"Fake" Difficulty vs "Real" Difficulty

[dayvekeem]

This latest boss fight against Nihil is another in a long list of examples of how NOT to do difficulty.

Players spend all this time building their mods, frames... carefully tweaking formulas to create an optimal build... hundreds if not thousands of hours spent refining our frames...

And ALL of that is thrown out the window every... single... time... a new boss fight comes out.

This might as well be called "Puzzle Frame" because as it is, we are grinding our amazing gear so that we can... NOT use our gear during some of the most iconic and important fights?

I get it, balance issues and all that... but that's not a ME problem... that's a DE problem...

I absolutely loathe this trend in games where the difficulty is ARTIFICIALLY inflated by basically taking away EVERYTHING the player has WORKED FOR!!!

 

It's a cop-out... a cop-out from wanting to create a fun fight (Nihil is NOT fun, it's repetitive and boring and feels like a MOBILE GAME like Subway Surfers or Temple Run) by using FAKE difficulty (taking all player earned gear away) instead of REAL difficulty.

 

There. My 2c. 

 

This is just an opinion btw. I love this game dearly, if I didn't, I wouldn't care to share my opinion on it.

[OniDax]

This boss fight wasn't fun, imo. I didn't like Octavia's Anthem because of all the jumping around we had to do. It's because I don't like aim gliding. I don't like that we have little control of our direction when aim gliding due to the inertia, and because of that, I do not find these types of hop-around-because-the-floor-is-lava boss fights to be fun. It's frustrating with no sense of satisfaction when you complete it. You're just relieved it's over. It's the same feeling with grind in this game. It's not satisfying. It's just tedious and frustrating, and it doesn't leave me with a good feeling about the game. Everything in this game feels like a chore. That's no way to design the game.

As for the OP's argument, I don't think the problem is difficulty. I think the problem is the design of the gameplay. Here we have an Orokin with a sword, and there are no mechanics whatsoever for us to actually duel this guy. It wouldn't even have to be a For Honor duel system. It could just be Fallen Order's melee combat system, and they could even just restrict it to boss fights if they had to. Dodging glass beams isn't fun, imo. Real difficulty would have us using our skill to fight this guy, but there are no mechanics that are skill-based.

[HadouGun]

What do you do at the obelisk? I can't click on anything.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

28 minutes ago, dayvekeem said:

This latest boss fight against Nihil is another in a long list of examples of how NOT to do difficulty.

Players spend all this time building their mods, frames... carefully tweaking formulas to create an optimal build... hundreds if not thousands of hours spent refining our frames...

And ALL of that is thrown out the window every... single... time... a new boss fight comes out.

This might as well be called "Puzzle Frame" because as it is, we are grinding our amazing gear so that we can... NOT use our gear during some of the most iconic and important fights?

I get it, balance issues and all that... but that's not a ME problem... that's a DE problem...

I absolutely loathe this trend in games where the difficulty is ARTIFICIALLY inflated by basically taking away EVERYTHING the player has WORKED FOR!!!

 

It's a cop-out... a cop-out from wanting to create a fun fight (Nihil is NOT fun, it's repetitive and boring and feels like a MOBILE GAME like Subway Surfers or Temple Run) by using FAKE difficulty (taking all player earned gear away) instead of REAL difficulty.

 

There. My 2c. 

 

This is just an opinion btw. I love this game dearly, if I didn't, I wouldn't care to share my opinion on it.

You know that not everyone is at the same level of progression, right? And since that's a DE problem, as you put it, they need to work it out with those players in mind. But here's the interesting part of what you said, YOU chose your gear to give you more and more power. If you're unhappy with the fact that you're too powerful for the content, then that's something YOU can easily fix. 

Kinda makes it a you problem, doesn't it? 

[(NSW)Katsuro]

just go play genshin impact

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

You know that not everyone is at the same level of progression, right? And since that's a DE problem, as you put it, they need to work it out with those players in mind. But here's the interesting part of what you said, YOU chose your gear to give you more and more power. If you're unhappy with the fact that you're too powerful for the content, then that's something YOU can easily fix. 

