Jump to content

Heart of Deimos: Nezha Prime: 29.3.0 + 29.3.0.1


Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, Old_Fogie said:

It's not just exalted melee that that's subpar, but other frames exalted as well. Take the Artemis bow, good for mid-range content. But it's pretty telling when a fully decked out Daikyu or Dredd edges out the Artemis in performance. Cernos Prime? Oh yeah, taken to a whole new level that embarrasses the Artemis. Throw any decent riven on any of those bows, and the Artemis might as well not exist.

Dex Pixia; Most peeps in pubs I see use her as aerial support ( a valid reason, I do as well), but once you get to about lvl 80 baddies she begins to flatten out on damage. Her crit and status should be higher.

There's a few other examples that could be mentioned, but my point is that exalted weapons should be exactly that. Exalted. Personally, if I spend all the time putting forma on a frame, not to mention all the hours leveling back up to get the build right, the exalted weapon should out perform anything in it's class, not be subpar or weaker to it.

The issue with exalted weapons is the same issue all damage dealing abilities have. They do not scale well beyond the mid game.

5000 damage per hit may seem like a lot for basic star chart but it falls off quickly in sorties, arbitrations, eso, railjack and steel path.

 

Or just cap enemy damage resistance.

Damage scaling wouldnt really be an issue if enemies did not have scaling armor and instead had scaling health to offset the difference.

Edited by Leqesai
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 19 horas, iPathos dijo:

They explained how they make the choices here in previous posts. None of the weapons being nerfed are underused in any capacity, and the buffs actually make sense.

So you are telling me that the reaper prime and the hate are so ussed and there are so many rivens for them that forced their hand? Oke... means i'm constantly in the 1% of public matchmaking  that never uses it.

Side note, in all the time i have played this game and all the times i kiled the stalker i have never  seen the hate drop. As a reference for drop rate...

Back to the reasoning for the nerfs buffs... if rivens are meant to boost unused weapons(as originally stated) why they are ever allowed to surpass the 1,2 ish mark? People won't magically start putting 5 formas and buying a riven for a wep coz magicaly it has a higher dispo... they already had the weapon to start with(so not so unpopular )...

Not to mention the 0,05 ajustments ... making changes like in popular Esports  games won't have any effect on a PVE game.

You feel the need to defend them or your own investment into this system,  i get that ... I myself got a few rivens i spent time and plat into but at the end of the day this system is the same as archwing only misions. How did Scott put it? "Waiting for him to pull the chair from under " 

Edited by kaotis
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Optimization gone wrong with this patch ... My performance almost got cut by half in open worlds , gonna do the player suggested fixes tho... İ hope this patch doesn't make me drop the game as the plains (when it came first it was poorly optimized and all high level things were at that map , my laptop couldn't run it so i stopped playing for 2 years) , well at least i got all the weapons from the father and open maps were decently playable up until this patch...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

The issue with exalted weapons is the same issue all damage dealing abilities have. They do not scale well beyond the mid game.

5000 damage per hit may seem like a lot for basic star chart but it falls off quickly in sorties, arbitrations, eso, railjack and steel path.

 

Or just cap enemy damage resistance.

Damage scaling wouldnt really be an issue if enemies did not have scaling armor and instead had scaling health to offset the difference.

 

So, I think this is an interesting topic.  You'll excuse me, but I'd like to frame this as I've tackled the issue.  

 

How do secondary weapons scale?  Well, there's mods.  The mods offer some of the best fire rate, and multishot.  In mission your only real scaling option is to shoot enemies in the head rather than in the body....so there really is no scaling.  As such, secondary weapons cannot be damage dealers as they scale.  This means the ideal secondary weapon is either a bubble popper (nullifiers), or a status spreader (atomos/nukor).

 

How do primary weapons scale?  Well....let's break these out into snipers, shotguns, and rifles.  Rifles are mods only, have the lowest multishot potential, and will scale slightly higher with head shots.  Shotguns are hugely geared towards massive multishot, and as such lack head shot focus.  Finally, snipers uniquely have the chained headshot mechanic and actually allow for a multiplier to damage assuming you can chain those head shots.  This means that the only type of primary that can scale is a sniper rifle...in a horde shooting game where headshot detection can be unique.  So, the ideal primary then would be a critical focused sniper rifle...as everything else rapidly gets scaled out of oblivion.  The alternative is a status spreader or bubble popper, but both of them functionally are repeats of the secondary option.

