What Warframe can learn from Destiny 2

[Nailclipper]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really very unique....

Maybe "unique" isn't the right term but what I mean is that everything (the whole game) has to be built around it or every aspect of the game has to support each other. Take for instance the "no wasted content" point in Destiny (2) that I mentioned, first it needs level/power scaling in order to work properly. Then for level scaling to exist the enemies encountered have to be believable, e.g. no sewer rats because they are immersion breaking for it. The type of enemies are of course tied to the main story of the game, which then defines what kind of character you play. It goes on....

In Destiny 2, the Earth (European Dead Zone) is relevant for all power levels. Supposedly we want to make Earth in Warframe also relevant for all players, can we just slap level scaling? Of course we can't because here the player's power is defined by mods.

BTW in 10 years maybe there would be a magical way using networking wizardry to make a quasi-persistent open world MMO without dedicated servers. If Warframe 2 could do it then I'm in.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Samhel:

oh and btw, who are you to state what the community wants just like that?

If @RazerXPrime joined on the same year like his forum profile then is he actually a very new player. But what should I know. I can't remember anymore if the revive button is red or white colored.

[RazerXPrime]

You don't need to play this game for five years to be attentive to see what the average warframe player likes and how the game is completely designed around that. I'm not speaking for the community and I'm not speaking for everyone at the same time. Elitism aside, you'd have to be completely ignorant not to see what the game brings and what draws people to a game like this.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb RazerXPrime:

You don't need to play this game for five years to be attentive to see what the average warframe player likes and how the game is completely designed around that. I'm not speaking for the community and I'm not speaking for everyone at the same time. Elitism aside, you'd have to be completely ignorant not to see what the game brings and what draws people to a game like this.

_{You didn't quote anyone so I will assume that you were also talking to me...}

And what do you think  happens with an average player after he spends a bit more time into the game? Right, he get better weapons, mods and his skills will also increase. In other words. An average player becomes a veteran, just like every noobs become one day an average player.

Just like you I was also a noob once and I enjoyed the destruction I could make. But just like me you will also become one day a veteran and will realise that even godlike power is boring, if there's no reason to use them. The only question is how long you will try to convince the new average players and DE, before you give up and just leave this game.

[RazerXPrime]

3 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

_{You didn't quote anyone so I will assume that you were also talking to me...}

And what do you think  happens with an average player after he spends a bit more time into the game? Right, he get better weapons, mods and his skills will also increase. In other words. An average player becomes a veteran, just like every noobs become one day an average player.

Just like you I was also a noob once and I enjoyed the destruction I could make. But just like me you will also become one day a veteran and will realise that even godlike power is boring, if there's no reason to use them. The only question is how long you will try to convince the new average players and DE, before you give up and just leave this game.

I have over 1500 hours into the game and am able to solo any type of content, so noob isn't the right term I would think. To answer your question is quite easy. If I get bored of what Warframe brought me when I have 2000 or 3000 hours into it I move to another game. That doesn't mean Warframe is bad. That means I'm done with it, at least for a while. Why is everyone who got everything out of the game and is burned out on it blaming the game itself? It makes litterally no sense whatsoever. I don't have to enjoy something till the end of time for it to be good or for it do do what it needed. Some games are amazing and you only play them once and maybe only 20 hours tops into it. Does this make them bad games? Nope.

[_Tormex_]

On 2020-10-25 at 7:14 AM, x_xGamerx_x said:

Agreed. If Nailclipper really wants difficutly, there is always the steel path, randomized loadouts, grinding sessions over 1 hours... . However the majority of the playerbase want new stuff as quick as possible.

I just wish steel path was integrated with void fissures and kuva siphons. That would make it significantly more appealing to me.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb RazerXPrime:

I have over 1500 hours into the game and am able to solo any type of content, so noob isn't the right term I would think. To answer your question is quite easy. If I get bored of what Warframe brought me when I have 2000 or 3000 hours into it I move to another game. That doesn't mean Warframe is bad. That means I'm done with it, at least for a while. Why is everyone who got everything out of the game and is burned out on it blaming the game itself? It makes litterally no sense whatsoever. I don't have to enjoy something till the end of time for it to be good or for it do do what it needed. Some games are amazing and you only play them once and maybe only 20 hours tops into it. Does this make them bad games? Nope.

Other games have a final mission, which normally require someone's best tactics and gear. Warframe hardest mission can easy be done with the starter gear and a pirate who turns into a puddle.

Btw. I didn"t say the game overall is bad. I have just a problem that there's isn't anything which require my well polarized gear.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb _Tormex_:

I just wish steel path was integrated with void fissures and kuva siphons. That would make it significantly more appealing to me.