Kinda makes it a you problem, doesn't it? 

Chosing gear is a defining gameplay element of the genre. If you don't chose a gear and build, why bother playing a looter shooter.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

eh i found it to be fun, instead of mindlessly shooting at a worthless boss like a mad man, i got to use my wits, so that counts i guess

[OniDax]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

eh i found it to be fun, instead of mindlessly shooting at a worthless boss like a mad man, i got to use my wits, so that counts i guess

Really? So dodging blasts, bullet jumping and throwing a glass ball is using your wits? I found it to be tedious. I wish Warframe had a For Honor-style dueling system so that we could actually duel sword-wielding bosses. At least Nihil looks cool. That's the only thing I liked about it. I wish all Orokin looked as cool as Nihil.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, dayvekeem said:

Players spend all this time building their mods, frames... carefully tweaking formulas to create an optimal build... hundreds if not thousands of hours spent refining our frames...

And ALL of that is thrown out the window every... single... time... a new boss fight comes out.

From the start, we progress and collect to grow stronger, so we can take on tougher challenges until we can beat the toughest stuff in the game. But Warframe's player-side power progression keeps going higher even after you hit that point where enemy intensity kinda just levels off (or rewards nothing extra). Once we hit that point, any further power you gain isn't giving you access to tougher stuff (because there is no tougher stuff), your added power is just making the game easier and easier. The issue few like to look at is that in the current state of Warframe, a long-time enough player is too powerful to be challenged by anything the system can throw their way without taking some of their power off the table.

If the Nihil fight allowed us to bring in our abilities and arsenal as we would against a classic Warframe boss, I guarantee it would be a giant snooze for any player who decided to use:

• Mesa
• Chroma
• Buffer Volt
• the Dragon Key/ Shieldgate loop
• any frame that can turn invisible
• Exodia Contagion
• and many more...

Powercreep has more-or-less defeated the core progression system of Warframe. Late-game players can't really face any difficulty unless our power is limited, a la the Glassmaker fight, the Grendel missions, etc. In these cases, the game gives up on challenging our unbeatable arsenals and instead challenges the player. Sure a Lvl 30 Defense is an utter cakewalk to an MR28... but could you do it without Mods?

 

[Monolake]

This is why Im saying WF is in a dead end, the players are too overpowered so as a result creating not just a challenge but simply active gameplay is next to impossible unless you disable powers and make cheesy enemies that are immune to most things.

Oh and Im sure there is a way to completely trivialize and cheese this fight too which DE overlooked, happens all the time (just like with Protea farm most frames are gimped but few can still cheese it and 1-button autowin, throwing all the mechanics with Xoris out of the window).

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's a little side game and has no bearing outside of the game for that 20 minute encounter. Stop exaggerating and learn how to parkour maybe.

[LoneDirewolf]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's a little side game and has no bearing outside of the game for that 20 minute encounter. Stop exaggerating and learn how to parkour maybe.

Yeah from the way these guys are talking, its as if this boss is the be all end all of Warframe progress, instead of a fun boss fight that tests your acrobatic abilites (ykow, cause its a space ninja game where movement is a big part of gameplay ?)

Heaven forbid we cant just bring our 50 forma 2000 plat riven Rubico and one shot him.

Boo hoo, diversity of gameplay !

[ZenroZephon]

I did not find it fun one bit.

But that's mostly due to the glass he shoots heat seeked my butt like a bombard on crack, him destroying the ground in huge chunks making moving/dodging at all next in impossible at the best of times, as well as the instant-killing he will do without warning.

Tried "fighting" him twice, and will not do it again. That sword is not worth the grief this "Fight" put me through already.

[killerJoke66]

I think this was nice ,  a breath of fresh air from powercreep feels good to me and this fight reminded me of some throw mechanics from darksider series.

[Aadi880]

There is no such thing as "real difficulty" in warframe.

One will like it, another will call it tedious. This community will never ever agree on anything regarding difficulty until DE themselves sets a standard for it, AND set it to stone.

 

There is no standard on difficulty in warframe, and therefore, no difficulty that anyone will agree on.

