I feel that Destiny 2 nails this perfectly. there's level scaling No wasted content This is mainly achieved with the help of level scaling and seamless transition between areas. those 3 are the big ones Highlighting the drawback to point out Warframe has this exact same issue. Both games have a weakness in the investment they've put into the clan/community systems. Warframe would feel so much more alive with a Clan Registry to find other Clans, a Dojo Foundry and Dojo Operator Uplink complete with Direct Dojo Login Spawn Point. Such small things with significant impact. Highlighting Difficulty because I feel very strongly that Destiny makes itself consistently difficult by locking new items behind missions they set above your current light level. By making this the norm, it's always challenging. Every mission. My last point plays into yours, no wasted content. When everything is a challenge to overcome, each mission is truly an undertaking and is remembered in its own right, and longer. With Warframe's AI derping about, no tactics, maybe 1 grenade, no outstanding powers, no commanding units, you end up derping as a player. I do understand the implications of boosting the AI, though. Warframe is already hard enough for a ton of people for reasons mainly related to ignorance. To add those things into Warframe without easing up on newbies would really accelerate attrition and attract former players... Good middle ground is to introduce enhanced AI at level 35 so newbies can get it together, but attrition is still a big thing. Every title has whiners on difficulty, but they have wallets too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazerXPrime Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, (XB1)InductiveBag46 said: I fell in love with this game, but lately i realised destiny respects my time far more That's cool man. No one is forcing your to live your life a certain way. You play you move on to something else. But saying the time investment wasn't worth it is really odd. This would mean you didn't have fun at all in those 3K hours... I mean the only reason people play video games is for the fun. If it's not fun you don't play it. If you spent 3K hours on something you did not enjoy then... well... I don't know what to say. You must be a masochist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)DarknessZeref Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 22 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said: 3K hours and you say it wasn't worth it. The only one to blame here is yourself. 2.5k in myself and agree with you here. I like it as is, even when just staring at the pretty shiny-ness of it all. No shame, love your game. Worth it, especially as a backdrop - wow is our dojo beautiful 😍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 45 minutes ago, Nailclipper said: maybe because I always compare weapons with similar light levels. which is a chore that the game gives you - you have to first fix any Equipment that you get, to merge it to your current Light. it's ridiculous that you have to fix every single item that you get. oh and not to mention that increasing Light is about just playing as much as possible and no further agency, because the game gives you Rewards based on your own Light (Plus Storage but w/e), and will slowly trickle you minor upgrades from time to time. which sounds good on paper except once the Player knows about this, any 'coolness' in Equipment evaporates as you know that everything is predetermined and you can even plot on a Calendar about when you'll get what Light upgrades. meh. 27 minutes ago, DrivaMain said: The search function only finds threads that are not archived for some odd reason. it's a great way to bury useful stuff and only leave the undesirable left, isn't it. Search Engines bypasses this artificially created restriction though, so it's ultimately pointless, but hey they'll do whatever they want anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Nailclipper said: Difficulty I feel that Destiny 2 nails this perfectly. First there's level scaling which solves a lot of gameplay balance problems and ensures that players with different levels can play with each other on the same content. Down scaling between players is great when done right. Marvel Heroes solved it very nicely and kept progression relevant. You got full bang for your buck even if you did lowbie content at max level, your gear simply scaled down to match the max level of the zone. So if you did a level 30 zone, your Mjolnir unique would provide you the combat stats of a level 30 Mjolnir but you'd keep things like +8 to X skill, just as your hero kept all runewords, skill points and everything else as if he were max level. What is horrible is constant level scaling, since it nearly or completely blocks any sense of progress. Which is a problem in many PL based systems where it is the same to fight a level 150 mob at PL100 as it is to fight a level 250 mob at PL200. This is also something that cannot ever be achieved here due to a completely different progression system where levels only indicate what skills you have access to on your frame/weapon pretty much while mods decide the remaining 90% of your progression and build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luciole77 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Dedicated servers are highly unlikely for DE. DE is a small producer and has only 1 game to maintain. It is free because there are no dedicated servers and there is no strong content production in the game ... it is a game that aims at some audience to win with advertisers and what comes from profit is aimed at medical entities. It is a business model more focused on people and casual fun. DE's budget is not as large as that of large producers and this limits its action a lot. And yet what they did is admirable. But I confess that DE should change some things in the game starting with the development team because the game is in need of more creativity and new and excited people have new ideas and other visions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Destiny series was a originally a buy to play game, with full priced paid explansions. Thats why it has better quality stuff interns of voice acting and such. The difficultly and balancing isnt really comparible though, since there in different shooter genres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailclipper Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said: ... This is also something that cannot ever be achieved here due to a completely different progression system where levels only indicate what skills you have access to on your frame/weapon pretty much while mods decide the remaining 90% of your progression and build. This is very true, a complete gear based system (and your gear have no level) à la Monster Hunter makes "level"/progression/power scaling impossible. But what do I know, maybe there's a way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)dday3six Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 hour ago, (XB1)InductiveBag46 said: I fell in love with this game, but lately i realised destiny respects my time far more I’m not sure I’d say Destiny respected my time when Bungie constantly exploits players’ fear of missing out by relying heavily on limited time access gear being BiS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serafim_94 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 2 часа назад, PhiThagRaid сказал: I hate this sentiment that the warframe community just doesn't want difficulty. If you could show me a source that shows this to be the case, I might be willing to believe it, but just throwing out a number that makes the people who want it seem insignificant does not help the case. The popularity of the game that last had challenge somewhere during closed beta speaks for itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR3E Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 We also need gamemod same like Gambit Prime for playing against full fireteam of cheaters, I can't enjoying playing warframe without it. And please cut off half of game, ty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bad4youLT Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 As someone whos been on D2 for almost 2 years , I can say "light level" system is BS mechanic , all it does is determines how much damage you deal to enemys wich has a cap and how much damage enemy deals to you wich has no cap ( yah enemy can insta kill you if you're to below but if you are way over their LL it has no effect ) wich I personaly hate . And Bungie basacly uses this mechanic as to "tweak" difficulty of the game , AI's no better then Warframes , certen units just have more moves then others same as here . Worse thing about D2 is damage system wich is like LL , its gimic to . The one thing I wount deny is elephant in a room wich is cruisable and raids . PVP in D1 and D2 actually rewards players with something usefull and raids are in indeed dificult content to beat wich is tipe of content I want back in Warframe , I miss LoR . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serafim_94 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 4 минуты назад, bad4youLT сказал: The one thing I wount deny is elephant in a room wich is cruisable and raids . PVP in D1 and D2 actually rewards players with something usefull and raids are in indeed dificult content to beat wich is tipe of content I want back in Warframe , I miss LoR . I've actually played PVP with my friends - we were leveling conclave. Sure, balance is utter trash, and Kuva Bramma with PVE stats made for some... interesting duels. But there are deeper issues. First - the overall speed. Destiny is a console shooter with limited mobility. Warframe is... well, it's Warframe. Try hitting somebody - god forbid with projectile weapon - zipping through the air at 200 MPH. Second - servers. Did you know there are actually servers for Conclave? That are so goddamn horrible that it would be better off running it on P2P. Hit detection with full 5 seconds of delay, with people living literally 1 km away from my house... For PVP to even start being good it needs branched out server infrastructure in different countries. Which is already a money investment better made elsewhere - DE isn't Activision. And even with servers - it's going to be hard, in a way that time and time again proves to be unpopular with wider PVP crowds. People just don't play mobility shooters all that well. They are too hard to approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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