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il y a 53 minutes, DrivaMain a dit :

Ah yes, the amount of nerf request in this thread just showed me that Warframe Players do not like being challenged. It’s kinda sad. Players only want to get that new shiny as fast as possible nowadays.
 

 

Take the Warframe Playerbase as a whole and try to think as to why people are playing it in the first place: for the shinies or to get challenged?... For the shinies of course. Duh.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Warframe is known to be a game about looty stuff (and shooty things), not one about challenge; I think it's pretty obvious. If you, as a player, want difficulty/challenge first, then go play something else, as WF isn't that.

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59 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Ah yes, the amount of nerf request in this thread just showed me that Warframe Players do not like being challenged. It’s kinda sad. Players only want to get that new shiny as fast as possible nowadays.
 

 

Its absolutely laughable. Upset that they have to use movement. In Warframe. Game built on acrobatic movement.

Christ.

Next up, why Cuphead sucks because i cant just run right and fire.

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14 часов назад, Megalomaniakaal сказал:

I didn't expect having to remember elements of previous investigations that i had done a long ass time ago.

Just completed the fight, and now i'm confused.
What are you talking? Did i miss something?

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The fight mechanics themselves weren't bad, but the throwing physics of the glass bombs, and the trajectories was very unlike any of the other throwing weapons, thermia capsules, necramech bombs, or other items in the game. So in that regard it made the fight feel rather non-intuitive. That and when I needed glass bombs to throw at nihil, he would just shoot them over my head, into the ether, then destroyed all the platforms.  I'll wrap the fight tomorrow for sure, as I am well and truly out of energy for it, this late at night. The artists deserve much credit, the dialogue is good, but the mechanics and reliability of acquiring what you need, aka the glass bombs, and using them at a range beyond a few meters, given that they seem to arc higher than they travel distance wise, just kinda feels.. wonky.. rather than challenging. 

The glass bombs slowing us down? No problem, nice mechanic. 1 or 2 strikes to down the tenno, also okay, as is the gradually destroyed arena. But leaving the success of the fight up to RNG, and whether or not we are even given the items needed to combat the boss, instead of them sailing off into the weave.. That is frustrating. I tried standing at the very front edge of the platforms, closest to nihil, and still the glass bombs he lobbed would miss the platforms entirely for a period of a few mins, during which he also smote all the remaining platforms.

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15 minutes ago, C0stanza said:

Take the Warframe Playerbase as a whole and try to think as to why people are playing it in the first place: for the shinies or to get challenged?... For the shinies of course. Duh.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Warframe is known to be a game about looty stuff (and shooty things), not one about challenge; I think it's pretty obvious. If you, as a player, want difficulty/challenge first, then go play something else, as WF isn't that.

Yes difficulty in Warframe is impossible. But can we have content where we don't have to sit one spot and spam that same nuke button over and over and over again? 

Edited by DrivaMain
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3 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Just completed the fight, and now i'm confused.
What are you talking? Did i miss something?

If you weren't just spamming it at the crystals but actually trying to find the correct crystal to hit(to break the shield gate/invincibility phase) you had to recognize the correct symbol in the floating crystal. Also pretty sure that hitting the wrong one costs you a tile/segment of a platform.

Edited by Megalomaniakaal
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3 minutes ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

If you weren't just spamming it at the crystals but actually trying to find the correct crystal to hit(to break the shield gate/invincibility phase) you had to recognize the correct symbol in the floating crystal. Also pretty sure that hitting the wrong one costs you a tile/segment of a platform.

I just throw the crystal fragment at the floating crystal with images at random order. I progressed through the fight just fine. Nihil actually destroys the platform whenever he feels like it or aka when the boss AI chooses the "Destroy Tile" behavior.

Edited by DrivaMain
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12 minutes ago, LoneDirewolf said:

Its absolutely laughable. Upset that they have to use movement. In Warframe. Game built on acrobatic movement.

Christ.

Next up, why Cuphead sucks because i cant just run right and fire.

I mean you may be an expert at parkour but not everyone else is. I know my hand eye coordination sucks pretty bad. My situational awareness is the absolute worse. It's why I don't have a driver's license.