[IainG10]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

From the start, we progress and collect to grow stronger, so we can take on tougher challenges until we can beat the toughest stuff in the game. But Warframe's player-side power progression keeps going higher even after you hit that point where enemy intensity kinda just levels off (or rewards nothing extra). Once we hit that point, any further power you gain isn't giving you access to tougher stuff (because there is no tougher stuff), your added power is just making the game easier and easier. The issue few like to look at is that in the current state of Warframe, a long-time enough player is too powerful to be challenged by anything the system can throw their way without taking some of their power off the table.

If the Nihil fight allowed us to bring in our abilities and arsenal as we would against a classic Warframe boss, I guarantee it would be a giant snooze for any player who decided to use:

• Mesa
• Chroma
• Buffer Volt
• the Dragon Key/ Shieldgate loop
• any frame that can turn invisible
• Exodia Contagion
• and many more...

Powercreep has more-or-less defeated the core progression system of Warframe. Late-game players can't really face any difficulty unless our power is limited, a la the Glassmaker fight, the Grendel missions, etc. In these cases, the game gives up on challenging our unbeatable arsenals and instead challenges the player. Sure a Lvl 30 Defense is an utter cakewalk to an MR28... but could you do it without Mods?

 

Here is the issue that you have COMPLETELY missed; choice.

If you want to be challenged in most of Warframe's content, you can remove all your mods, take a completely unoptimized Frame/weapon, challenge yourself to not use abilities etc, and then set your matchmaking to invite only to keep people with a different playstyle out (which is fine, that's what that is for). But removing the choice for players is a toxic tactic that game developers add when they mistake challenge for fun. I hate platformers; I play none, I purchase none, and I hate every second of platforming sections in other gmaes (Guild Wars 2 I am solidly looking at you and your jumping puzzles here). Do not force me to go through a platformer for content because you feel I've power-crept too much. I will just end up hating it, potentially enough to abandon the game or impact my spending choices, especially if the trend continues. If a player has decided to use any of your cheesey build examples, it's probably because they like that playstyle and find it fun; it's a solo fight, they aren't ruining your fun, why do you get a say in how they have theirs?

I imagine if DE decided to make a real-time/turn-based strategy section and lock something behind it, everyone that came from a shooter background would hate every second. If there was some ARMA-like section where you spent 3 hours carefully maneuvering behind enemy lines, only to styep on a mine and die, every MOBA player would down controller/keyboard and just quit. Making players play a different game that they did not sign up for is NEVER a winning strategy; its why there is no content gated behind Flappy Zephyr or Frame Fighter. This is a dangerous precedent, to the point where I think it actually needs to be altered, and this is coming from someone that actually agreed with DE's choices on reverting the Hema research costs.

[Veridian]

Can people start writing in a calm and coherent manner.

This thing seems written by Karen for clickbait.com

[(PSN)GingyGreen]

This is what you get and deserve when you keep asking for increasingly OP frames and weapons.

 

This is what you deserve when you shout down any calls to nerfs for OP S#&$.

 

 

The community made their bed and they can sleep on it. Want better bosses? Then start calling for nerfs to all the egregious outliers.

 

 

(in all honesty Nihil isn't that bad, it made me test around, and I got him)

 

 

[Akko_Cavendish]

But as we all know the damage is broken, there is no way to make a boss without making "stages" and invulnerable. I think it's a fair boss fight.

[Butterfly85]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

just go play genshin impact

Funnily enough I did just that. Half an hour of bulls#$t from this w#%#ker of a boss, of endless shards not landing anywhere near where I was aiming, horrible platforming and instakill nonsense, I just alt+F4'd the hell out of the game and went wandering around Teyvat for an hour instead.