 

How do exalted weapons scale?  Now here's a fun one.  If they're actually modded for it's a crap shoot.  Most don't scale great, cannot equip rivens, and therefore scale with an invisible combo counter or otherwise a poor statistical background.  Now, the abilities that use base melee to scale off of are technically not able to be modded for.  That said, they often scale off of whatever melee you have.  That means you can equip a melee "stat stick" which can apply great rivens and mods, which allow for melee combo counter scaling.  This means up to x12 (for most weapons) scaling to damage which controls in-game.  The key here is that your play determines how much reward you get, even if the cap is present and therefore finite.

 

Talking about how melee scales is just copying and pasting the above.  Status scales, critical chance scales, and there are mods to specifically offer damage that additionally scales of of status count applied.  Basically, there are a minimum of 3 in-mission scaling potentials and then all of the initially placed mods.

 

 

 

The short of the above is that melee and snipers are the only things that have scaling in-mission.  This makes them basically the only way to participate in high level content, short of power spam.

Does it matter?  Surprisingly, no.  When I started melee was horrible, primaries did the job, secondaries were desperation, and there was no such things as health/energy/ammo pads to refill your stuff.  As such, most runs ended when your clip was dry.  Then for a brief window secondary weapons were king.  Think Synoid Gammacor, where the limiter on these was often simply ammo restrictions.  Once we got pads to refill with, primaries became the damage dealer.  The Tigris Prime decimated everything, and with things like the Kohm to contrast against you didn't focus on anything.  For the longest time this was the game, where high level play was restricted to powers because they could scale.  That is, until melee 2.xx came along.  Now we have a bigger combo counter, we get combo count faster, and those scaling mods suddenly mattered because the higher combo counter meant they could start scaling at x4, instead of the maximum being x4 so they failed to scale.

 

What is effectively being communicated is that melee is the only viable option in the game.

What has already been changed is scaling, which is now a modified s-curve instead of an exponential function.  This means there's a plateau on enemy increases, so we no longer have infinitely tougher enemies so there was no way eventually to simply continue.

 

What is the fix?  Well, it's DE's choice.  If they want it, the combo counter mechanic could be transferred to secondary and primaries.  If they want to get usage numbers up something needs to be able to scale, but it's unlikely to ever be addressed.  I'd more likely gamble that DE does nothing.  We've had years promising the removal of stat sticks, but every time it seems like the response is simply to nerf until homogenized usage numbers come up.  As such, DE won't be fixing it because it isn't their problem.  

Now....the pain in the proverbial prostate is that DE introduced the Steel Path.  Their version of difficulty is more shots, with braindead AI.  This means they don't have a problem with the scaling, because it's only a problem for high level play.  Nobody in this game does that [dripping sarcasm is palpable].

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anything been said about reintroducing self damage, even if it's a toggle that restricts us to solo?  Nezha Prime kind of makes me want to return to Warframe after 8-months, but I won't bother if self-damage turns into a topic similar to Auction Houses (that being a topic where the answer will always be a flat "no").

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a bug with Nezha primes 2 hold, when you charge it and let it get max distance before it returns, there is a lag time between that peak distance and wont let you teleport for around .5 seconds

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, kaotis said:

So you are telling me that the reaper prime and the hate are so ussed and there are so many rivens for them that forced their hand? Oke... means i'm constantly in the 1% of public matchmaking  that never uses it.

Side note, in all the time i have played this game and all the times i kiled the stalker i have never  seen the hate drop. As a reference for drop rate...

Back to the reasoning for the nerfs buffs... if rivens are meant to boost unused weapons(as originally stated) why they are ever allowed to surpass the 1,2 ish mark? People won't magically start putting 5 formas and buying a riven for a wep coz magicaly it has a higher dispo... they already had the weapon to start with(so not so unpopular )...

Not to mention the 0,05 ajustments ... making changes like in popular Esports  games won't have any effect on a PVE game.