 

That said I've failed the fight three times now and haven't retried (though it's a good fight and I will!) and my main issue was running out of platforms to stand on. I didn't know what to do the first time, so I checked out a video by Quite Shallow and went from there.

 

The issue with the glass thrown being hurled into an upward arc when I try to throw it at the crystals has been a pita, I feel like I have to be on top of the crystals to be able break them with it. So usually, I get his health revealed with only a few tiny places left to parkour around. Unfortunately, this doesn't give me much leeway with getting more glass to take down his health.

 

From what people are saying do you have to break them in a specific order? Because that would explain a lot.

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1 минуту назад, Megalomaniakaal сказал:

If you weren't just spamming it at the crystals but actually trying to find the correct crystal to hit(to break the shield gate/invincibility phase) you had to recognize the correct symbol in the floating crystal. Also pretty sure that hitting the wrong one costs you a tile/segment of a platform.

Oh, well, i guess it didn't matter then, i tried to find the "correct" crystals, but every time, except the first i had to break all of the crystals before being able to damage Nihil.
So it seems there is some bugs after all.

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30 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Yes difficulty in Warframe is impossible. But can we have content where we don't have to sit one spot and spam that same nuke button over and over and over again? 

Can we have reduce grind then? Cause why should people not bother to bring afk nuke frames if the rewards suck so much. Blame DE on making everything in the game damage based.

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35 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Oh, well, i guess it didn't matter then, i tried to find the "correct" crystals, but every time, except the first i had to break all of the crystals before being able to damage Nihil.
So it seems there is some bugs after all.

To be clear though, while I might seem a bit critical of the crystals, I didn't particularly mind the fight. I like the parkouring in the game and playing with kb and mouse I find it easy enough, though having tried to play with a game-pad during railjack release parkouring was definitely significantly worse with that(probably in part because I'm not used to playing with a game-pad tho).

 

But the main issue with the crystals for me was that their orbit was a little too far out, I just wish they were closer in towards Nihil so you could get a good view of all of them at once. That's all. Well that and if the investigations hadn't been so far apart in time or the cephalite cap had become expanded with each investigation so it would have been effectively cheap to go back through all of them as a refresher before going into the final fight.

 

With all of that said, it occurs to me now though that after completing them the investigations might have been free to revisit anyways tho, didn't think to check. In the end it only took me 2 tries to defeat Nihil and if I were to play it again I'd expect to beat it in one try now. Didn't help I played it right before going to sleep so I was already pretty tired too.

Edited by Megalomaniakaal
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38 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Oh, well, i guess it didn't matter then, i tried to find the "correct" crystals, but every time, except the first i had to break all of the crystals before being able to damage Nihil.
So it seems there is some bugs after all.

Oh no, not a bug. You had to have SOME mediocrity of attention there: some crystals had thing that had nothing to do with the previous dudes. Like, there was one with a Dakra Prime inside and breaking it did jack.

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I didn't bother checking the crystal icons for 'correct' ones because I thought he was triggering dialogue snippets for each one broken, so I just broke all of them until damage phase.

Got sworded a few times due to lazy misplay but the fight was one and done.

 

Once Nihil starts teleporting around in the second phase, you can generally coerce him to throwing stuff at you by just being on the opposite side of the arena to him.

AI won't sword at you if you weren't acquired as a target in sword range when it picks its next move, it'll either shoot you or teleport.

If he teleports closer instead of shooting, re-establish your distance.

Look at him and aim, use side-dodges to avoid the shots. They're snippy and you don't have to worry about rolling off the platform on your axis relative to Nihil/where the shots can land, just stick to one side of a tile and dodge across.

 

Also, if you're having difficulties with arena desctruction: if you get dropped, your respawn platform is a free extra tile. Hang around up there, see if you get shot or if he comes a-swording.

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This fight was kinda fun for me. I didn't find it too tough. I did die a few times figuring it out, but once I got it I beat him on my first try. It was a little difficult to be able to grab the glass shards and get close enough too toss them and hit him - pretty sure that was intentional and part of the fight. I liked not having to rely on abilities and the fight becoming "use this frame and cheese it".

