"Fake" Difficulty vs "Real" Difficulty

[(PSN)Navalhabr]

The fight doesn't need to be boring to be easy.

Bayonetta (2:30)

 

 

[AegisSiege]

Like... was this fight supposed to be the End Boss? Because unless it was, I don't think it matters. It was a basic skill check to get a cool sword. Chill out. You only have to do it once, and then you never have to go back to it. 
There are much worse boss fights in this game, and once you have to do over and over to get things that aren't as useful as a Large Sword of Glassy Doom. 

[Klaeljanu]

23 hours ago, dayvekeem said:

This latest boss fight against Nihil is another in a long list of examples of how NOT to do difficulty.

Players spend all this time building their mods, frames... carefully tweaking formulas to create an optimal build... hundreds if not thousands of hours spent refining our frames...

And ALL of that is thrown out the window every... single... time... a new boss fight comes out.

This might as well be called "Puzzle Frame" because as it is, we are grinding our amazing gear so that we can... NOT use our gear during some of the most iconic and important fights?

I get it, balance issues and all that... but that's not a ME problem... that's a DE problem...

I absolutely loathe this trend in games where the difficulty is ARTIFICIALLY inflated by basically taking away EVERYTHING the player has WORKED FOR!!!

 

It's a cop-out... a cop-out from wanting to create a fun fight (Nihil is NOT fun, it's repetitive and boring and feels like a MOBILE GAME like Subway Surfers or Temple Run) by using FAKE difficulty (taking all player earned gear away) instead of REAL difficulty.

 

There. My 2c. 

 

This is just an opinion btw. I love this game dearly, if I didn't, I wouldn't care to share my opinion on it.

Yeah, like building a frame for max jump height, sprint speed + rolling guard.  That is completely usele... Oh wait.  no, that build is very useful for this fight. 

That aside, the nihil fight is awesome because it is purely player skill.  There's no Saryn or Volt Cheese, its just, *can you jump and roll at the right times.*

[KosmicKerman]

Fake Difficulty = stuff I don't like. Real Difficulty = stuff I do like. DE please keep this in mind next time you are designing content. Thanks.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

46 minutes ago, KosmicKerman said:

Fake Difficulty = stuff I don't like. Real Difficulty = stuff I do like. DE please keep this in mind next time you are designing content. Thanks.

Are you sure that it's not the other way around? 

"Anything I don't like = fake difficulty, 

Anything I do like = real difficulty" 

Because that's the way this thread reads. 

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Logged after a decent break to get the sword.

As soon as I saw both weapons and abilities disabled in the fight, I laughed so hard.

Nihil had spectacular visuals, and that's about it. Those who say it was "mechanically challenging", probably have never seen a mechanically challenging fight in their lives. The only failure condition is getting hit 4 times (6 with arcanes) by the horizontal, one hit kill sweep. After dying once to it, you maybe understand that jumping up dodges it. You can also notice afterwards that falling into the void doesn't penalize you in any way, so here goes the only "mechanical challenge" in the whole encounter, because suddenly survival is no longer a problem as you can bullet jump up, on reaction, whenever Nihil sweeps without a care in the world for where you land. 

The Nihil fight is not some audacious example of "gameplay variety": it borrows the same exact mechanics Octavia's anthem and exploiter use, which boil down to jumping on suspended platforms and dealing with the boss by throwing objects at it. It's just the newest entry in the never ending cycle of pieces of core combat being arbitrarily taken away because they don't work in a way that's compatible with decent gameplay. 

Apart from the coat of paint, there's nothing in it that's relevant to the game's core mechanics. It just feels so disconnected. But it is disconnected for good reason, because those same core mechanics, meaning gunplay and abilities, are so busted that any fight involving those as the main gameplay would either be supremely boring and exploited, or just a massive gear check that forces a strict meta. See Scarlet Spear. See Eidolons. And no, handicapping oneself just to experience balanced gameplay is not a viable solution. In a game whose entire progression path revolves around power and theory crafting powerful builds, dropping the tools the game offers in order to have a mildly engaging experience is insulting the player's time and intelligence.

