What Warframe can learn from Destiny 2

[(XBOX)KamikaZSquirrel]

https://www.d2checklist.com/1/4611686018433093421/more/chars

If that works it shows my time played etc so it's proof I'm not just slamming a game without first hand experience. 

I cannot find my Destiny (vanilla) stat's but I have played a lot of both.. 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I can't speak for Destiny 2, but I know in the first Destiny, the difficulty curve for your average mobs was nearly spot on.  Even if you were totally built out with all the best stuff and max light level and could take on anything, you could go back to the very first area and face the low level enemies there and if you started slacking, they could still present a credible threat.

DE is a company of extremes though, so I don't really think they can hit that level of balance.  Everything in this game is either ridiculously easy or just absolutely stupid.  You're either face tanking so hard you can AFK to get a sandwich and come back to your frame still standing, or you're getting one-shot wondering wtf just hit you.

And the power fantasy IS fun, but it would be nice if the content after the starchart was a little better balanced.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, S1mplyFresh said:

Warframe has a decently high skill-ceiling with the amount of theory-crafting, micro-play, and min-maxing of builds that you can do. The game offers quite a bit of depth for those who want to take it that far, but with no true endgame or challenging content, there's nothing to use all of this knowledge and skill on (this is what makes it impractical and unnecessary).

This may be true, but there's very little skill in the actual execution a lot of the time. That's just as important to consider - after all, this is an action game as much as an RPG. And without much execution required for energy regeneration, and pitiful gains from RNG resources as the alternative, the skill ceiling is capped because the most effective strategies tend to be the least difficult to execute.

For example, Limbo has two playstyles that are commonly-ish known - cataclysm/stasis, and the low-duration build. By all accounts, the latter is the more 'skillful' setup - it requires more management, more time at risk of enemies, and more in-depth buildcrafting (since you need to figure out how much duration is good for you). However, it doesn't perform very well next to Stasis+cataclysm, which requires much less effort to pull off and is much easier to build for both 'financially' (i.e. effort to acquire the parts) and theoretically. Since Stasis is only affected by duration which benefits all Limbo's other abilities, whilst they are only marginally affected by strength, it's easy to figure out that range and duration are the go-to's. Efficiency would barely be a factor even without Limbo's innate energy regen capabilities thanks to Zenurik, Energise and so forth.

That's why I'm of the opinion that Warframe's resource management - primarily energy, but ammo and even health potentially - should be taken out of the mod, equipment and operator systems and into the weapon selection and player performance. The former adds more interest to theory crafting (since weapons aren't just used for raw damage, giving more value to different parts of the loadout) and the latter helps the more esoteric builds compete with the straightforward ones, since they are no longer able to be maintained constantly with little player input. The player must consider where their next 'paycheck' for powers are coming from. Especially hungry frames could even get energy built into their loadout - perhaps Ember has a lot of drain but gets energy back fast when killing via her weaker DPS powers?

[Dunkelheit]

Am 25.10.2020 um 13:09 schrieb (XB1)InductiveBag46:

I fell in love with this game, but lately i realised destiny respects my time far more

By sunsetting weapons and content and thus taking away everything you earned? Holy cow, yours is an interesting opinion for sure about how you respect your playerbases time.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel:

Speaking of guns, notice how many are utter trash? Warframe allows EVERY weapon to be viable when modded and Forma'd up. 

Oh please, take your fanboyism somewhere else. You can't possibly think that's true.

[Corvid]

57 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Oh please, take your fanboyism somewhere else. You can't possibly think that's true.

I mean... people have taken MK1 weapons into Sortie 3, ESO and Arbitrations, which are currently the highest level progression-fueling "activities" (SP doesn't really give you anything progression-wise. All of its rewards can either be obtained elsewhere, are utility items that don't increase your power, or are flat out cosmetics).

Remember, Viable =/= Optimal.