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1 hour ago, kevoisvevo said:

Can we have reduce grind then? Cause why should people not bother to bring afk nuke frames if the rewards suck so much. Blame DE on making everything in the game damage based.

Ah yes that too. Don’t worry enough whining and/or getting someone like Jim Sterling to cover it will be swiftly responded by DE.

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7 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Hm, I wasn't expecting people to complain about having to use your warframe jumping skills to beat a boss. I mean you use jump, double jump, bullet jump all the time right? right? am I wrong here? Do most people just walk from a to b and wonder how they will ever get across a large hole in the ground? A lot of the games puzzles and such (Lua) require you to be at least not retarded when it comes to platforming. This boss is extremely easy when it comes to platforming. All you need to do is remember he has three moves and how to dodge them. It's really that simple. Granted the first time he instakilled me I was like wtf is this S#&$. But yea the animation is extremely telegraphed and the jumping part is 100% forgiving. You don't eve die falling off a platform. You can keep going!

I use mobility to get from A to B; I almost NEVER use it in fights. And I avoid Lua Spy like the #*!%ing plague, because I hate that Wall Latch room. If I do have to to it (and I will just not do a Sortie if Lua Spy is there), then I do the other 2 rooms first, then just autofail that one if I can; and if I cannot skip it and need all 3 vaults, I can go in solo and cheese it with Ivara. Whilst I am very good at the hacking minigames, there are people who aren't and they have Ciphers; you don't see me telling them to just 'git gud' and remove Ciphers from the game. The Grendel missions were annoying without mods, but there we still had the choice to use whatever playstyle suited us: spray and pray, shotgun to the face, whirlwind of death melee etc; it's still Warframe.

I've now completed this fight; it was on the third try, and I STILL think this fight is a mistake. Do you want to know how many platform tiles I had left at the end of attempt one? 3 tiles; not 3 platforms, just 3 scattered individual triangular tiles. At which point 9 times out of 10, if he shot a crystal at me it went sailing into the abyss. If it landed on a tile by some miracle, but that tile was on the opposite side of the arena to the floating Memory Crystal in the invuln phase, well, that's not getting hit.

In attempt two, his very first attack was the overhead smash (which I dodged), and that destroyed every single tile of the platform with the exception of the 2 back corners; almost 1/6th of the arena gone in a single attack in the first 3 seconds of the fight, with no way to get it back. Some of the crystals he shot at me detonated on impact, removing the tile under them immediately. At least twice he teleported out of the arc of a crystal I threw back at him after I'd thrown it. Across all fights there were entire 30s plus stretches where he just teleported around and used his sword rather than throwing crystals, leaving me jumping around from platform to platform like an extremely bored fruit fly. I don't even want to think about what this fight is like with lag.

For anyone still struggling, here's how I managed it:

  • Do a S#&$ty little glitch dance at the front of a platform by strafing left and right alternating as fast as you can.
  • If he teleports into melee range IMMEDIATELY go elsewhere
  • In the invuln phase move to stay within 2 platform tiles of the Memory Crystal he's tied to
  • Memory Crystal order for me stayed the same between fights, and was Grineer (stuffed animal toy), Corpus (helmet) and Ostron (Ostron logo)
  • Only throw crystals back at him when you're just outside melee range; if he's too far away just throw them into the abyss
  • Try to pick up as many crystals as you can before they detonate and take a tile with them; you lose enough tiles as it is to his overhead smash

The responses to this fight have been incredibly predictable; all the people who like things like Cuphead or Souls-likes saying it's fine and eveyone else should just get better, and all the people who play Warframe as a casual game to relax hating it. To all of the former (because I fall into the latter): people who want to relax don't play those kind of games, where you are expected to just bash your head against hard fights until you get through them, and even in those games, I doubt they make you farm up an entry ticket, replay a memory game and then sit through a minute of unskippable dialogue every time. How nice for you that you all found it so easy; but maybe spare a thought for people who are bad at platformers or Souls-likes. In Warframe we have always had ways to increase the difficulty if we want to; they may not be programmed in, but we could always challenge ourselves to not use mods, not use abilities, go melee only etc. Where is the option to go the other way here?