Is asking for combat that's true to Warframe's essence, ergo the union of mobility, gunplay, melee and abilities, and that's also engaging, really that unreasonable or unhealthy for the game?

[(PSN)adachi_2]

22 hours ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

This is what you get and deserve when you keep asking for increasingly OP frames and weapons.

 

This is what you deserve when you shout down any calls to nerfs for OP S#&$.

 

 

The community made their bed and they can sleep on it. Want better bosses? Then start calling for nerfs to all the egregious outliers.

 

 

(in all honesty Nihil isn't that bad, it made me test around, and I got him)

 

 

That's the most dumbest way to have difficulty yea nerfs fix the xoris but it does not mean difficulty without it wepons are made to cater to ur likeing a reward for ur hard work and if it has sht in performance that's why we have mods to fix that also they make it more fun you dont see ghost of tsushima nerfing they're katanas cuz they're op they wont because they're legendarys which u earned 

[Toran]

Am 27.10.2020 um 21:52 schrieb Monolake:

This is why Im saying WF is in a dead end, the players are too overpowered so as a result creating not just a challenge but simply active gameplay is next to impossible unless you disable powers and make cheesy enemies that are immune to most things.

Oh and Im sure there is a way to completely trivialize and cheese this fight too which DE overlooked, happens all the time (just like with Protea farm most frames are gimped but few can still cheese it and 1-button autowin, throwing all the mechanics with Xoris out of the window).

Warframe needs only ONE different game mode that isn't destroyed by your overpower. Railjack had a chance, but they drowned it in mods. The only time you experience skill-based gaming in Warframe is as beginner (aslong as no demi-god Tenno are around), for me that's 6 years ago. As beginner every headshot counts, you have to worry about resistances and damage types and if you're a group of beginners, you define roles and team setups...

That felt a whole lot different from today... where I pick tools. Mobile Defense? I bring Khora or Limbo. Spy? Wukong will do it. ESO? Hello Saryn. Openworld Sortie? Mesa. Hijack? Hildryn. Interception? Anna Slonova if you want to cover for a bad team etc. Nearly anything can be done by one guy bringing the right frame, the rest of the group is bonus XP and extra spawns.

Imagine you had one game mode where it all doesn't count, maybe your equipment and the enemies are predetermined, maybe it's something else altogether. It wouldn't be to hard to do.

I played Ghostrunner a lot since its release yesterday and realized it's got something Warframe probably won't offer again: satisfying and fun challenge. Thematically they are pretty similar: hightech futuristic ninja with deadly gadget and skills kills legions of enemies while doing parcours. The difference: in Ghostrunner you need actual skills, dodging, aiming, situational awareness, timing, Get hit, you're dead. You die alot there, but once it clicked and you're in a flow it becomes ballet of steel and bullets.

I don't say Warframe needs a complete overhaul, but it would be nice if it had one kind of content where you have the chance to fail, where you need to show skill or teamplay and stay on your toes to get through. After 7 years, I doubt that ever will happen. Fashion is Endgame.

 

 

[CephalonCarnage]

Ghostrunner seems interesting - but more platformer/parkour to it than would wuit me (I'm more a strategy guy). And to be honest, if DE put a boss fight that was you standing on a hill directing an army of Steel Meridian troops and Red Veil assassins to assault a Kuva fortress, I'd be more than happy. The kids saying "git gud" to me because I dislike jumping on floating platforms would hate it though.

Perhaps the next NW boss should be like that, it'd be different :-)

[(PSN)GingyGreen]

11 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

First, its one of those super dumb fights where the boss kills himself. If he never used his projectile attack, you couldn't beat him, so why does he? Some criminal mastermind we got here...

Accuracy: What even is? The hardest part of the fight was getting him to actually hit the platform with his glass snot rockets. Most of the time, he would just fire it off into empty space, and I would get nothing to throw back.

Instant death attacks with vague hitboxes that go way beyond their actual graphics. Always fun.

