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Suggestions for fixing Limbo's issues, plus a rework idea.


Perfectly_Framed_Waifu

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If you ask me, Limbo is one of the most interesting frames in the game. His dimension abilities is one of the major reasons why I started playing Warframe. However, it has become apparent that Limbo has a number of issues - both for other players and for the devs. In this post, I list those issues, then some possible fixes for them, plus a rework idea that I believe would tie it all together nicely.

The Issues
Players with a Limbo as a squad member come across the following issues:

  • Players can be, and are all too often, pulled into the Rift against their will. In the case of Cataclysm, you can't even roll out of the Rift.
  • Players cannot interact with most objects while in the rift - most notable is the inability to hack.
  • Players cannot enter the Rift without the help of Limbo, which is a frequent problem because:
  • Limbo's high range of influence frequently leaves Rifted enemies far away from where Limbo is fighting.
  • Further complicating the above is that Stasis frequently leaves enemies frozen in faraway corners of the map.

The Devs, and as consequence the Limbo players, have the following issues:

  • Stasis is too strong of a CC ability. The devs have on a number of occasions countered this by making enemies immune to Stasis or the Rift. This makes it so Stasis either trivializes a fight, or does nothing. The exceptions for this are quite scarce.
  • When Stasis doesn't work, Limbo's usability is more than halved, as his kit is essentially one CC and three ways to set up for said CC.

In summary, Limbo's party members have too little control of what dimension they are in, Limbo frequently affects far more enemies than he is fighting, and Stasis varies between being too strong and doing nothing.

The Solutions
All of these suggestions are part of the rework idea below, but also work as standalone solutions.

First off, minimize Limbo's ability to pull allies into the Rift while maximizing the allies' ability to enter the Rift by their own choice.

  • Banish no longer affects allied Warframes.
  • The portal left behind by Limbo's dash needs to be rolled through to enter.
  • Allies can interact with Rifted enemies in some way to go into the Rift. For example, by "activating" them, rolling into them, bullet jumping into them, or striking them with melee.
  • Limbo and allies can interact with objects outside of the Rift (hacking consoles, capture targets, etc), but are expelled from the Rift in the process.
  • Change Cataclysm from a Rift zone to a damage/CC zone that only affects enemies in the Rift. See the rework idea below for more info.

Secondly, reduce Limbo's range of influence to only affect the enemies he's currently fighting.

  • The Cataclysm change above also deals with this for the most part, as does the Stasis change further down.
  • Remove the ability to trigger Rift Surge from Banish's hold-to-cancel, as this can currently trigger a semi-Cataclysm by alternating between Rift Surge and cancel.
    Currently, if there are Rift Surged enemies, Limbo needs to cancel Banish twice to get all enemies out of the Rift.

Finally, nerf Stasis.

  • Remove Stasis' freeze. Make affected enemies deal ~30% reduced damage.  Whenever they take damage, their speed is slowed by 5%, stacking up to 100%.
    This damage reduction and max slow can then be reduced for specific enemies, allowing for fine-tuning of difficulty rather than the current all-or-nothing.
    This also prevents enemies that aren't being fought from being frozen, effectively reducing Limbo's range of influence.

The Rework

Building on the changes proposed above, this is a relatively small rework idea that focuses on broadening Limbo's toolkit, increasing his teamwork potential, and generally just making him even more of a swanky dimension magician.

Passive: Rift Plane
Same as the current one, plus the solutions above.

1: Banish
Works as the current Banish, but no longer banishes allied Warframes and their companions. However, it is no longer Limbo's Helminth ability due to allies being able to access the Rift plane through banished enemies.

(Note: Since this Banish can no longer heal allied Warframes, one could change its current augment to a Passive augment instead, that provides a weak health regen for XX seconds after Limbo or an ally enters the Rift by any means.)

This ability is good as is - it perfectly fills its purpose as a tool for instantly bringing specific enemies in and out of the Rift plane.

2: Rift Shadow - new ability
Project a threatening shadow of the Rift plane onto the material plane at the target location for 8 seconds, compelling nearby enemies into attacking it. Enemies in the Rift plane deal severely reduced damage to it. When it dies or the duration runs out, it explodes and performs a radial banish that sends enemies from the material plane to the Rift plane (but not the other way around). It does not banish allies, but leaves behind a portal on death that's the same as when Limbo slides into the Rift with his passive.

Rift Shadow serves both as a distraction tool on both planes, and as a way of bringing enemies into the Rift without having to leave it. Coupled with his reworked 3, it's can be a deceptively tanky distraction.

3. Rift Surge
Surges nearby enemies on both the material and Rift plane. Surged enemies deal ~30% reduced damage (affected by Strength) and spread the Surge to all nearby enemies on both planes when they die. Surged enemies on the material plane perform a radial banish when they enter the Rift, which can set off a chain reaction. Surged enemies on the Rift plane have their speed slowed by 5% (affected by Strength) whenever they take damage, stacking up to a maximum of 100% - this slow is quickly lost if they leave the Rift. A surged enemy on the Rift plane only performs a radial banish when expelled by Banish's click-to-cast, not by the hold-to-cast or as a result of any banish duration ending. The surge is not discharged from an enemy when they enter or leave the Rift, rather persists for the full duration.

With these changes, this ability is my suggestion for Limbo's new Helminth subsume, as it offers a spreading damage reduction that could come in handy on a lot of frames.

This ability fills two purposes. First off, it extends the effective range of Limbo's other banishes, but as a trade-off he has to actively banish targets. Secondly, it's fills the role of Stasis as a CC tool that provides safety. On one hand, it now helps allies on the material plane as well. On the other, it is limited by range rather than affecting the whole Rift, and the slow has to be built up by fighting enemies rather than instantly getting that full freeze. This should create a more active playstyle than the current one.