You feel the need to defend them or your own investment into this system,  i get that ... I myself got a few rivens i spent time and plat into but at the end of the day this system is the same as archwing only misions. How did Scott put it? "Waiting for him to pull the chair from under " 

Yes, I mean exactly that. Their usage is skyrocketing because they both have amazing dispositions and their strength is still highly underrated by a fair portion of the player base, but that doesn't mean they're underused. I've gotten about 15 hate blueprints in my 4300 hours in-mission, your luck is just bad. The gradual and minor changes are meant to shift the meta/trends without an instant "this riven is now completely useless" (barring the recent update clamping new weapons to 0.5. the reason some of these dispositions remain is an artifact of old usage stats before weapon stat changes. Yes, they could rebalance the weapons instead but unless you know exactly how much work that is... No. Until we get that implemented in any capacity, I disagree with your sentiment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Yes, I mean exactly that. Their usage is skyrocketing because they both have amazing dispositions and their strength is still highly underrated by a fair portion of the player base, but that doesn't mean they're underused. I've gotten about 15 hate blueprints in my 4300 hours in-mission, your luck is just bad. The gradual and minor changes are meant to shift the meta/trends without an instant "this riven is now completely useless" (barring the recent update clamping new weapons to 0.5. the reason some of these dispositions remain is an artifact of old usage stats before weapon stat changes. Yes, they could rebalance the weapons instead but unless you know exactly how much work that is... No. Until we get that implemented in any capacity, I disagree with your sentiment.

 

Hehehe.  I can't even believe this is the response.

 

Let me highlight the bit that is laughable.  

...The gradual and minor changes are meant to shift the meta/trends without an instant "this riven is now completely useless"...

 

Why is this so funny?  Well, it's taking the exact opposite of what DE said they were doing, and somehow coming to the conclusion that they are shifting the meta in any way.  It isn't the meta that DE is trying to deal with, it's the fact that they want an outcome equality, and they've completely changed what rivens are supposed to do.

 

So, let's review.  Rivens release as a way to make older and worse weapons viable in high level content.  In practice, it's take weapon and set disposition such that the bonuses will make them equal.  Functionally, it's meant to take a Strun shotgun and buff it such that it can compete with the likes of the Kohm and Tigris Prime.  This is a great idea, as it's a way to make all of the content equal....but it requires balance.  DE implements dispositions, and the balance is off but constant for large portions of the time.  This creates a meta around god roll rivens, and subsequently a black market to fix prices.  Someone develops a work-around, that scrapes trade chat to try and combat the black market....and DE loses their collective cool.

Now, DE has to address the balance.  It's simple, right?  Well, 3 physical damage values, status, crit, crit multiplier, 4 core elements and 6 amalgam elements.  Then enemies have health, shields, and armor of varying types.  Oh no....this means trying to calculate a balance is bonkers.  Can't do that.

Despite the obvious illogical insanity, DE starts the quarterly reworks.  The starts a speculative market based upon values, because some rivens become worthless over night.  

Now, players are angry.  Their 1000 platinum riven is garbage, and there's new stuff all the time that's released and has great rivens, which become trash after a quarter.  People therefore stop valuing rivens, and the system begins to collapse.  DE, in their usual fashion, responds by promising a change.  Now, they can only change by at most 0.5.  That will mean that no riven becomes trash immediately, but it introduces the obvious problem of a 90+ day lag.  A lag which could be compounded by having multiple 90 day periods to drop off.

DE again responds....and they make every new riven minimum disposition.  This makes all rivens garbage for 90 days, but theoretically lets them change by more disposition because it's really only upward.  They've made new rivens garbage, and it's about half a year before we can see any stable change.

 

Let me TL;DR for the attention deficit crowd.  Rivens start as play field levelers.  They become broken meta builders which create a black market.  They get balanced wildly and lose value.  They become a lagging play usage indicator.  They finally settle as useless for half a year before being shifted up based upon player usage as a lagging indicator.  Not exactly the balancer they were sold as....and far more frustrating to both balance a game on and to be complete RNG.

 

 

So....are rivens really a good thing for DE?  Not really.  They've admitted that they don't know how to balance them, so they mess with statistics until outcome of player usage is as desired.  This is where you get rarely used items being nerfed for seemingly no reason.  Let me confirm the above speculation (which was accurate and not funny).  Certain weapons absolutely shred at high levels, and thus become meta for a segment of the player population.  These are eating disposition nerfs, even though the star chart warriors rarely see their usage.  Case in point, the scythes.  Other case in point, Stropha.  Stropha and Scythes are great....but in regular play their relatively rare.  This is because things like Gram, the Atterax, and other weapons have much better utility and their statistics are fine for usage.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-10-28 at 1:59 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blessings you can grant are:
Affinity Boost
Credit Boost
Resource Boost
Damage Buff
Health Buff
Shield Buff

We can only bless 1 of the 6? It certainly looked like we can bless all 6 in the writing.