What is Warframe your first video game? Bosses that provide the means to kill them has been a staple in most bosses in other video games. It's one of the longest trope page.

 

 

Also, have you heard of dodging? A giant sword the size of your body may hit hard, but it's

a) extremely slow

b) heavily telegraphed like a Zelda game's

c) overly narrow hit box

 

[Teljaxx]

13 hours ago, (NSW)DracoHouston said:

This sort of thinking shows no imagination. It is perfectly possible to make a good game and have insane power creep, it has never been a problem that bosses can be demolished in seconds in games like Diablo 2 or Path of Exile. Balancing things like Everquest clones (eg WoW, FF14) for tight raid bosses is only one way to do it. The idea that you can get an engaging shooter boss is extremely optimistic, also. Nihil would have been at home in Quake (this is not a compliment), a showy gimmick fight. Sometimes you just want to shoot the cyberdemon until it dies.

You're right. This boss is like one of the terrible Quake 1 bosses. Its all style, no substance. And it completely ignores all the core mechanics of the game at the same time. And yet I still prefer running laps around Chthon, or teleporting into Shub Niggurath, to fighting Nihil. At least they were over quickly.

The difference between the power growth in Diablo and Warframe, is that Diablo planned for it from the beginning. They didn't add more and more powerful items over years of updates, like Warframe has. So it isn't powercreep in Diablo, its just progression. Eventually getting to the point where a boss is no match for you is just an inevitable effect of any kind of leveling system. And its fine, as long as there are still other bosses that can match your higher power. But what boss in Warframe can stand up to a Riven'd Rubico Prime wielded by an immortal Nidus?

I too would love to be able to "Shoot the Cyberdemon until it dies" in Warframe. But Warframe is like playing Doom with cheats on. The Cyberdemon is fun to fight when you have to rocket duel it the way the level designers intended. But turn on Godmode and give yourself the BFG, and it gets boring real fast.

Sure, you could intentionally limit yourself, and bring all your weaker gear to a mission to make it fair. But the simple fact that you even have to consider that is the problem itself. A well designed game shouldn't have its players making decisions like that. Especially since Warframe doesn't even have any kind of standard leveling system to make it easy. Its impossible to figure out exactly what mods to put on what guns to deal the exact right amount of damage against any specific level of enemies to get the intended challenge out of them. Not to mention the constant threat of extra powerful enemies like the Stalker showing up randomly. Which is why most people don't bother, and just bring their best stuff no matter what.

3 hours ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

What is Warframe your first video game? Bosses that provide the means to kill them has been a staple in most bosses in other video games. It's one of the longest trope page.

 

 

Also, have you heard of dodging? A giant sword the size of your body may hit hard, but it's

a) extremely slow

b) heavily telegraphed like a Zelda game's

c) overly narrow hit box

 

I have said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a thousand more: Just because everyone does something doesn't mean its good. Just because there are a ton of bosses that give you the tools to kill them doesn't mean it isn't lazy boss design 101. If anything, that just makes it worse, because its also generic and overused.

There are also plenty of examples of this that don't make the boss character as blatantly stupid as Nihil is. He has two attacks: an instant kill sword slash, and a slowing projectile. The sword slash can kill us, takes away our ground, and can't be used against him. The slowing projectile will never kill us, and is the only way for us to kill him. So why does he use it at all? Why doesn't he just slash at us until we run out of revives and/or platforms? He's supposed to be some genius serial killer, but this just makes him seem like an idiot.

Also, have you heard that I beat the boss in one try? The problem isn't that its hard. Once I realized that I had to evade earlier than I though, because his vertical attack is bigger than it looks, I was fine. But it was also frustrating, because the couple times I did get hit, it looked like he missed. Matching hitbox to attack graphics is kindergarten level game design. And if DE can't even manage that, there are no excuses.

[(NSW)DracoHouston]

48 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

You're right. This boss is like one of the terrible Quake 1 bosses. Its all style, no substance. And it completely ignores all the core mechanics of the game at the same time. And yet I still prefer running laps around Chthon, or teleporting into Shub Niggurath, to fighting Nihil. At least they were over quickly.