4. Cataclysm
"Now it's becoming clear. Could it be that there's a plane between our normal plane and the void? A space between space, a rift? A rift that this Limbo could control?" - Ordis, during The Limbo Theorem

According to the Lore, the Rift is a plane between the material and the Void. So, if Limbo can open a portal between the material plane and the Rift, he should theoretically be able to open one between Rift and Void as well. That is what I've based this ability's rework on - the dimensional equivalent of opening the airlock. (In short, think "current Cataclysm, but Rift-Void instead of material-Rift".)

Limbo tears open a spherical gate between the Rift plane and the Void with an initial radius of 10 meters (6m smaller than the current one), lasting for 15 seconds. Enemies in the material plane are completely unaffected (and the sphere is invisible to players in the material plane), while enemies in the Rift plane that wander into it are unable to leave, and are dragged along with it as it shrinks. The sphere deals medium-high damage over time, stacking up the slow on Rift Surged enemies. At the end of its duration, the sphere collapses and deals heavy damage to all enemies still inside, based on their max health and shields. An enemy prematurely forced out of the sphere (by, for example, being unable to get dragged along by the sphere due to objects in the way) is dealt damage as if the sphere had collapsed.

Synergy: By letting a Rift Shadow explode inside the sphere, Limbo connects the material plane to the Void via the Rift, causing Cataclysm to also trap and damage enemies inside it in the material plane, as well as leaving them susceptible to Rift Surge's slow.

With other options for putting multiple enemies into the Rift, Cataclysm no longer needs to fill that role. This also means that there's no longer a large zone that forces players to be in the Rift, alleviating that issue. Instead, Cataclysm becomes a damage ability that also provides zoning and helps stack Rift Surge's slow. Its synergy with Rift Shadow also gives Limbo a combat tool for the material plane, something I imagine his allies will appreciate.

Conclusion
It's 1AM and I don't know what to write here, so I'm just gonna say thank you for taking your time to read this. Please leave a comment if you have any thoughts or critique 🙂

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It's a more active playstyle that I would like to try for sure. Limbo as the frame that turns any mission into Simulacrum target practice has made games feel sedimentary, albeit hilarious power trips when used.

For Rift Shadow, would adding a component that reflects some damage onto the enemies who attack it work well with new Rift Surge's slow stacking? As I understand it, material-bound enemies deal 70% damage at 100% AS to the shadow while rift-bound enemies deal even less, so the distraction hopefully can last through its short lifespan.

Also is it initially invulnerable? Can I cast Banish on it to protect it from material-bound attacks by making it fully in the Rift?

Banish no longer working on allies Warframes and Companions, okay, but what about allied AI? Like Sortie Defense Operatives?

Does Cataclysm still interact with allies and static objects? 

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10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:
  • Allies can interact with Rifted enemies in some way to go into the Rift. For example, by "activating" them, rolling into them, bullet jumping into them, or striking them with melee.
  • Limbo and allies can interact with objects outside of the Rift (hacking consoles, capture targets, etc), but are expelled from the Rift in the process.

This sounds pretty good and reasonable. I've never been on board with just letting players just interact cross-rift totally freely (given the sheer amount of invulnerability that can create) so I feel like a solution like this is the best compromise.

The only addition I can make is to add a few more rift effects - static ones, such as a buff icon and perhaps a crosshair indicator - and allow the current rift effects to be disabled in the options. This kills two birds - it can be difficult to tell which plane you're in at times, depending on light condition, and I've heard the current effects give some people headaches. I'd also alter enemy rift effects to make it clearer that they're not on the same plane as you (it's very hard to identify right now).

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

(Note: Since this Banish can no longer heal allied Warframes, one could change its current augment to a Passive augment instead, that provides a weak health regen for XX seconds after Limbo or an ally enters the Rift by any means.)

I'd be good for that. It might need a small cooldown since players can enter the rift for free (especially Limbo himself) though, or perhaps something else thematic. Maybe something similar to rolling guard? 'Delayed Phase' Limbo de-synchs his shift between planes, granting himself and other frames in the squad damage resistance for a short time after a rift-walk. This starts at 100% and immediately begins falling over a couple seconds, but doesn't have a cooldown. Basically, a weaker Rolling Guard that doesn't have a cooldown.

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

2: Rift Shadow - new ability
Project a threatening shadow of the Rift plane onto the material plane at the target location for 8 seconds, compelling nearby enemies into attacking it. Enemies in the Rift plane deal severely reduced damage to it. When it dies or the duration runs out, it explodes and performs a radial banish that sends enemies from the material plane to the Rift plane (but not the other way around). It does not banish allies, but leaves behind a portal on death that's the same as when Limbo slides into the Rift with his passive.

Rift Shadow serves both as a distraction tool on both planes, and as a way of bringing enemies into the Rift without having to leave it. Coupled with his reworked 3, it's can be a deceptively tanky distraction.

Axing stasis would surely be a controversial move, but I've removed it on my own 'short duration' build so I'm not particularly opposed to it.

I'm not really sure about it being a destructible though. Even with reduced damage from the rift, these don't usually last all that long in higher level content, and since the duration is fairly short already and the fact it doesn't seem to be a very powerful ability overall, I'm not really sure it's a necessary drawback. I'd personally drop that facet and let Limbo manually detonate it instead as well as it's duration, allowing it to serve more as a 'time bomb' that subtly attracts enemies to its location or disrupts their movements before dropping them into the rift, as well as giving Limbo the ability to drop a more permanent gateway on demand, since there are situations that'd be desirable to have before enemies are encountered (such as with a Mesa or Excal in the party). Visually speaking, I'd also give the shadow a field around it, signifying the 'shadow' as well as the area of the banish.