And even if you do like this fight, enforcing hitherto optional parts of the game on players if they want a piece of content is a dangerous precedent to set. Maybe the next Nightwave reward will be a shotgun, carried by some Corpus dude who retreats to a new safe room every phase, and to unlock each one you have to solve a sudoku in under 3 minutes. It would be fair game by standards I've seen in this thread; solving puzzles within time limits to get through doors is found in Warframe already....

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12 minutes ago, IainG10 said:

In attempt two, his very first attack was the overhead smash (which I dodged), and that destroyed every single tile of the platform with the exception of the 2 back corners; almost 1/6th of the arena gone in a single attack in the first 3 seconds of the fight, with no way to get it back. Some of the crystals he shot at me detonated on impact, removing the tile under them immediately. At least twice he teleported out of the arc of a crystal I threw back at him after I'd thrown it. Across all fights there were entire 30s plus stretches where he just teleported around and used his sword rather than throwing crystals, leaving me jumping around from platform to platform like an extremely bored fruit fly. I don't even want to think about what this fight is like with lag.

An interesting thought appears, what if instead of disappearing the tiles became fractured so you can't stand on them but if you manage to pick up a glass shard and thow it at one it fixed it? That would have been pretty cool.

 

12 minutes ago, IainG10 said:

and to unlock each one you have to solve a sudoku in under 3 minutes

 

That...actually sounds pretty fun to me as a one off...

Edited by Megalomaniakaal
typo
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1 minute ago, Megalomaniakaal said:

An interesting thought appears, what if instead of disappearing the tiles became fractured so you can't stand on them but if you manage to pick up a glass shard and thow it at one it fixed it? That would have been pretty cool.

There are numerous ways this fight could be fixed:

  • Throw shards at platform tiles to generate an additional tile on each side
  • Have him aim at your feet instead of your head so when you dodge the crystal doesn't sail into #*!%ing nowhere
  • Have a lock on mechanic for the crstals you throw at the Memory fragments in the invuln phase
  • Have some sort of counter that forces him to change up his attacks (what is referred to as 'bad luck protection' in other games; every time result A happens, result A's chances are lowered for the next roll)
  • Have an indistructable 'core' tile for each plaform; ok, you may be redused to 6 fairly far apart tiles if you go too long, but the fight never becomes completely impossible
  • After your first attempt, being able to go straight to the fight rather than having to load into the Clue Scene, walk through tar to the statue, listen to dialogue, do a 5 step memory game, listen to more dialogue, then finally be able to 'fight' the boss (it can still cost Cephalite per attempt, but let us get there quicker on retries)

And that's just what I, an ameteur gamer, thought up in the time it took to type out.

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15 minutes ago, IainG10 said:

I use mobility to get from A to B; I almost NEVER use it in fights. And I avoid Lua Spy like the #*!%ing plague, because I hate that Wall Latch room. If I do have to to it (and I will just not do a Sortie if Lua Spy is there), then I do the other 2 rooms first, then just autofail that one if I can; and if I cannot skip it and need all 3 vaults, I can go in solo and cheese it with Ivara. Whilst I am very good at the hacking minigames, there are people who aren't and they have Ciphers; you don't see me telling them to just 'git gud' and remove Ciphers from the game. The Grendel missions were annoying without mods, but there we still had the choice to use whatever playstyle suited us: spray and pray, shotgun to the face, whirlwind of death melee etc; it's still Warframe.

I've now completed this fight; it was on the third try, and I STILL think this fight is a mistake. Do you want to know how many platform tiles I had left at the end of attempt one? 3 tiles; not 3 platforms, just 3 scattered individual triangular tiles. At which point 9 times out of 10, if he shot a crystal at me it went sailing into the abyss. If it landed on a tile by some miracle, but that tile was on the opposite side of the arena to the floating Memory Crystal in the invuln phase, well, that's not getting hit.