The difference between the power growth in Diablo and Warframe, is that Diablo planned for it from the beginning. They didn't add more and more powerful items over years of updates, like Warframe has. So it isn't powercreep in Diablo, its just progression. Eventually getting to the point where a boss is no match for you is just an inevitable effect of any kind of leveling system. And its fine, as long as there are still other bosses that can match your higher power. But what boss in Warframe can stand up to a Riven'd Rubico Prime wielded by an immortal Nidus?

I too would love to be able to "Shoot the Cyberdemon until it dies" in Warframe. But Warframe is like playing Doom with cheats on. The Cyberdemon is fun to fight when you have to rocket duel it the way the level designers intended. But turn on Godmode and give yourself the BFG, and it gets boring real fast.

Sure, you could intentionally limit yourself, and bring all your weaker gear to a mission to make it fair. But the simple fact that you even have to consider that is the problem itself. A well designed game shouldn't have its players making decisions like that. Especially since Warframe doesn't even have any kind of standard leveling system to make it easy. Its impossible to figure out exactly what mods to put on what guns to deal the exact right amount of damage against any specific level of enemies to get the intended challenge out of them. Not to mention the constant threat of extra powerful enemies like the Stalker showing up randomly. Which is why most people don't bother, and just bring their best stuff no matter what.

I have said it a thousand times, and I'll say it a thousand more: Just because everyone does something doesn't mean its good. Just because there are a ton of bosses that give you the tools to kill them doesn't mean it isn't lazy boss design 101. If anything, that just makes it worse, because its also generic and overused.

There are also plenty of examples of this that don't make the boss character as blatantly stupid as Nihil is. He has two attacks: an instant kill sword slash, and a slowing projectile. The sword slash can kill us, takes away our ground, and can't be used against him. The slowing projectile will never kill us, and is the only way for us to kill him. So why does he use it at all? Why doesn't he just slash at us until we run out of revives and/or platforms? He's supposed to be some genius serial killer, but this just makes him seem like an idiot.

Also, have you heard that I beat the boss in one try? The problem isn't that its hard. Once I realized that I had to evade earlier than I though, because his vertical attack is bigger than it looks, I was fine. But it was also frustrating, because the couple times I did get hit, it looked like he missed. Matching hitbox to attack graphics is kindergarten level game design. And if DE can't even manage that, there are no excuses.

I point mostly to d2 and PoE because d2 never really had a challenge worthy of an overleveled and overgeared d2 character, and PoE players have enjoyed a ton of power increases as they added more uniques, more systems for character customization, skills and supports etc. They also take lovingly crafted bosses and explode them, along with a lot of minor bosses that are about as deep as the Sergeant carelessly demolished at the end of a map run. I've had some pretty epic fights with PoE bosses but I wasn't using the equivalent of a min/maxing eddy farmer. This game and diablo-likes are pretty different and make this work doing things this game does not and probably can not do. Ladder resets are a big obvious difference, adding a racing element to leveling and the power of builds. There is also less expectation of being able to see and complete all the content. But what I am saying is there is nothing wrong per se with players being tiny gods. 

I'd be up for some encounters in warframe that approach the kind of challenge of, say, having a shaper viable build vs one that can just do maps or beat the story in PoE. It is a shame that the closest we have is Steel Path, which has at least made some demands on my builds, but it wasn't that hard to get a lot of different frame/weapon loadouts viable in Steel Path. 

[SenorClipClop]

On 2020-10-28 at 6:26 AM, IainG10 said:

Here is the issue that you have COMPLETELY missed; choice.

If you want to be challenged in most of Warframe's content, you can remove all your mods, take a completely unoptimized Frame/weapon, challenge yourself to not use abilities etc, and then set your matchmaking to invite only to keep people with a different playstyle out (which is fine, that's what that is for).