As a potential augment suggestion, how about this:

"Shadow step" Whilst within a certain distance of the shadow, Limbo's own ties to the planes become distorted. Enemies have trouble tracking his movements (in effect, a reduced detection range) and heavy attacks teleport Limbo to his target - similar to the 'Rift Step' augment for the Twin Basolk. I'm not sure how useful this would be, but this seems like a fun 'flavour' augment.

10 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

3. Rift Surge
Surges nearby enemies on both the material and Rift plane. Surged enemies deal ~30% reduced damage (affected by Strength) and spread the Surge to all nearby enemies on both planes when they die. Surged enemies on the material plane perform a radial banish when they enter the Rift, which can set off a chain reaction. Surged enemies on the Rift plane have their speed slowed by 5% (affected by Strength) whenever they take damage, stacking up to a maximum of 100% - this slow is quickly lost if they leave the Rift. A surged enemy on the Rift plane only performs a radial banish when expelled by Banish's click-to-cast, not by the hold-to-cast or as a result of any banish duration ending. The surge is not discharged from an enemy when they enter or leave the Rift, rather persists for the full duration.

With these changes, this ability is my suggestion for Limbo's new Helminth subsume, as it offers a spreading damage reduction that could come in handy on a lot of frames.

This ability fills two purposes. First off, it extends the effective range of Limbo's other banishes, but as a trade-off he has to actively banish targets. Secondly, it's fills the role of Stasis as a CC tool that provides safety. On one hand, it now helps allies on the material plane as well. On the other, it is limited by range rather than affecting the whole Rift, and the slow has to be built up by fighting enemies rather than instantly getting that full freeze. This should create a more active playstyle than the current one.

This is quite the buff from the base version. Would this keep Rift Torrent as-is (since that can be quite the powerhouse in and of itself)?

Still, moving the CC from Stasis to this and make it both interactive and actually affected by all the stats is a good move IMO. Plus it keeps and even buffs low-duration Limbo, which I'm happy about, that's one of my favourite playstyles.

11 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

4. Cataclysm
"Now it's becoming clear. Could it be that there's a plane between our normal plane and the void? A space between space, a rift? A rift that this Limbo could control?" - Ordis, during The Limbo Theorem

According to the Lore, the Rift is a plane between the material and the Void. So, if Limbo can open a portal between the material plane and the Rift, he should theoretically be able to open one between Rift and Void as well. That is what I've based this ability's rework on - the dimensional equivalent of opening the airlock. (In short, think "current Cataclysm, but Rift-Void instead of material-Rift".)

Limbo tears open a spherical gate between the Rift plane and the Void with an initial radius of 10 meters (6m smaller than the current one), lasting for 15 seconds. Enemies in the material plane are completely unaffected (and the sphere is invisible to players in the material plane), while enemies in the Rift plane that wander into it are unable to leave, and are dragged along with it as it shrinks. The sphere deals medium-high damage over time, stacking up the slow on Rift Surged enemies. At the end of its duration, the sphere collapses and deals heavy damage to all enemies still inside, based on their max health and shields. An enemy prematurely forced out of the sphere (by, for example, being unable to get dragged along by the sphere due to objects in the way) is dealt damage as if the sphere had collapsed.

Synergy: By letting a Rift Shadow explode inside the sphere, Limbo connects the material plane to the Void via the Rift, causing Cataclysm to also trap and damage enemies inside it in the material plane, as well as leaving them susceptible to Rift Surge's slow.

With other options for putting multiple enemies into the Rift, Cataclysm no longer needs to fill that role. This also means that there's no longer a large zone that forces players to be in the Rift, alleviating that issue. Instead, Cataclysm becomes a damage ability that also provides zoning and helps stack Rift Surge's slow. Its synergy with Rift Shadow also gives Limbo a combat tool for the material plane, something I imagine his allies will appreciate.

This is quite the interesting change, and I think I like it. It's definitely different to Limbo's current offerings.

However, I do have to agree with @PsiWarp that I'm a tad concerned about Limbo's potential defensive offerings. This has traditionally been one of his strongest suits, and whilst he was too strong for too little reward before, it does appear that there's no discernible potential for defensive play in this toolkit. Perhaps some following additions?

Enemies that attempt to fire into the Cataclysm will find their fire wildly distorted, decreasing accuracy (projectiles can sometimes even visibly veer off course towards the center of the cataclysm and become consumed by the void) and reduced damage if it does meet its mark. This is further benefited by the Augment, Cataclysmic Continuum. 'Stablises the Cataclysm, allowing it to exist for longer (25-30 seconds, similar to now?) but disabling the explosion and reducing damage'. This seems like a good fit for an augment, as it's the same base ability but with changes that give it a different role, whilst not invalidating this suggestion's primary role for the power. It requires maintainance because Rift Shadow still needs to be applied for it to take effect in the material plane. Perhaps in a similar spirit to the current playstyle, using Rift Shadow's synergy increases its uptime to 10-12 seconds? So, when using it for defence with this, you need a little more upkeep than now, but it provides a good alternative that maintains one of Limbo's classic roles.

 

Overall, I like this rework suggestion, despite my criticisms. It seems a great deal more engaging and friendly than Limbo's present setup, whilst still keeping his theme and what makes him unique.

I reckon I'd be happy if this got in game, personally.

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@PsiWarp, @Loza03, those are all great points that you've brought up - thanks for that! Going over the critique for all abilities in order.

Passive and the Rift in general
I definitely agree that adding some indication to the UI for when you are in the Rift would be a good idea, be it around the crosshair or perhaps the border of the screen, as it is a bit subtle at times plus that some players don't like the Rift distortion. Adding a more clear effect to enemies would also be very much appreciated.