[RazerXPrime]

2 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Other games have a final mission, which normally require someone's best tactics and gear. Warframe hardest mission can easy be done with the starter gear and a pirate who turns into a puddle.

Btw. I didn"t say the game overall is bad. I have just a problem that there's isn't anything which require my well polarized gear.

Go try the ropolalyst with only the mk1 braton without mods. I'm sure it can be done if you bring enough ammo pads.

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

Those speeder bikes need to be appropriated ASAP and weapon effects 

[ES-Flinter]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

Go try the ropolalyst with only the mk1 braton without mods. I'm sure it can be done if you bring enough ammo pads.

So you want that I ignore around 90% of the games content (Mods, Warframe powers, Arcanes, special weapon abilities) to show you that's it's possible to kill the rapopolyst with with a braton, many ammo-pizzas and a wall I can hide behind? You know that this argument speaks more for my opinion than yours. Why didn't you come up with a good argument, like "play a steelpath interception mission with a non CC frame" with this you could at least argumentate, that not everything can cheese this mission.

But if we are already in this "do this with only this"-argumentation. Show me the limits of your favourite/ strongest gear in a survival mission. The video with the ropapolyst fight will I do on friday, but like I already told. It won't help in your argumentation.

[RazerXPrime]

1 minute ago, ES-Flinter said:

So you want that I ignore around 90% of the games content (Mods, Warframe powers, Arcanes, special weapon abilities) to show you that's it's possible to kill the rapopolyst with with a braton, many ammo-pizzas and a wall I can hide behind? You know that this argument speaks more for my opinion than yours. Why didn't you come up with a good argument, like "play a steelpath interception mission with a non CC frame" with this you could at least argumentate, that not everything can cheese this mission.

But if we are already in this "do this with only this"-argumentation. Show me the limits of your favourite/ strongest gear in a survival mission. The video with the ropapolyst fight will I do on friday, but like I already told. It won't help in your argumentation.

You were looking for a reason to use your forma'd weapons. I mean sure you can complete all the games content with just the kunai and the paris bow. But you'd also go ffing crazy doing it. The game is not about things being hard or impossible. It's about making your life easier as you go through the content with the stuff you've collected. You're saying there is no content that requires your overpowered arsenal. Do you choose to disable this arsenal? I bet you do not. I understand that for some people the game may feel too easy. Especially if you've played for over 5 years and have collected everything in the game, play min max powerbuilds that oneshot everything. Sure.

This discussion is not about the game not increasing the power requirement on your end. Because the game does do that. The discussion is more on whether or not there is decent end game content that requires all the things you've collected. I'm pretty sure there isn't. Yea you can play the bullet sponge missions in steel path if you want to bore yourself to death.

however the heart of the matter is. You're of the opinion that if just one person disagrees with the statement that players enjoy this game because it's good at mowing stuff down, that you've completely invalidated my statement. But you didn't. You can have a difference of opinion on this. That doesn't change the reason why most people play this game. And I rather have DE create amazing content rather than spending their time to cater to those few that care about difficulty. I think you'll find you're hugely outnumbered.

[ES-Flinter]

This 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

You were looking for a reason to use your forma'd weapons. I mean sure you can complete all the games content with just the kunai and the paris bow. But you'd also go ffing crazy doing it.

And this: 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

The discussion is more on whether or not there is decent end game content that requires all the things you've collected. I'm pretty sure there isn't.

Are in the core the same. And that's what I think should be fixed with higher difficulty. (Steelpath is sponge mode, the enemies are to weak to hurt someone.)

vor 5 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

The game is not about things being hard or impossible. It's about making your life easier as you go through the content with the stuff you've collected. You're saying there is no content that requires your overpowered arsenal.

It think there is a misunderstanding. I don't want a spacer-looter-shooter with dark sould difficulty. I want a space-wizard-looter-shooter with the difficulty of games like Okami, Ratchet& Clank, Jak& Dexter,... . Especially Okami is a very easy game, but even at the end where the player is actually invincible it was never braindead. Not like Warframe. If I wanted to play a braindead game I would play a mobile game.

And just to go sure. I have nothing against mowing hordes of enemies down as long as it isn't completely braindead.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

Do you choose to disable this arsenal? I bet you do not.

No, because if I would take away my arsenal (mods, weapons, ...) it would also take away my unique playstyle.