I haven't missed it, I've ignored it. If it's the player that must take it upon themselves to create challenge, the designers have done nothing to deliver a challenge to players, so that's not even on the game design table. Many games have features you can use to make the game harder but pair those with rewards -- be it simple Achievements, character unlocks and more -- but no game gives you power to the point of making itself easy, suggests you challenge yourself by removing your own power and then give you nothing in exchange, and expects to be taken seriously.

On 2020-10-28 at 6:26 AM, IainG10 said:

But removing the choice for players is a toxic tactic that game developers add when they mistake challenge for fun....  If a player has decided to use any of your cheesey build examples, it's probably because they like that playstyle and find it fun

I'll bet the lion's share of the people who find cheese fun find it fun only because it's powerful, and if it wasn't powerful they wouldn't find it fun. Moar power = moar fun is not a great design principle to have when thinking about how to design a game that isn't a factory-building game or an idle game.

On 2020-10-28 at 6:26 AM, IainG10 said:

Do not force me to go through a platformer for content because you feel I've power-crept too much. I will just end up hating it, potentially enough to abandon the game or impact my spending choices, especially if the trend continues.

Wow, what makes you hate platforming so much? And why did you stick with a parkour-heavy game like Warframe if so?

On 2020-10-28 at 6:26 AM, IainG10 said:

I imagine if DE decided to make a real-time/turn-based strategy section and lock something behind it, everyone that came from a shooter background would hate every second.

Are people only allowed to like one type of game now? Nobody told me.

On 2020-10-28 at 6:26 AM, IainG10 said:

This is a dangerous precedent

Your opinion is your own, but I think we're being a little dramatic about this 5-minute, 2-input fight for a single weapon. Especially since this isn't even close to the first instance of content gated behind platforming. We've got the Spy Vaults and Ascension Halls on Lua, a few boss fights, the secret labs in Gas City, numerous MR Tests, and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. 

[wtrmlnjuc]

Okay, so you built out your gear and then what? The boss either becomes steamrolled or it's a bullet sponge aka a bore. You need real skill-based difficulty somewhere in the equation. This is one of the few times in Warframe your tactical skill and reflexes are tested, which is real difficulty. It doesn't matter how good your equipment is if you can't master the basics. The game has had strategic gear based difficulty in spades for years.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I haven't missed it, I've ignored it. If it's the player that must take it upon themselves to create challenge, the designers have done nothing to deliver a challenge to players, so that's not even on the game design table. Many games have features you can use to make the game harder but pair those with rewards -- be it simple Achievements, character unlocks and more -- but no game gives you power to the point of making itself easy, suggests you challenge yourself by removing your own power and then give you nothing in exchange, and expects to be taken seriously.

And yet, people do that with all sorts of games every day. They set themselves unusual challenges outside of the game's design, like speedrunning, or no deaths, or speedrunning with no deaths. 

Here are a couple of youtube videos to drive the point home, showing that people attempt all sorts of challenges that the desingers never intended:

Can You Beat Super Mario World With Only Spin Jumps?

VG Myths - Can You Beat Super Mario Odyssey Without Jumping?

“A Button Challenge,” which requires players to beat a level with as few A button presses as possible.

People take these sorts of self-inflicted limitations seriously, the fact that you do not, doesn't invalidate the challenges, or the fact that pulling them off is quite impressive. The fact that you seem to expect to be rewarded at all times, probably says more about your own personality, than anything else, don't you think? DE needs to build for the majority of players, to balance based on both the large casual base and the relatively small number of "endgamers". If people insist on an ever greater challenge, they can easily create it themselves, and many people already do. Just take a look at the obstacle courses people spend time creating in their dojos. 🤷‍♂️

 

[IainG10]

5 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I haven't missed it, I've ignored it. If it's the player that must take it upon themselves to create challenge, the designers have done nothing to deliver a challenge to players, so that's not even on the game design table. Many games have features you can use to make the game harder but pair those with rewards -- be it simple Achievements, character unlocks and more -- but no game gives you power to the point of making itself easy, suggests you challenge yourself by removing your own power and then give you nothing in exchange, and expects to be taken seriously.