As for the passive heal-over-time augment, I believe that making it heal over time would in practice put a cooldown on it compared to the current Banish augment, as it would take a X amount of time to gain the health you previously gained instantly from Banish. Also, seeing how much Rolling Guard synergizes with the Rift, having something similar as an augment for Limbo would be a great idea. Crazy thought: We got augments that go into the normal and exilus slots - why not make that team-wide Rolling Guard augment go into the aura slot? I'm not sure about that one myself, but it's a quirky idea I had to share.

Banish
Banish would Rift things just as it does currently, with the exception of Warframes and their companions/summons/specters/etc. Neutral being like Sortie Defense Operatives would still be affected by Banish, while Excavators and such would not, as is currently the case. I'll go over that further when it comes to Cataclysm.

Rift Shadow
I thought about whether or not I wanted to add some damage-over-time of any kind to this ability to stack Rift Surge's slow, and I'm undecided. It'd be a great synergy, no doubt about it, I'm just not sure whether or not that would be healthy for the active playstyle of his kit. A better game designer than me will have to decide that one. Perhaps one could make it refract damage taken in one plane onto enemies in the other, or something, to encourage tactical placement where there's enemies in both planes?

But yeah, Surged enemies in the material plane would deal 70% damage to it (at 100% Strength), while Rifted enemies would deal less when slowed. Still, I can certainly see that it'd still be squishy on higher levels, and even though it's meant to be a low-duration ability, I think that giving it the Iron Skin effect of absorbing damage to increase its health when spawned would be a good idea. Alternatively, one could just make it invulnerable, though there's a chance that that might be too strong for a high-threat object. (Looking at you, Octavia.)

Giving it a visible area for what will be banished would be great! As for a synergy with Banish, it sounds like a great idea, though I'm unsure how practical it would be as Banish could potentially hit enemies in the process? That's something that would have to be determined in testing - but I definitely like the idea.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

As a potential augment suggestion, how about this:

"Shadow step" Whilst within a certain distance of the shadow, Limbo's own ties to the planes become distorted. Enemies have trouble tracking his movements (in effect, a reduced detection range) and heavy attacks teleport Limbo to his target - similar to the 'Rift Step' augment for the Twin Basolk. I'm not sure how useful this would be, but this seems like a fun 'flavour' augment.

Sounds like an interesting augment! One I've pondered but which I'm unsure if I like is one that makes the Shadow leave behind a zone that auto-banishes anything that steps inside. I feel like it'd go against my rework's design principle of making banishing something Limbo himself actively needs to do, rather than just by enemies being in the right place.

Rift Surge/Rift Torrent
As the augment currently works, this would be a huge buff to it, yeah. I think that making it so that you only get the damage bonus from Surged enemies in the Rift, rather than all of them, would mostly balance out the mod - because while Rift Surge spreads more easily, it is harder to bring large, wide-spread groups into the Rift in this rework. At least that's my intention. One could also tweak the mod by lowering the amount of extra damage per enemy, or make it give a damage bonus for a while based on how many enemies are hit by the initial Rift Surge cast.

Cataclysm
Somehow, I managed to overlook Limbo's ability to banish objects like Excavators, Cryopods, and Mobile Defense consoles while writing this rework. As it is currently written, this rework would have no means of protecting these besides Rifting any enemy that comes near, and this is not a change I'd like to see - both because it's a heavy nerf to Limbo's defense capabilities, and because it encourages Limbo to banish everything which is something I imagine would infuriate a lot of squad members.

I like the idea in the post above for a solution to this. When connected to the material plane via a Rift Shadow explosion, it could protect defense objectives, and giving allies and objectives within an evasion and damage resistance buff would be a decent and fitting defensive boost, yet not strong enough that it would trivialize missions on its own. Having the ability's augment lower its offense in favor of defense would also be a fitting move, giving you an option for just how you want to play Limbo.

(A key thing to remember here is also that you could fire at enemies outside from within Cataclysm, and vice versa, so it wouldn't be infuriating teammates.)

 

Thank you both very much for this critique - it really helps with ironing out the things I've missed, be they small details or massive oversights that could break an entire rework ^^

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As a Limbo player and someone who is also interested in Limbo for quite some time, I don't particularly agree with some posts mentioned here.

 

I will re-emphasise below:

 

Issues that I find with Limbo and agree with you about:

  • Limbo and Allies (unless it's Exalted/Casters), do not work well. Limbo is unable to use Rift Surge due to Allies not being able to attack enemies outside of the rift. This is an issue as it slows down DPS and overall enjoyability of the game.
    • Your solution to this is long and tedious to do, and it can doesn't always solve the problem (unless I am misunderstanding ofc), I think allies should either.
      • Instantly get put into the plane that matches the enemy. For instance you are a Ember, and you attack an enemy in the rift, you will be pulled into the rift for X amount of time, if you then attack an enemy in the material plane you instantly get put back into the material plane.
        • This therefore solves the issue where allies and Limbo are unable to work together without much need for a kit rework.
  • I agree that Hacking consoles and other terminals is annoying with Limbo in the rift, especially since it's his main source of survivability in his current state and I agree with the change being able to use the console but you are pulled out of the rift. Fair change.

 

However, I do not agree that Statis is too strong. Especially since it's his main source of survivability. There are plenty of enemies who 1: Ignore the rift and 2: Can collapse the rift as a whole, for example Nullifiers and Arbitration Drones (and effected enemies). This balances the statis out in my opinion as it relies on the Limbo player to be able to realise an enemy has entered his rift, and he has to be able to kill them before being killed as Statis is his way of surviving without Damage Reduction [DR] or Damage Evasion [DE].