[Krankbert]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Corvid:

I mean... people have taken MK1 weapons into Sortie 3, ESO and Arbitrations, which are currently the highest level progression-fueling "activities" (SP doesn't really give you anything progression-wise. All of its rewards can either be obtained elsewhere, are utility items that don't increase your power, or are flat out cosmetics).

Remember, Viable =/= Optimal.

That's what I thought. Here's why you think that more stuff in Warframe is "viable": It's not because Warframe is better designed. It's not because DE put more thought into it than Destiny. It's because Warframe is easy and Destiny isn't. You think that more stuff is viable because the low difficulty has allowed you to water down the definition of "viable" to the point that the word doesn't mean anything anymore.

That's the only thing you're saying here - if everything in a game is "viable", it doesn't mean that the game is better designed or better balanced or whatever you want to call it - all it means is that the game is easy.

[(PSN)Midcall]

4500h in wf. 6200 in Destiny (2100 D1, rest D2). was happy to have a new fav game after i quit d2 shortly after release. was an awesome game until around  mr 16 and higher.  then got very boring, no fear , no challenge  and so on. and u have the feelling as a "vet" u get punished for lot of stuff ... i am a person looking for challenges, hit enemy level 9999 after 14h solo arbitration. Next day got banned  because my mission time was too long. LOOOOOL. (only trade chat ban but still). 

clearly i loved and hated both games in one other another time.  for the most part i took a break from and played the other. but at the end, destiny is the winner for me, this seasons grandmaster nightfall nailed and is the perfect "endgame" thing. 

the other thing is, when content is released on ps4, it was sometimes such a mess and  buggy experience in warframe, a pain , a real pain.  important stuff not working for WEEKS its. people are used to it in this community. 

i really cant imagine that bungie would do this , like ppl do raid and get no loot or any of those gamebreaking bugs we had  in wf ( the world would burn). i enjoyed wf the most at the earlier stages until  mr 15. steelpath was actually great even for max stuff players. what killed wf lastly for me was the "nerf" mentality from DE. the few things i cared about they all took away  the fun ( earning cuva, make a weapon and keep it).  i dont know why they keep nerfing everything in a pve only game , even new  riven have 1 star now. lol. there is simply nothing i could look forward any more. i want to love the game but it doesnt let me at the end lol. 

 

both games are awesome in one other the other way. and wf is  a real f2p title at least (coming from genshin impact and this damn resin S#&$)

[(PSN)thegarada]

23 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

They're still trivial with the right weapons. And god no, Arbis, Sorties etc are a joke but for me, Steel Path is also a joke.

SP is not difficult, but solo, does require ample knowledge of the game and top gear. Also, if you are not careful you can be easily killed. It achieves what it is designed for, being engaging. Less 100% CC which tends to be group. No level of difficulty can solve that.

I have not played destiny, but warframe is similar to ARPG. Diablo and Path of Exile can offer some good insights into enemy design. 

[DrivaMain]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)Midcall said:

this damn resin S#&$

Welcome to Gacha Gambling. Where the players always loses and the devs walk away with full pockets of money.

[(XBOX)KamikaZSquirrel]

3 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Oh please, take your fanboyism somewhere else. You can't possibly think that's true.

Of my entire post you dissect the part that IS the entire game.. The guns.. Yes in fact I do think it's true, it isn't the strongest weapon or build but it's viable if you wish. 

If by difficulty and rewards you enjoy doing something so hard, bashing your head against a wall for an hour and your reward is a gun that's useless, so really you end up with 3 legendary Shards then sure Destiny is the best game out there.

Bungie and Activision were Gouging customers from day 1, now Bungie are on their own what's their excuse for constantly stuffing up? Notice how "D2 Beyond light" is recycling D1? You know why? Because it was better in every single way despite its problems... 

[GPrime96]

6 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

 you're getting one-shot wondering wtf just hit you.

Warframe really need a death tracker like in Destiny 2 telling you what killed you because with so many more enemies in Warframe, it’s rougher to tell what just ended you.