I'll bet the lion's share of the people who find cheese fun find it fun only because it's powerful, and if it wasn't powerful they wouldn't find it fun. Moar power = moar fun is not a great design principle to have when thinking about how to design a game that isn't a factory-building game or an idle game.

Wow, what makes you hate platforming so much? And why did you stick with a parkour-heavy game like Warframe if so?

Are people only allowed to like one type of game now? Nobody told me.

Your opinion is your own, but I think we're being a little dramatic about this 5-minute, 2-input fight for a single weapon. Especially since this isn't even close to the first instance of content gated behind platforming. We've got the Spy Vaults and Ascension Halls on Lua, a few boss fights, the secret labs in Gas City, numerous MR Tests, and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. 

Since I haven't spent much time forum warrioring, I'm gonna have to respond in numbered paragraphs rather than direct snips, so bear with:

1. I do not agree with you here. Take Minecraft as the best example here; plenty of people play exclusively in Creative mode to build stunning redstone computers, massive city/landscapes or fantastical statues. There is no Dev-based challenge here, yet it is still a moderately popular passtime, and back when things like pistons and slime blocks were added many people were making and/or uploading content of it. Games like Factorio and its 3D clone Factorisation follow similar principles. And if Devs want to put rewards like achievements or PURELY cosmetic items behind challenges; hey, I'm all for it.
2. Like it or not, power fantasy is a large part of the draw of this game; despite DE's stated early goal of making Left 4 Dead in space, this game has far outlasted it in part due to the fact that the player is just so hilariously powerful compared to the hordes and even special enemies (yes I am aware that actually having a configurable loadout beyond which weapon was lying around in the level and the ability to use, well, abilities also contribute). The same draw is used by the Destiny franchise, the DOOM franchise and was attempted with Anthem (which was a fun game, but too limited by EA to survive), to name but a few.
3. Me personally: dyspraxia so bad I cannot touch-type or use a controller; in fact I can barely write any better than a kindergartener and could legally use spell-check disabled PCs in every exam. And why stick with Warframe? Because 99.9% of the time I can focus on moving, then focus on shooting.
4. You got me there; I really should have said 'most people' rather than everyone. My bad on that one; but in general people do tend to stick mostly within a genre or two.
5. Ignoring the first half, because I'm obviously not gonna think I was being overdramatic, so we'll agree to disagree there, most of the stuff you have mentioned is within co-operative missions, so I can just rely on other people to get it done.

• The Lua Spy Vault with the wall-latch platforms I straight up leave for other people, the Ascension Hall (assuming you mean the Agility Test) I Operator-dash up to the balcony then worry about shooting the buttons so the person doing the pipes can concentrate on those
• I am not aware of any platform-based boss fight beyond the Ropalolyst, where again Operator-dashing is an option, as is Ivara
• Ivara and Operator dash again come in for the Gas City Secrets, or just letting someone else crack them first
• Mastery Rank 8 isn't timed, so I could do it slowly and carefully
• Mastery Rank 10 involved a Zephyr and a Torid, so I could spend as much time in the air as possible whilst poison mines dealt with the enemies, though I hear Razorwing is a better cheese tactic. Test 11 is very similar, as is Test 13, and were solved in similar ways, swapping the Torid for a Latron
• Mastery Rank 23 and 26 Tests involved a max duration Invisibility Loki
• Mastery Rank 27 Test was a Sporyn: I focused on movement whilst the spores did the killing

For every Mastery Test you can optimise gear; for every normal mission you can get a squad member to do it or use Operator dashes.

[IainG10]

6 hours ago, wtrmlnjuc said:

Okay, so you built out your gear and then what? The boss either becomes steamrolled or it's a bullet sponge aka a bore. You need real skill-based difficulty somewhere in the equation. This is one of the few times in Warframe your tactical skill and reflexes are tested, which is real difficulty.