Your rework to Limbo is making his 2 act like every other DR ability which is kind of boring to me, and does not make Limbo stand out as a whole. I get the concept and it would make Limbo more interactive, but overall, DR is not reliable especially since how you want it to work is a 5% slowdown increase per shot [i'm guessing]. This means you would have to tank 20 shots which can be difficult in harder level missions, therefore making Limbo a lot worse. 30% DR aswell is nothing in comparison to the game, and buffing this number won't do much either as then it's literally like every other DR ability.

 

Overall, I can't remember what else you said but these are the points that stick out to me, and what I would do instead. Personally, my main issue with Limbo is his team-playability more then his Kit as of right now, as I enjoy his kit. (other then his 1).

In response to @Perfectly_Framed_Waifu

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I only agree with Banish not affecting Warframes and Tenno, as it should still affect allied NPCs and only the user's allies like the Limbos own pets.

I agree with making it easier for team mates to not accidentally enter the rift, to reduce trolling or just confusing people unaware of Limbos mechanics.

But there's no reason to take it upon yourself to decide that you personally think Limbo's kit should be completely changed. That's your opinion and you don't need to force it on others. 

We shouldn't be changing a frame completely just because the occasional new person doesn't know what they're doing. That's a player issue and not a Limbo issue. 

I agree with making Banish not affect allied Tenno/Warframes and making it so allied Tenno/Warframes have to roll to enter Limbos portals so thry can't just "walk into it".

I personally don't think it's an issue for a knowledgeable player to simply roll out of the rift, but if we're assuming most people aren't aware of this, then sure, make it easier for them. 

I don't agree with the rest, and I don't think Limbo needs a rework at all. 

Limbo is weak and fragile which is why he controls the rift the way he does, I guess similar to Jean Grey or Professor X being physically weak but mentally incredibly powerful: You can kill Limbo in 1 hit, but that's if you can even touch him. His whole thing is popping in and out of the rift to manipulate the battlefield and keep enemies at bay, because if he doesn't...he's dead. 

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Thanks for the feedback,  @-LOF-.XinesMC!

Having allies transition immediately upon hitting an enemy would definitely solve that problem nicely, though I somehow feel that that would in a way trivialize the Rift concept? That's probably just me being silly and too stuck in how things currently work though. This issue with the Rift is tackled in a few other ways throughout this rework idea, mainly by giving more options for getting into the Rift and by limiting Limbo's ability to banish enemies to just the groups he's actively fighting. If this rework was to work in practice as I hope, you wouldn't find frozen and rifted enemies strewn across the map.

One of my problems with Stasis is the counterplays for it that you stated - either Stasis works and completely shuts down the Rift, or it does nothing against certain enemies, with no middle ground between these two extremes. That's where the idea of a Stasis/Rift Surge that instead reduces damage and slows comes from, as this would give you more survivability against some targets that currently ignore Stasis outright, plus the extra survivability granted from the taunting Shadow and Limbo's focus on just bringing in the enemies he intend to fight.

16 minutes ago, -LOF-.XinesMC said:

This means you would have to tank 20 shots

You misunderstood me here, though. Enemies are slowed when they take damage, not when you take damage. 20 ticks of damage would freeze an enemy, or less with increased Strength. Even at base Strength, Limbo could quickly freeze enemies using beam weapons, shotguns, bullet hoses, DoT statuses, Vulpaphyla spores and so on.

Thank you @(PS4)Madurai-Prime for your feedback as well!

I'm happy that you agree with the QoL improvements for Limbo, at least. I wouldn't call what I've written to be forcing my opinion on others, though. Rather, I've offered an opinion and I'm looking to see what others think about it. Had I wanted to force this opinion, I would've e-mailed it to DE directly since I wouldn't have cared about other players seeing it, and thus not posted it on this forum.

I don't know if you're including me under the "new person" umbrella, but with me being at max MR, having over 3k hours in this game, and with Limbo being one of my most played frames, I can't say I feel I belong there. I wouldn't ignore the opinions of a newcomer just because they're new in either case, though.

Despite our differing opinions, your assessment of Limbo nicely encapsulates why I believe he needs a rework. He dies in one hit (or two nowadays, because shield gating) when the Rift and Stasis is not protecting him, but his CC is absurdly powerful when it works. And the gradient between these two extremes shines with its absence. Not to mention that his current kit is essentially one CC and three ways of activating it.

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4 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Having allies transition immediately upon hitting an enemy would definitely solve that problem nicely, though I somehow feel that that would in a way trivialize the Rift concept? That's probably just me being silly and too stuck in how things currently work though. This issue with the Rift is tackled in a few other ways throughout this rework idea, mainly by giving more options for getting into the Rift and by limiting Limbo's ability to banish enemies to just the groups he's actively fighting. If this rework was to work in practice as I hope, you wouldn't find frozen and rifted enemies strewn across the map.

I wouldn't think this trivilizes the rift as Limbo himself would still have to be some what skilled to be able to work in synergy with the rift. However this change would allow the allies to not get affected by people who don't know how to play Limbo whilst also benefiting those who can.

5 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

ne of my problems with Stasis is the counterplays for it that you stated - either Stasis works and completely shuts down the Rift,

I actually like it like this, because it tests how reactive you are to changes within the Rift, and shows it's "unstable" aspect which shown in the Lore. Because you are able to visuaully see when the rift collapses, it would test how quick you could A: Cast an ability, B: Get into the rift yourself [by shift] or C: Tenno/Get away.

6 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You misunderstood me here, though. Enemies are slowed when they take damage, not when you take damage. 20 ticks of damage would freeze an enemy, or less with increased Strength. Even at base Strength, Limbo could quickly freeze enemies using beam weapons, shotguns, bullet hoses, DoT statuses, Vulpaphyla spores and so on.