In attempt two, his very first attack was the overhead smash (which I dodged), and that destroyed every single tile of the platform with the exception of the 2 back corners; almost 1/6th of the arena gone in a single attack in the first 3 seconds of the fight, with no way to get it back. Some of the crystals he shot at me detonated on impact, removing the tile under them immediately. At least twice he teleported out of the arc of a crystal I threw back at him after I'd thrown it. Across all fights there were entire 30s plus stretches where he just teleported around and used his sword rather than throwing crystals, leaving me jumping around from platform to platform like an extremely bored fruit fly. I don't even want to think about what this fight is like with lag.

For anyone still struggling, here's how I managed it:

  • Do a S#&$ty little glitch dance at the front of a platform by strafing left and right alternating as fast as you can.
  • If he teleports into melee range IMMEDIATELY go elsewhere
  • In the invuln phase move to stay within 2 platform tiles of the Memory Crystal he's tied to
  • Memory Crystal order for me stayed the same between fights, and was Grineer (stuffed animal toy), Corpus (helmet) and Ostron (Ostron logo)
  • Only throw crystals back at him when you're just outside melee range; if he's too far away just throw them into the abyss
  • Try to pick up as many crystals as you can before they detonate and take a tile with them; you lose enough tiles as it is to his overhead smash

The responses to this fight have been incredibly predictable; all the people who like things like Cuphead or Souls-likes saying it's fine and eveyone else should just get better, and all the people who play Warframe as a casual game to relax hating it. To all of the former (because I fall into the latter): people who want to relax don't play those kind of games, where you are expected to just bash your head against hard fights until you get through them, and even in those games, I doubt they make you farm up an entry ticket, replay a memory game and then sit through a minute of unskippable dialogue every time. How nice for you that you all found it so easy; but maybe spare a thought for people who are bad at platformers or Souls-likes. In Warframe we have always had ways to increase the difficulty if we want to; they may not be programmed in, but we could always challenge ourselves to not use mods, not use abilities, go melee only etc. Where is the option to go the other way here?

And even if you do like this fight, enforcing hitherto optional parts of the game on players if they want a piece of content is a dangerous precedent to set. Maybe the next Nightwave reward will be a shotgun, carried by some Corpus dude who retreats to a new safe room every phase, and to unlock each one you have to solve a sudoku in under 3 minutes. It would be fair game by standards I've seen in this thread; solving puzzles within time limits to get through doors is found in Warframe already....

Well you're making a lot of assumptions. I dislike platforming games. Hell I suck at them because I'm old and I have to use a controller because of my RSI. This fight however? The complaints are invalid because they come from people that tried it once and failed (as did I). But the platforms are huge and everything is telegraphed. Honestly the jumping platform shooty mastery test was harder than this. Octavia's Anthom's quest was harder than this. Ropolalyst is harde than this. Name almost any jumping puzzle quest thingy in this game (there's a metric ton of them) and they are harder than this. Stop whining about it. This fight is extremely easy once you know how to.

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15 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Because DE allowed power creep to get so hilariously out of hand that a boss fight which would be very slightly challenging to an advanced player would automatically just lock low level players out completely.

Not guaranteed. They could very well make it a mixed encounter. Weaker players could rely on the current system which requires no gear at all, veteran players could make use of their guns with the boss tuned much like lephantis and others with a damage cap. That way players at both ends of the scale could finish it, but we who have gear would be rewarded for having that gear by being able to ignore waiting for rocks during the actual damage phase. We'd be able to attack him even when he's teleporting around smashing platforms with his sword.

And adding in simple mechanics like shooting random stuff to get more platforms etc. would work no matter where a player is at in progression, since the game gives us 3 basic weapons at start.

They should have invested alot more in the fight instead of releasing it with zero of your progression being rewarded aswell as filled with the most vile cheese. Never before has a bottomless abyss been so appealing, except for maybe Ginnungagap at the creation of the universe.