Yup; all that skill-based difficulty of the boss doing nothing but teleport-melee combos for minutes at a time rather than throwing a single crystal at you, or the crystal immediately detonating on the platfrom rather than creating a collectable item, or deciding to use that overhead smash melee rather than the sweep, so even if you dodge it you lose platforms... If he had a more predictable move pattern (like sweep-sweep-smash-throw-throw or something) you could call it skill-based; but when he can remove almost 1/6th of the platforms on his first attack (yes I had this happen to me), and his teleport destination is completely random, it's still highly luck-based.

[(NSW)235714]

I don't think DE understands the concept of difficulty, like if enemies are stronger but they still do the same exact things, right, the only way to make things hard is to make enmies feel like they are actually alive, not just artificial drones that hit and run.

[Teljaxx]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And yet, people do that with all sorts of games every day. They set themselves unusual challenges outside of the game's design, like speedrunning, or no deaths, or speedrunning with no deaths. 

Here are a couple of youtube videos to drive the point home, showing that people attempt all sorts of challenges that the desingers never intended:

Can You Beat Super Mario World With Only Spin Jumps?

VG Myths - Can You Beat Super Mario Odyssey Without Jumping?

“A Button Challenge,” which requires players to beat a level with as few A button presses as possible.

People take these sorts of self-inflicted limitations seriously, the fact that you do not, doesn't invalidate the challenges, or the fact that pulling them off is quite impressive. The fact that you seem to expect to be rewarded at all times, probably says more about your own personality, than anything else, don't you think? DE needs to build for the majority of players, to balance based on both the large casual base and the relatively small number of "endgamers". If people insist on an ever greater challenge, they can easily create it themselves, and many people already do. Just take a look at the obstacle courses people spend time creating in their dojos. 🤷‍♂️

 

There is a key difference between Warframe, and your examples. You don't have to play Mario without jumping for it to be fun at all, because his jump isn't so overpowered that it breaks the game. If hitting the jump button even once instantly teleported you to the flagpole and beat the level, then you might be right. But the reason people come up with those challenges is because they have beaten the game normally hundreds of times, and are looking for a new way to make it fresh again, not because the game is so broken that ignoring huge parts of it is the only way to have fun.

Limiting yourself in Warframe isn't just for bored veterans, its necessary to make up for DE's blatant disregard for balancing. A more accurate example would be like if Doom automatically started you with all cheatcodes enabled, and you had to manually disable them at the start of each level to play the game with any semblance of challenge.

Just because there is a way for us players to fix the problem, doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Its like saying the loose lugnuts on your car's wheels are nothing to worry about, because you can just grab a wrench and tighten them yourself. Even so, they never should have been loose in the first place. And in Warframe, weapons shouldn't be able to go from 300 DPS without to 300 MILLION DPS with mods. It doesn't matter that you don't have to go that far if you don't want to. You shouldn't be able to at all. Because even if some people ignore it, there are still consequences you can't ignore. Like bossfights that ignore all the core elements that make the game fun in the first place.

And, since you mentioned it, this says quite a bit about your personality. You would much rather have everyone join you in your cozy cave of blissful ignorance, than actually do anything to fix a simple problem. And you value your ignorance so much, that you are willing to put far more energy into stopping the people that are trying to fix the problem than they are. People like you are the reason the entire video game industry is such a garbage fire these days. You'd much rather everyone just shut up and eat the crap their served, than do anything to try and make it even the smallest bit better. Its sad, really.

[dayvekeem]

On 2020-10-28 at 7:11 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That's because you are interested in playing, as opposed to just cheesing by following the meta. Take a good look at the complaints the OP is making. The fight is breaking their illusion of power that depends purely on the build, and using it. Instead, it's asking them to rely on actual ability, ability to move, follow what's going on around them and complete the objectives, without the added bonuses that the gear gives. 

Apparently that's a problem. 🤷‍♂️

I beat it on my second try. (God, you forced my humble brag card...) The pattern isn't that hard if you play Soulsborne games etc...

But I play Warframe to be a powerful space ninja that destroys everything in my path. Not to throw poop-shaped glass at giant bald guys... It just felt wrong "throwing" things at an uber-boss... is that so wrong?

I can do parkour in any mode in the game. Why make it the focus of this important event?