Sorry, thank you for clearing this up, this would be a fine change to Statis, but it would be kind of hard to pull off, since enemies coming from all directions means that only SOME get frozen. This means Limbo would constantly be having to watch his back instead of enjoying the game, and this seems like a Micro-managey way of solving Statis rather than a fun way. May be my opinion.

I overall think QOL changes are needed for Limbo rather than a full rework, and statis is fine how it is. But I might be bias /shrug. Thanks anyways! :D

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4 minutes ago, -LOF-.XinesMC said:

I actually like it like this, because it tests how reactive you are to changes within the Rift, and shows it's "unstable" aspect which shown in the Lore. Because you are able to visuaully see when the rift collapses, it would test how quick you could A: Cast an ability, B: Get into the rift yourself [by shift] or C: Tenno/Get away.

The thing is though that this seems to force DE to release enemies and stuff that are immune to Stasis, because Stasis is such an extreme - either you're a God or it does nothing. I believe it'd be healthier for the game if the freeze worked on a gradient, not to mention if it didn't freeze random enemies across the map.

8 minutes ago, -LOF-.XinesMC said:

but it would be kind of hard to pull off, since enemies coming from all directions means that only SOME get frozen. This means Limbo would constantly be having to watch his back instead of enjoying the game, and this seems like a Micro-managey way of solving Statis rather than a fun way. May be my opinion.

Well, part of the purpose with this rework is reducing the amount of enemies in the Rift to just the ones Limbo's actively engaging, giving him more control and giving squad mates less headache over random rifted foes. If there ever was an enemy coming from an unforeseen direction, it'd be because you messed up with your banishing. Having banished enemies be a different color on the minimap would be good though, both in this rework and with Limbo as he currently is.!

But yeah, QoL changes are definitely needed. I appreciate you sharing your opinions and doing so with friendliness ^^

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9 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Thanks for the feedback,  @-LOF-.XinesMC!

Having allies transition immediately upon hitting an enemy would definitely solve that problem nicely, though I somehow feel that that would in a way trivialize the Rift concept? That's probably just me being silly and too stuck in how things currently work though. This issue with the Rift is tackled in a few other ways throughout this rework idea, mainly by giving more options for getting into the Rift and by limiting Limbo's ability to banish enemies to just the groups he's actively fighting. If this rework was to work in practice as I hope, you wouldn't find frozen and rifted enemies strewn across the map.

One of my problems with Stasis is the counterplays for it that you stated - either Stasis works and completely shuts down the Rift, or it does nothing against certain enemies, with no middle ground between these two extremes. That's where the idea of a Stasis/Rift Surge that instead reduces damage and slows comes from, as this would give you more survivability against some targets that currently ignore Stasis outright, plus the extra survivability granted from the taunting Shadow and Limbo's focus on just bringing in the enemies he intend to fight.

You misunderstood me here, though. Enemies are slowed when they take damage, not when you take damage. 20 ticks of damage would freeze an enemy, or less with increased Strength. Even at base Strength, Limbo could quickly freeze enemies using beam weapons, shotguns, bullet hoses, DoT statuses, Vulpaphyla spores and so on.

Thank you @(PS4)Madurai-Prime for your feedback as well!

I'm happy that you agree with the QoL improvements for Limbo, at least. I wouldn't call what I've written to be forcing my opinion on others, though. Rather, I've offered an opinion and I'm looking to see what others think about it. Had I wanted to force this opinion, I would've e-mailed it to DE directly since I wouldn't have cared about other players seeing it, and thus not posted it on this forum.

I don't know if you're including me under the "new person" umbrella, but with me being at max MR, having over 3k hours in this game, and with Limbo being one of my most played frames, I can't say I feel I belong there. I wouldn't ignore the opinions of a newcomer just because they're new in either case, though.

Despite our differing opinions, your assessment of Limbo nicely encapsulates why I believe he needs a rework. He dies in one hit (or two nowadays, because shield gating) when the Rift and Stasis is not protecting him, but his CC is absurdly powerful when it works. And the gradient between these two extremes shines with its absence. Not to mention that his current kit is essentially one CC and three ways of activating it.

His kit isn't "essentially one CC". His kit is the ability to manipulate the Rift Plane. 

"The Rift plane is an alternate dimension to the normal environment, or material plane, where most Warframe gameplay takes place."

He's literally traversing between different dimensions and manipulating the fabric of space and time. 

Just like here in earth: we're all in the same dimension and can't access other dimensions even though we know they theoretically exist. The universe is just there, and we're a part of 1 aspect of it. Limbo has discovered a way to access the other side or other part of the existing universe. 

You don't nerf Dr. Strange just because he knows Magic and can do things other superheroes can't: you utilize him and his strengths for the the fight against evil. Yea, I'm sure Dr. Strange would love a buncha muscles, physical strength, and cool claws in his skeleton with advanced cellular healing, but that's not his power. His power is magic. 

I'm sure Limbo would love to have 700 base armor or 8k health, but that's not his thing. His thing is seamlessly weaving in and out of the Rift Plane. 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

His kit isn't "essentially one CC". His kit is the ability to manipulate the Rift Plane. 

His kit is the ability to manipulate the Rift Plane in exactly one way: freezing enemies inside it. Besides that, his entire kit consists of ways to get stuff into and out of the rift. To summarize:

32 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

his current kit is essentially one CC and three ways of activating it.

I didn't suggest giving Dr. Strange muscles or claws or anything. I suggested giving Dr. Strange more magic, and changing Stasis to not be all-or-nothing, because DE keeps having to make stuff that Limbo doesn't immediately trivialize. Even Dr. Strange has to actively fight sometimes, and he does so with more than one spell.