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13 hours ago, Kraethius said:

Remind me to redirect people into this thread whenever someone wants harder content. Apparently people want a challenge, but only the kind they can effortlessly overcome.

tumblr_inline_otwszsyaxG1sg06lu_1280.png

P.S: Thank you DE for what I feel is one of the best boss fights so far. Loving the direction you're going in, especially the cinematic-feeling grandeur entrances/reveals.

13 hours ago, celesari said:

In my opinion, DE has made the worst bossfight of the game.

Someone clearly forgot about the Ropalolyst. And the Profit-Taker. Also the Vor and Kril combo fight where you're waiting around doing fk all. And the Sergeant... and--

Yeah, sorry, but your opinion is a dumb one imo. With Nihil you're constantly engaged at all times. And to the people saying 'but muh guns/warframe isn't a platformer' what game have you been playing? Did y'all forget that parkour/platforming has been a part of this game since 2013? Or...

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42 minutes ago, IainG10 said:

The Grendel missions were annoying without mods, but there we still had the choice to use whatever playstyle suited us: spray and pray with a Super Soaker, shotgun wet noodle to the face, whirlwind of death paper cuts melee etc; it's still Warframe.

(corrections mine)

With no mods against L40 corpus, that shotgun of yours is going to be as effective as walking up to them and slapping them. The only way I managed was Revenant (for contagious mind control, take the enemies' attention away from the cryopod, excavators and myself for the lowest energy drain per unit time) and spamming rapier charge attacks (for the guaranteed slash proc) - and that's useless now because slash no longer bypasses shields. And even that didn't work properly, because enemies pretty much stopped spawning half-way through the excavation mission and I had to spawn individual excavators and let the one or two remaining moas kill them to make up for the complete absence of batteries.

The nihil fight itself? I actually managed it first time, though I did spend 3 revives due to not dodging the glass properly (and if you do get glassed, bullet jump upwards and slightly to the side; I was able to dodge the incoming sword strike by doing that). I spent 2-3x as long trying to find these stupid invisible clues as I did on the fight.

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Remember the Cunning Test from Lua or Second Dream?

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Orokin_Moon/Cunning_Test

The Nihil boss fight is just a variant of that with the difference being that you don't kill the security eye in Cunning Test. But it's same overall principle... you have a boss (security eye) that can one shot Operator with its lasers. You need to bait the security eye to shoot some Void tree roots that are partially exposed in 4 pillars (i.e. similar to the crystal projectiles in Nihil). The security eye can periodically lace the map with toxic black stuff that kills the Operator (i.e. similar to Nihil's ability to destroy floating tiles). The security eye can also do a pull attack where the Operator is pulled toward the security eye. Lastly, you use Operator's movement abilities to bait this (i.e. this is the same as parkour for Warframes in this boss fight).

The way I see it, these are mostly the same concept. Though, without use of Warframe abilities or weapons, it's also not Warframe.

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3 hours ago, Dante said:
  • The bossfight had 0 bugs (or maybe i just got lucky)

Nothing to praise here though, a boss with 3 moves that took 6? months to develop can't bug if you have a team of at least 2 people with at least one screen

36 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Yeah, sorry, but your opinion is a dumb one imo. With Nihil you're constantly engaged at all times. And to the people saying 'but muh guns/warframe isn't a platformer' what game have you been playing? Did y'all forget that parkour/platforming has been a part of this game since 2013? Or...

Erm did we do the same encounter ? Nihil was so slow that even when I brainlagged/slept a bit due to how boring this fight is and consequently got slowed by the projectiles, I still had plenty of time to go out of the cleaves even without bullet jumps.

There is nothing engaging about this fight. There are even moments where you look at Nihil, he looks at you and do nothing. Then he teleports and 15 seconds later his blade hits the glass platform. *yawns*

Profit Taker or even Jackal that I despise keep you engaged as there are plenty of things to do. For Nihil, you just... wait, jump and basket-ball free throw him his projectile back to him (why does it even damage him ? no idea).

Just because Parkour is a complete part of the game since the beginning doesn't mean an encounter of jumpy jumpy is fun and engaging. If for next boss, the only thing you can do is crawl and then kill him with an emote, it won't be fun, despite those two "activities" being an entire part of the game too.

Edited by Chewarette
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