[Ermiq]

42 минуты назад, dayvekeem сказал:

to be a powerful space ninja that destroys everything in my path

It always baffles me how people made this "space ninja" phrase a synonim of a "god-like nuke BFG AoE terminator 3000".

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

On 2020-10-27 at 4:29 PM, SenorClipClop said:

From the start, we progress and collect to grow stronger, so we can take on tougher challenges until we can beat the toughest stuff in the game. But Warframe's player-side power progression keeps going higher even after you hit that point where enemy intensity kinda just levels off (or rewards nothing extra). Once we hit that point, any further power you gain isn't giving you access to tougher stuff (because there is no tougher stuff), your added power is just making the game easier and easier. The issue few like to look at is that in the current state of Warframe, a long-time enough player is too powerful to be challenged by anything the system can throw their way without taking some of their power off the table.

If the Nihil fight allowed us to bring in our abilities and arsenal as we would against a classic Warframe boss, I guarantee it would be a giant snooze for any player who decided to use:

• Mesa
• Chroma
• Buffer Volt
• the Dragon Key/ Shieldgate loop
• any frame that can turn invisible
• Exodia Contagion
• and many more...

Powercreep has more-or-less defeated the core progression system of Warframe. Late-game players can't really face any difficulty unless our power is limited, a la the Glassmaker fight, the Grendel missions, etc. In these cases, the game gives up on challenging our unbeatable arsenals and instead challenges the player. Sure a Lvl 30 Defense is an utter cakewalk to an MR28... but could you do it without 

 

 

Uh I'm gonna go ahead and disagree for 200 alex!

U design bosses to negate percentages instead of turning my powers off.

Put damage caps, time gates, wind ups and attack tells all mixed together to be something called formidable.

Not cheap invisibility and invincibility tactics! 

Poor thoughts manifest poor resolve!

[nerfinator6]

Nihil's fight is an example of real difficulty, since you need to you know, actually dodge and not just sit there invulnerable with your kuva nukor and your mesa prime.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

On 2020-10-28 at 2:41 AM, dayvekeem said:

This latest boss fight against Nihil is another in a long list of examples of how NOT to do difficulty.

Players spend all this time building their mods, frames... carefully tweaking formulas to create an optimal build... hundreds if not thousands of hours spent refining our frames...

And ALL of that is thrown out the window every... single... time... a new boss fight comes out.

This might as well be called "Puzzle Frame" because as it is, we are grinding our amazing gear so that we can... NOT use our gear during some of the most iconic and important fights?

I get it, balance issues and all that... but that's not a ME problem... that's a DE problem...

I absolutely loathe this trend in games where the difficulty is ARTIFICIALLY inflated by basically taking away EVERYTHING the player has WORKED FOR!!!

 

It's a cop-out... a cop-out from wanting to create a fun fight (Nihil is NOT fun, it's repetitive and boring and feels like a MOBILE GAME like Subway Surfers or Temple Run) by using FAKE difficulty (taking all player earned gear away) instead of REAL difficulty.

 

There. My 2c. 

 

This is just an opinion btw. I love this game dearly, if I didn't, I wouldn't care to share my opinion on it.

Couldn't agree more it was honestly the most boring fight yet. As someone who loves the DS, BB and GOW type games cmon DE!. I see what you went for but how did you ever think it would work for Warframe...

Sometimes i question how much time you lads play your game every week even after all these years lads. Love if your gonna take a page from GOW but do it right and don't forget Warframes lol.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

1 minute ago, nerfinator6 said:

Nihil's fight is an example of real difficulty, since you need to you know, actually dodge and not just sit there invulnerable with your kuva nukor and your mesa prime.

Nihil is not difficult, please do not say that. Any gamer worth half their stone can stand there while he telegraphs a veeeery slow sideways slash and a veeeeery slow downwards thrust. While picking up shards and throwing them.

DE can do better than this and shouldn't forget about their own game (Warframes, weapons, heck amps).

I don't wish to disregard anyone here but we can't let this be the wave of bosses to come.