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13 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

His kit is the ability to manipulate the Rift Plane in exactly one way: freezing enemies inside it. Besides that, his entire kit consists of ways to get stuff into and out of the rift. To summarize:

I didn't suggest giving Dr. Strange muscles or claws or anything. I suggested giving Dr. Strange more magic, and changing Stasis to not be all-or-nothing, because DE keeps having to make stuff that Limbo doesn't immediately trivialize. Even Dr. Strange has to actively fight sometimes, and he does so with more than one spell.

Except your "more magic" is letting Limbo get killed by ranged enemies just because you don't want stuff frozen anymore and want to change his sphere of influence. 

If you want to change his influence, you should be against all spheres of influence and provide feedback against nerfing all range mods instead of picking 1 frame to decide shouldn't be doing something you don't like anymore because you decided to play it for a long time and want to change it up just because.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Except your "more magic" is letting Limbo get killed by ranged enemies just because you don't want stuff frozen anymore and want to change his sphere of influence. 

You just managed to describe why he won't get killed by ranged enemies, though you're a tad wrong about me not wanting stuff frozen anymore. I don't want stuff frozen on the other side of the map. Limbo's problems go far beyond his sphere of influence though - Range mods are not the problem here. A hint at what's the problem is DE continuously adding stuff to the game that isn't affected by Stasis.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Except your "more magic" is letting Limbo get killed by ranged enemies just because you don't want stuff frozen anymore and want to change his sphere of influence. 

If you want to change his influence, you should be against all spheres of influence and provide feedback against nerfing all range mods instead of picking 1 frame to decide shouldn't be doing something you don't like anymore because you decided to play it for a long time and want to change it up just because.

Limbo's got an exception other frames with sphere's of influence don't - complete immunity to everything unaffected by it. Simply put, everything affected by stasis is no threat, everything unaffected by stasis is no threat. Compare to Frost, where enemies that enter can threaten him, or Khora, where enemies outside can hurt her. They might be less able - distracted by those hanging in the web, or slowed, but they're still able. Limbo does not have that drawback. 

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51 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You just managed to describe why he won't get killed by ranged enemies, though you're a tad wrong about me not wanting stuff frozen anymore. I don't want stuff frozen on the other side of the map. Limbo's problems go far beyond his sphere of influence though - Range mods are not the problem here. A hint at what's the problem is DE continuously adding stuff to the game that isn't affected by Stasis.

How did I manage to explain how he won't get killed? Your new ability says I'll still be attacked because I'm not attacking enemies in the back shooting at me, only the ones I attack will be slowed, not to mention I can still die in that split second to 10 seconds depending on how long the slow takes to get to 100% 

And if you don't want stuff frozen on the other side of the map, maybe try lowering your range.

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53 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Limbo's got an exception other frames with sphere's of influence don't - complete immunity to everything unaffected by it. Simply put, everything affected by stasis is no threat, everything unaffected by stasis is no threat. Compare to Frost, where enemies that enter can threaten him, or Khora, where enemies outside can hurt her. They might be less able - distracted by those hanging in the web, or slowed, but they're still able. Limbo does not have that drawback. 

Khoras dome pulls enemies in with more range, and enemies trapped distract enemies. 

Frost has an augment that can freeze enemies upon entering, giving you enough time to kill them.

Limbo also has to recast his abilities like everyone else which opens him up to attacks.

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12 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Your new ability says I'll still be attacked because I'm not attacking enemies in the back shooting at me, only the ones I attack will be slowed,

If those enemies are in the Rift, that'd mean you banished more enemies than you could handle, plus that you didn't distract them with Rift Shadow if you needed to.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

in that split second to 10 seconds depending on how long the slow takes to get to 100% 

20 ticks of damage, at 100% Strength. 14 at 142% Strength. Plenty ways of doing that in a split second, and quite safe considering (1) you now got a high threat Shadow that takes miniscule damage form Rift-bound enemies and (2) as Limbo's abilities already work, enemies entering the rift are knocked down, except via Cataclysm which staggers them. A skilled player should be able to deal enough damage to build the slow while those tools keep them safe.

And again, Range isn't the main problem here.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Limbo also has to recast his abilities like everyone else which opens him up to attacks.

Not quite true. Banish and Rift Surge ending doesn't open up Limbo to attacks, neither does Cataclysm as long as you're standing outside of it. And in that brief moment of Stasis downtime, shield gating keeps you safe. There's also Rolling Guard if you're ever worried.

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1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

If those enemies are in the Rift, that'd mean you banished more enemies than you could handle, plus that you didn't distract them with Rift Shadow if you needed to.

20 ticks of damage, at 100% Strength. 14 at 142% Strength. Plenty ways of doing that in a split second, and quite safe considering (1) you now got a high threat Shadow that takes miniscule damage form Rift-bound enemies and (2) as Limbo's abilities already work, enemies entering the rift are knocked down, except via Cataclysm which staggers them. A skilled player should be able to deal enough damage to build the slow while those tools keep them safe.

And again, Range isn't the main problem here.

Not quite true. Banish and Rift Surge ending doesn't open up Limbo to attacks, neither does Cataclysm as long as you're standing outside of it. And in that brief moment of Stasis downtime, shield gating keeps you safe. There's also Rolling Guard if you're ever worried.

Shield gate is 1.3 seconds....stasis is 1 second. So you're not only trying to force us to use your own playstyle, but also forcing us to mod a certain way as well? 

If you want a more active playstyle, why can't you use a different frame or use different tactics with Limbo how he is? If you're a skilled player with 3,000 hours, can't you simply communicate with your team properly? 

Every frame isn't made for a public match, nor should it be changed for "skilled players" in a public match. His current kit could be tweaked to not influence other players in a public match, but that doesn't require a complete rework.

On the wiki it says "Limbo's abilities give him great survivability, making him a good solo frame."

If people are having issue with a particular Limbo in a group setting, then they need to talk to that player instead that's in their mission. 