• Mods are one of the chore mechanic which change someone's playstyle. Me as an example like to play a high duration full Gladiator build with Ash. But there are also other player who use an Umbra Tank build on Ash.
• I use the Mutalist Cernos as an CC and aoe damage weapon and my rattleguts (secondary) as an allrounder weapon. My melee weapon Skalli (sepfhan zaw.) is builded on very high crit and for max. charge attack efficiency. 
• My Helios increase the damage of my melee weapon and most important does he show me the weak points of the enemies which allow me to use my rattleguts on higher enemy levels.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

Yea you can play the bullet sponge missions in steel path if you want to bore yourself to death.

I played two times an one hour survival mission, but I stopped doing it because I had about 20 riven silvers maybe 5 steel-essences per run. And there's also the problem that there's no enemy who can see invisble Warframes.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

however the heart of the matter is. You're of the opinion that if just one person disagrees with the statement that players enjoy this game because it's good at mowing stuff down, that you've completely invalidated my statement. But you didn't. You can have a difference of opinion on this. That doesn't change the reason why most people play this game. And I rather have DE create amazing content rather than spending their time to cater to those few that care about difficulty. I think you'll find you're hugely outnumbered.

 Source: 

10% of the player have a problem with the lack of difficulty. 42% have a problem with the grind. And now think about it that in many games is a reduced grinding time solved with a higher difficulty. In sum can 51,5% of warframe snigger problems be solved with a bit more difficulty and thanks to this less grind. 

Still sure that I'm on the side of the minority? (Btw. think about the player who already leaved the game. The pie chart would look completely different if everyone would had been asked)

[ES-Flinter]

Anyone else who have the problem that my last post is pink? And can not be quoted. 

[RazerXPrime]

90% vs 10% I'd say you're hugely outnumbered. Although these results are skewed. You'll find that a certain player group will have a higher presence. This is the player group that has the highest MR. And to be honest although their opinion should weigh a tad higher it doesn't mean the large majority shares the sentiment. MR20+ accounts for 3% of players ever. It's an assumption, but I think I can be sure the results here include a higher percent than 3% of people of MR20+

 

I'm willing to bet that perhaps only 2-4% of the total playerbase feel that the difficulty is not high enough instead of 10% as shown above.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

90% vs 10% I'd say you're hugely outnumbered. Although these results are skewed. You'll find that a certain player group will have a higher presence. This is the player group that has the highest MR. And to be honest although their opinion should weigh a tad higher it doesn't mean the large majority shares the sentiment. MR20+ accounts for 3% of players ever. It's an assumption, but I think I can be sure the results here include a higher percent than 3% of people of MR20+

 

I'm willing to bet that perhaps only 2-4% of the total playerbase feel that the difficulty is not high enough instead of 10% as shown above.

I wouldn't be sure about that the amount of higher Mr. players (%) is higher than average. The amount of people who say that this game is too difficult is even higher than the amount of people who think that the game is to easy. (9,7% to easy| 9,8% to hard). And then there are also around 5% who have the opinion that the lack of a tutorial is the biggest problem, but here is the problem, if the 5% are just newbies, or high Mr. player who say that the lacking tutorial is the main reason why new player leave this game.

Actually I could even argumentate that this graph is skewed, because the amount of low Mr. player is much higher than it should be. ^^

Btw. Even if it would be just 3% is it still very high, because like I already told. Everyone will get there once and the amount of players could be much higher if there would be a reason to stay.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb RazerXPrime:

90% vs 10% I'd say you're hugely outnumbered.

While this is mathematically correct you can't just compare it like this. On that same way I could say that the amount of player who has a problem with to much grind are only 43% compared to the 57% who want something different. Is it now better to listen to the 57% with many different wishes or to the one group with just one wish? (Theoretical I could even say that only 10% of the players has the problem that the game is to hard, so there shouldn'tbe a problemwith increasingthe difficulty.)

That's why I only added the players who has a problem with to much grind (42%) to the players who think that this game is to easy (9,7%), because both of their problems can be solved at once. Higher difficult content for less grind. (look at the event scarlet spear. Higher enemy levels for less grind.)

 

Just to be funny. The 10% of warframe strongest players in a war against the other 90%. I would bet my platinum on the elitist, because if there's someone who knows how to fight against an enemy while being hugely outnumbered then it's them. XD

[RazerXPrime]

Well all we can safely say is these numbers are bogus. Also, I'm part of the 10% strongest and definitely not elitist.