[SpicyDinosaur]

17 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Oh, that's why you didn't upgrade until way down the line. Not because you didn't know that you could but because you didn't exactly know how it worked and didn't bother to find out.

Did you tell us not to ask "when you found out that gear was upgradable" because your argument works better when people don't know that it was actually pretty early on?

That's not the game mechanics being obscure, that's just mental laziness. You've actually wasted more time here whining about how the game didn't spoon-feed you how upgrading gear worked than it would have cost you to upgrade an item and find out.

Jesus, get off their back. Like you've always immediately known how to navigate the HUD etc. of every game you'd ever played.

 

Seriously, who peed in your Wheaties?

 

Edit: NVM your posts are all toxic and nasty. Better to just throw you on ignore.

[AzureTerra]

What is good and works in one game rarely has any meaning in another despite some tangential similarities between games.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

SP is not difficult, but solo, does require ample knowledge of the game and top gear. Also, if you are not careful you can be easily killed. It achieves what it is designed for, being engaging. Less 100% CC which tends to be group. No level of difficulty can solve that.

I have not played destiny, but warframe is similar to ARPG. Diablo and Path of Exile can offer some good insights into enemy design. 

I guess? I'd disagree with that a bit, operators make surviving stupidly easy and it's not hard to acquire Magus Repair or Elevate to basically become immortal. As for top tier gear, I did most of SP solo with a Speed Nova and a Kronen Prime with 2 forma in it and no riven. I will agree with the game knowledge and being aware points however.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2020-10-25 at 3:53 AM, Nailclipper said:

So I finally tried Destiny (2: New Light) and have been playing it for like a month or so (Warlock, around 1030 power level). There are a number of things that Warframe does (much) better like the music, voice acting, or writing, but here I want to focus on the positives of Destiny 2 so DE could perhaps apply them to Warframe 2 when we get it in 2035.

 

Dedicated servers and no "host migration" system for the P2P instances

• This allows the gameworld/maps to be more open, vibrant, and feel a lot less like a cramped corridor shooter. However, this has a drawback that you can't really become attached to random players and make friends with them because you never stick with any of them for long.

Difficulty

• I feel that Destiny 2 nails this perfectly. First there's level scaling which solves a lot of gameplay balance problems and ensures that players with different levels can play with each other on the same content. I used to hate level scaling in my single player RPGs (hello Oblivion) where a sewer rat is as strong as an ancient red dragon but it could be appropriate for MMOs (the enemies also need to be suitable for level scaling in order to not break immersion). Secondly, I feel that Destiny 2 has an excellent mob AI, e.g. enemies use cover often and effectively and can flank you. The enemies also posses much more varied attacks and moves. Most bosses are just big bullet sponges though, at least that's what I've come across so far. Oh and apparently Bungie doesn't shy away from making really tough missions like Zero Hour or Whisper of the Worm (I gave up because they are too damn hard).

No wasted content

• This is mainly achieved with the help of level scaling and seamless transition between areas. 

 

There could be more but for now those 3 are the big ones that I can remember. Minor things I prefer are Destiny's clean and minimalist UI and that you can travel from anywhere to any place or mission you like seamlessly because there's no orbiter/personal hub system.

Sparrows > K-Drives. 
I used the sparrows a lot when I played (up to Warmind as that's the last story expansion that's free). 

I also quite liked the main story missions for Destiny 2's main game, Warmind, and especially Curse of Osiris. I liked how the stories and missions felt interconnected and that you were part of a group (what with the banter and talking done by allied NPC's throughout missions compared to the NPCs in Warframe feeling very disconnected from each other). 

[NinjaZeku]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I also quite liked the main story missions for Destiny 2's main game

You mean the content they've decided to just cut out of the game, leaving mostly the later, purchase-only story stuff?

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

Just now, NinjaZeku said:

You mean the content they've decided to just cut out of the game, leaving mostly the later, purchase-only story stuff?