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Shield gate is 1.3 seconds....stasis is 1 second. So you're not only trying to force us to use your own playstyle, but also forcing us to mod a certain way as well? 

Um... What?

Sorry mate, but at this point I've completely lost track of where you're going and what you're trying to say. It kinda sounds like you're saying "there are frames in this game not suited for public play, and that's good, as is frames that encourage passivity", but that's so dissonant with the way the devs are taking the game that I doubt that's what you're saying, and thus it'd be a complete derailment for me to respond to it.

If you leave a comment that I understand better, I'll happily reply. Otherwise, I think it's best if I just focus on others.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Khoras dome pulls enemies in with more range, and enemies trapped distract enemies. 

Frost has an augment that can freeze enemies upon entering, giving you enough time to kill them.

Limbo also has to recast his abilities like everyone else which opens him up to attacks.

That's not really the same thing as just flat, passive immunity to both sides of the rift, one side being unable to attack an intangiable target and the other frozen in time (unless, of course, they are immune, but if the devs have to go in and write a hard-counter to a Warframe because they're just that passively powerful, then they're not a reasonably designed Warframe). Not to mention, as you point out here: 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Shield gate is 1.3 seconds....stasis is 1 second. So you're not only trying to force us to use your own playstyle, but also forcing us to mod a certain way as well? 

Which means that even if enemies instantly target Limbo and drain his shields, he STILL has time to recast stasis without natural talent. And, having played since before shield-gating was a thing, I can assure you, even the mere window of time it takes for enemies to aim at you alone is more than enough, even to recast his 4.

In other words, Limbo is functionally invincible with the current system for the full duration of cataclysm he has so long as you can push two buttons and move a few feet to one side.

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4 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Um... What?

Sorry mate, but at this point I've completely lost track of where you're going and what you're trying to say. It kinda sounds like you're saying "there are frames in this game not suited for public play, and that's good, as is frames that encourage passivity", but that's so dissonant with the way the devs are taking the game that I doubt that's what you're saying, and thus it'd be a complete derailment for me to respond to it.

If you leave a comment that I understand better, I'll happily reply. Otherwise, I think it's best if I just focus on others.

How do you know where the devs are taking the game? Did I miss something on a stream? If you're gonna use the excuse that passive play isn't acceptable and completely dismantle 1 of like 4 defense frames, you should have a good reason, because you can also play actively with Limbo, just like you can play passively with Gara for example.

You didn't even know about defense objectives or allied NPCs, and you don't seem to be aware that operators aren't affected by the rift and can hack with it up. So Limbo is only an issue for people that haven't completed The War Within. 

9 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The thing is though that this seems to force DE to release enemies and stuff that are immune to Stasis, because Stasis is such an extreme - either you're a God or it does nothing. I believe it'd be healthier for the game if the freeze worked on a gradient, not to mention if it didn't freeze random enemies across the map.

Well, part of the purpose with this rework is reducing the amount of enemies in the Rift to just the ones Limbo's actively engaging, giving him more control and giving squad mates less headache over random rifted foes. If there ever was an enemy coming from an unforeseen direction, it'd be because you messed up with your banishing. Having banished enemies be a different color on the minimap would be good though, both in this rework and with Limbo as he currently is.!

But yeah, QoL changes are definitely needed. I appreciate you sharing your opinions and doing so with friendliness ^^

If an enemy is immune to stasis it's because it's not fodder. There aren't that many enemies immune and DE isn't "forced" to release enemies literally only because of Limbo.

Sentients should have some resistance to stasis because they are sentients. That was already handled during Scarlet spear, which wasn't a real issue for most anyways because we were killing them fine regardless, it was lazy or inexperienced players that brought that to light.

The treasure is immune because it's not fodder, it's a part of a mission where the point of the treasurer is to "be caught" by us so it's supposed to run away which is fine as well. 

Arbitrations affect all frames abilities equally as that's the point of the arbitration drone, but Limbo is still useful for using a small cataclysm to defend the excavator, which your rework would ruin.

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I have to say, this rework is beautiful, I love it. Idk what @(PS4)Madurai-Prime is trying to get at other than trying to use their playstyle as a reason not to make changes to limbo but yeah I think this rework is lovely!

Shadow step sounds amazing! My only issue with it is I think its bit outside the realm of what limbo does currently you know? I think that maybe he should keep his current stasis ability but make it so that it only affect enemies who are not hidden behind walls, and give it a limit on it's range. That way the players still will want use weapons on enemies that are too far. To do this, stasis could work like some sort of projectile ability that needs to hit enemies before it can freeze them

Then for limbo's passive, i really like this idea for a reworked passive rather than an augment:

21 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'd be good for that. It might need a small cooldown since players can enter the rift for free (especially Limbo himself) though, or perhaps something else thematic. Maybe something similar to rolling guard? 'Delayed Phase' Limbo de-synchs his shift between planes, granting himself and other frames in the squad damage resistance for a short time after a rift-walk. This starts at 100% and immediately begins falling over a couple seconds, but doesn't have a cooldown. Basically, a weaker Rolling Guard that doesn't have a cooldown.

Just in addition to that, make it to where limbo can go back into rift at a delayed phase. For instances lets say you are at 50% damage reduction. re entering the rift if not done through his 4th ability will increase his damage immunity by say 5% per second or what ever % per second that feels best. Giving players less of a risk for choosing to exit the rift while simultaneously adding a bit of balance

Your changes to banish, I'm 100% behind! I actually would take it the step further and say that any damage deal to the enemy form a player outside of the rift will unrift the enemy. 

Your changes to rift surge sound excellent, no comment here

Now cataclysm, does it still prevent enemies from shooting from the outside in? I want to know this before I continue

 

but yeah overall I'm digging this rework so far! 

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