[NecroPed]

What's the point in a unique boss if it dies before you can see what the boss can do. A lot of time and effort goes into game development and they want people to experience it. If a new boss comes and it's killable in a single hit because of high tier gear, it's not a worthwhile boss, it's just another enemy. I haven't tried this boss so can't speak on it specifically, and I do have issues with some bosses. But, phases and restrictions in boss fights makes sense when it's used to make you actually experience the boss.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

personally the fight wasn't all that bad, but I'm not all that keen on the "disappearing Platforms" or "having to kill the boss with their own projectiles" mechanics.

my issue with the platforms is they didn't seem to rebuild very fast, if at all, except when moving to the next Phase of the fight. a couple of times my friends said they got down to like 3 platforms only, and Nihil was still trying to destroy them. thankfully there's no penalty for falling, but it was a slight issue.

having to kill a boss with their own projectiles is a bad idea IMO because you're having to rely on the boss to determine the pace of the fight. dodging the projectiles was easy enough, but all to often his accuracy was so bad that he threw them over or past me, and through the holes in the floor. this messes up the pace of the fight, and he can keep destroying platforms whilst missing you with the glass. also I would have thought that after all those Thermia canisters used in Exploiter's fight, our Tenno would have a decent throwing arm by now, but they still throw things like my mother: limp wristed and only remotely dangerous within about 3ft. if we can wield Swords nearly twice as tall as a human, WHY CAN'T WE THROW PROPERLY?!

I also think that Nihil's sweeping attack, while easy enough to avoid, shouldn't be a one-hit kill. that's a bit much IMO, but once I learned to dodge it reliably it became a non-issue.

overall it wasn't the worst boss fight ever, but it wasn't all the great either. just as well I went in with very low expectations. I'm glad that you only have to do it the once as well, if RNG was an issue too, I think I would have started disliking the fight. I look forward to glassing people with my shiny new Vitrica tomorrow.

 

[Trako]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You know that not everyone is at the same level of progression, right? And since that's a DE problem, as you put it, they need to work it out with those players in mind. But here's the interesting part of what you said, YOU chose your gear to give you more and more power. If you're unhappy with the fact that you're too powerful for the content, then that's something YOU can easily fix. 

Kinda makes it a you problem, doesn't it? 

Did you even read the post?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Chosing gear is a defining gameplay element of the genre. If you don't chose a gear and build, why bother playing a looter shooter.

Read it again. I pointed out that choosing gear is exactly the solution to the problem the OP seems to be claiming is not something that they have the power to control.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

But here's the interesting part of what you said, YOU chose your gear to give you more and more power. If you're unhappy with the fact that you're too powerful for the content, then that's something YOU can easily fix. 

Instead of trying to blame DE for making them so powerful, they are 100% free to step it back, and in doing so increace the "difficulty" they seem to be so interested in.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Trako said:

Did you even read the post?

I did. At best it's pointless whining about a self-created situation. Alternatively it's a weak humble brag. At worst the OP is clueless about the game and doesn't realise that they don't need to copy the meta at all time.

If you pay attention to what I wrote, you'll see that I used their own words to show how they can fix "the problem".

[Teljaxx]

A long time ago, DE started digging themselves a hole. They realized the hole was getting pretty deep, and thought maybe they should stop, and climb out while they still had the chance. But, everyone on the forums told them that wasn't fun, and they should to keep going. Now the hole is miles deep, and their chance to climb out is long gone. And still the forums urge them ever downwards.

That hole is powercreep. DE had plenty of opportunities to stop it, and reverse the little there was, but they didn't. Instead they doubled down on it because it made them money. And who cares about good game design, or balance, when there's money to be made! Balanced weapons don't sell nearly as well as the best gun in the whole game. And no one wants to spend days grinding for a new weapon, only to find its no better than all the ones you already have. It better be the most OP god cannon in existence for that kind of investment.

So, now, when the entire game should be about a 10, it actually goes from 1 to 10,000. And the only choice DE has in enemy design is one of two things: Either let people completely overpower them, thus nullifying any kind of challenge or engagement. Or, create mechanics that completely nullify the player's equipment, so that everyone, from 1 to 10,000 is forced to be a 10.

Neither of these is a good choice, because it completely nullifies an entire half of the game equation. Either player variety gets removed, or enemy variety gets removed. Either way, you're stuck only playing half a game.

But eh, what do I know? Balance clearly doesn't matter in a PvE game.