So, Bungie removed the whole main story, Curse of Osiris and Warmind from the game? 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

2 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

You mean the content they've decided to just cut out of the game, leaving mostly the later, purchase-only story stuff?

And even if they did, that doesn't take away from the fact that I really enjoyed those missions and want aspects from those missions in Warframe. 

[NinjaZeku]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

So, Bungie removed the whole main story, Curse of Osiris and Warmind from the game? 

As I understand it, yes. In fact, (most of?) the early planets are gone in their entirety. It's utterly ludicrous.

[DrivaMain]

Just now, NinjaZeku said:

As I understand it, yes. In fact, (most of?) the early planets are gone in their entirety. It's utterly ludicrous.

And people said retirement of raids was terrible, but removing three Regions? Now that’s another level.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

Just now, NinjaZeku said:

As I understand it, yes. In fact, (most of?) the early planets are gone in their entirety. It's utterly ludicrous.

That sucks. It really does. At the same time, the stuff I liked from Destiny 2 and those missions I'd like to see in Warframe (oh and sparrow is still better than k-drive, boy was I happy when I got the sparrow and used it) liked the feeling that things are interconnected rather than the feeling things and NPCs are disconnected (sans Exploiter Orb, my favorite boss in the game for how the game tells you what it means to the characters in Fortuna). 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

5 hours ago, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

Of my entire post you dissect the part that IS the entire game.. The guns.. Yes in fact I do think it's true, it isn't the strongest weapon or build but it's viable if you wish. 

If by difficulty and rewards you enjoy doing something so hard, bashing your head against a wall for an hour and your reward is a gun that's useless, so really you end up with 3 legendary Shards then sure Destiny is the best game out there.

Bungie and Activision were Gouging customers from day 1, now Bungie are on their own what's their excuse for constantly stuffing up? Notice how "D2 Beyond light" is recycling D1? You know why? Because it was better in every single way despite its problems... 

Gunplay is superior in Destiny 2, hack and slash is superior in Warframe. 

[Cloud]

I think Warframe has so many good ideas, but unfortunately the Dev team has not enough focus. Everytime they come up with something new and interesting, they release it in a beta status and when the hype settles down, they just abandon the project and move on to something else.

I know that something new and shiny sells much more than tuning, fixing and keep developing what already is there.... but the result is that we are collecting a cluster of carcasses of underdeveloped modes and features which moreover are often totally disconnected from the normal activities: focus, archwing, railjack, kuva lich, necramechs, eso, k-drives, pets and so on.

All those make Warframe as a giant collector of dozens disconnected "mini-games". 

Balance is another factor which is always more difficult to deal with. With each new update we become stronger, thus making impossible the task to provide us a not-trivializable mission or new enemies capable to endure that power without reworking how damage and ehp work in the game.

 

I love Warframe, and I'll keep playing it, because more than playing the actual game, I like to see its development. I belive the time I put in it is worth, because the team is not afraid of changes, and the game is not just updated to get cash but actually to improve both visually and substantially. So the hope is alive that if Warframe now is not as I want, it will eventually be it in the future.

 

[Veridian]

23 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Oh, that's why you didn't upgrade until way down the line. Not because you didn't know that you could but because you didn't exactly know how it worked and didn't bother to find out.

Did you tell us not to ask "when you found out that gear was upgradable" because your argument works better when people don't know that it was actually pretty early on?

That's not the game mechanics being obscure, that's just mental laziness. You've actually wasted more time here whining about how the game didn't spoon-feed you how upgrading gear worked than it would have cost you to upgrade an item and find out.

Find out what? That god knows if I've wasted a valuable resourse on crap gear?

You can try and demean me all you want, does't change the fact that the game explains noyhing past "this is how you shoot" and "this is how you jump"

Should I give more examples? I don't know when you get a mount but the game never tells you that there is one. 

Me and a friend started together and we had similar experiences in all of this.

But I take it since you can't blindly defend D2's new player experience, it being that bad, all you're left with is pointless bashing.