Edited by kyori
Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone explain to me why some of the corrupted are so bright?C8152C6AD6C2D43329986C24F8F8F626EAD13017

Also, that bright flash in the beginning of almost all missions is starting to burn my eyeballs

P.S. What have you done to mastery signs? My mastery rank sign looks similar to that dead tree in the background in the screenshot above :(

Edited by muziqaz
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Hehehe.  I can't even believe this is the response.

 

Let me highlight the bit that is laughable.  

...The gradual and minor changes are meant to shift the meta/trends without an instant "this riven is now completely useless"...

 

Why is this so funny?  Well, it's taking the exact opposite of what DE said they were doing, and somehow coming to the conclusion that they are shifting the meta in any way.  It isn't the meta that DE is trying to deal with, it's the fact that they want an outcome equality, and they've completely changed what rivens are supposed to do.

 

So, let's review.  Rivens release as a way to make older and worse weapons viable in high level content.  In practice, it's take weapon and set disposition such that the bonuses will make them equal.  Functionally, it's meant to take a Strun shotgun and buff it such that it can compete with the likes of the Kohm and Tigris Prime.  This is a great idea, as it's a way to make all of the content equal....but it requires balance.  DE implements dispositions, and the balance is off but constant for large portions of the time.  This creates a meta around god roll rivens, and subsequently a black market to fix prices.  Someone develops a work-around, that scrapes trade chat to try and combat the black market....and DE loses their collective cool.

Now, DE has to address the balance.  It's simple, right?  Well, 3 physical damage values, status, crit, crit multiplier, 4 core elements and 6 amalgam elements.  Then enemies have health, shields, and armor of varying types.  Oh no....this means trying to calculate a balance is bonkers.  Can't do that.

Despite the obvious illogical insanity, DE starts the quarterly reworks.  The starts a speculative market based upon values, because some rivens become worthless over night.  

Now, players are angry.  Their 1000 platinum riven is garbage, and there's new stuff all the time that's released and has great rivens, which become trash after a quarter.  People therefore stop valuing rivens, and the system begins to collapse.  DE, in their usual fashion, responds by promising a change.  Now, they can only change by at most 0.5.  That will mean that no riven becomes trash immediately, but it introduces the obvious problem of a 90+ day lag.  A lag which could be compounded by having multiple 90 day periods to drop off.

DE again responds....and they make every new riven minimum disposition.  This makes all rivens garbage for 90 days, but theoretically lets them change by more disposition because it's really only upward.  They've made new rivens garbage, and it's about half a year before we can see any stable change.

 

Let me TL;DR for the attention deficit crowd.  Rivens start as play field levelers.  They become broken meta builders which create a black market.  They get balanced wildly and lose value.  They become a lagging play usage indicator.  They finally settle as useless for half a year before being shifted up based upon player usage as a lagging indicator.  Not exactly the balancer they were sold as....and far more frustrating to both balance a game on and to be complete RNG.

 

 

So....are rivens really a good thing for DE?  Not really.  They've admitted that they don't know how to balance them, so they mess with statistics until outcome of player usage is as desired.  This is where you get rarely used items being nerfed for seemingly no reason.  Let me confirm the above speculation (which was accurate and not funny).  Certain weapons absolutely shred at high levels, and thus become meta for a segment of the player population.  These are eating disposition nerfs, even though the star chart warriors rarely see their usage.  Case in point, the scythes.  Other case in point, Stropha.  Stropha and Scythes are great....but in regular play their relatively rare.  This is because things like Gram, the Atterax, and other weapons have much better utility and their statistics are fine for usage.

 

You're welcome to have your opinion here, but I am not talking to you, nor inviting discussion on the matter. I am responding to the user with DEs reasons, not mine. Take your suggestions to the correct location. As a footnote, not everything you post needs to be a literal wall of text. That has at least a modicum of influence on people's lack of interest in reading it in its entirety.

Edited by iPathos
Clarification.
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Are there any plans to make the deimos stuff less grindy? I still think the tokens are just annoying to deal with, and in general way too labor intensive to gather. Also the weapons take seriglass shard to make, which is 20 grandmother tokens, really? Just drop the tokens, and give the standing straight away, or at least make them less horribly expensive.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, iPathos said:

It's not free, far from it. Mastering 2.25mil points deserves an appropriate reward.

david rose pop GIF by Schitt's Creek

It isn't like we didn't get 30 riven slots, more loadout slots, 3 free umbra forma and the ability to give small buffs to other players.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • [DE]Megan unfeatured, locked and unpinned this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...