[Loza03]

10 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

90% vs 10% I'd say you're hugely outnumbered. Although these results are skewed. You'll find that a certain player group will have a higher presence. This is the player group that has the highest MR. And to be honest although their opinion should weigh a tad higher it doesn't mean the large majority shares the sentiment. MR20+ accounts for 3% of players ever. It's an assumption, but I think I can be sure the results here include a higher percent than 3% of people of MR20+

 

I'm willing to bet that perhaps only 2-4% of the total playerbase feel that the difficulty is not high enough instead of 10% as shown above.

Bear in mind that the graph only shows what people rate as 'most negatively impacts'. It doesn't account for something players consider to be the the second most important, even. In order to get a more reliable score, we need to examine other metrics. 

This would seem to indicate that many members of the playerbase do, in fact, rate a more challenging experience highly, just not so highly as to be their number one priority.

[RazerXPrime]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Bear in mind that the graph only shows what people rate as 'most negatively impacts'. It doesn't account for something players consider to be the the second most important, even. In order to get a more reliable score, we need to examine other metrics. 

This would seem to indicate that many members of the playerbase do, in fact, rate a more challenging experience highly, just not so highly as to be their number one priority.

Many members? 28K people out of a total playerbase of 50 million. Obviously this includes all inactive players as well, but like I said, we need to have information on the people who voted to be able to see if this is a good representation of the community. I think you'll find newer players don't watch streams nor vote on stuff like this. It's an assumption, but I feel it's a good one.

[Kontrollo]

14 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Many members? 28K people out of a total playerbase of 50 million. Obviously this includes all inactive players as well, but like I said, we need to have information on the people who voted to be able to see if this is a good representation of the community. I think you'll find newer players don't watch streams nor vote on stuff like this. It's an assumption, but I feel it's a good one.

You definitely need to read up a bit on statistics, otherwise at this point, you just come across as moving the goal posts.

28k is an incredibly big sample size. Of course you can never quite rule out a bit of bias, but for us players this is as good as it gets. For comparison, Steam Charts lists around 41k players for this month.

It's definitely a fallacy to bring up inactive players or construe an argument out of not having a majority of concurrent players who participated in that survey.

[RazerXPrime]

Doesn't matter. Without knowing who voted there's no way to see the actual value of the votes.

[PhiThagRaid]

2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

wouldn't be sure about that the amount of higher Mr. players (%) is higher than average. The amount of people who say that this game is too difficult is even higher than the amount of people who think that the game is to easy. (9,7% to easy| 9,8% to hard). And then there are also around 5% who have the opinion that the lack of a tutorial is the biggest problem, but here is the problem, if the 5% are just newbies, or high Mr. player who say that the lacking tutorial is the main reason why new player leave this game.

Actually I could even argumentate that this graph is skewed, because the amount of low Mr. player is much higher than it should be. ^^

Btw. Even if it would be just 3% is it still very high, because like I already told. Everyone will get there once and the amount of players could be much higher if there would be a reason to stay.

11 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

90% vs 10% I'd say you're hugely outnumbered.

While this is mathematically correct you can't just compare it like this. On that same way I could say that the amount of player who has a problem with to much grind are only 43% compared to the 57% who want something different. Is it now better to listen to the 57% with many different wishes or to the one group with just one wish? (Theoretical I could even say that only 10% of the players has the problem that the game is to hard, so there shouldn'tbe a problemwith increasingthe difficulty.)

I'd just like to point out that you misread the chart, 9.7% is indeed stating that it is too easy, but only 1-2% are stating that it's too hard. The 9.8% is actually the complaints about slow update cycle.

Simple mistake given the dark and light blue being used.

[PhiThagRaid]

11 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Doesn't matter. Without knowing who voted there's no way to see the actual value of the votes.

How much does this really matter? If what Kontrollo states is true that 41k is the monthly concurrent player count, then 28k is indeed a good sample. Even if there is a sampling bias towards those who are more active, is that not a good thing? The goal of such a survey is to determine what players want, if those who are more active seem to indicate that they want more difficult content, arguing against that would be favouring those who have less interest in the game over those who have more interest.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb PhiThagRaid:

I'd just like to point out that you misread the chart, 9.7% is indeed stating that it is too easy, but only 1-2% are stating that it's too hard. The 9.8% is actually the complaints about slow update cycle.

Simple mistake given the dark and light blue being used.

Ups. Thanks you for the information. Maybe I should next time drink my chocolate (I hate coffe) at first, before I start writing. ^^

[ES-Flinter]

vor 56 Minuten schrieb RazerXPrime:

Well all we can safely say is these numbers are bogus. Also, I'm part of the 10% strongest and definitely not elitist.

Can you proof it? I know that I'm strong, but what I learned in live is to never underestimate someone you don't know.

sorry, for double post.