Uncorrupting Corrupted Warframes Idea

[RamPuppy]

DE, 

Sorry if something like this has been suggested already.  Figured it might be a good time to bring it up w/ Nidus, Harrow, Revenant, and Xaku getting closer in the prime rotation. 

We know that each of these frames (plus Valkyr) either has an origin outside of the typical (Ballas Creation) or that at some point they were altered or corrupted by their experiences. 

Lore Spoilers if you haven't done the quests for these frames:

Spoiler

Valkyr - Tortured and warped by the Corpus
Nidus - Created or Altered by the Myconian Infestation
Harrow - was unknown to the Lotus
Revenant - Corrupted by the Eidolon (Previously "The Warden")
Xaku - Created by the Entrati from broken/Lost Frames

So - here is the thought. 

When you drop the prime variants of these frames - you do it like every other prime variant - i.e. Nidus is still Nidus.  (Note - Harrow & Xaku do not exactly fit well w/ this idea) You could mix it up but generally hand wave it away the fact that were building a Prime version of a frame that did not exist THIS WAY as a Prime by having Ordis say something like "The blueprints are incomplete, but we can extrapolate the differences utilizing the blueprints from the corrupted form" or some such jazz...   Thus - you get to build the Prime variant of the corrupted frame w/o breaking lore.

The real idea though - the bonus points that could make things extremely interesting and (blatant pandering here) the community love you guys even more - would be walking that freshly built frame into the Helmenth room and having the Walnut tell you 'it's wrong... can fix it' - so you sit it down in the chair and Helmenth 'un-corrupts the frame'  Resulting in a new frame PRIME Frame that would be...

Valkyr - Pre-torture - w/ powers/stats/persona that are not based on rage
Nidus - an un-infested Nidus whatever his original powers might have been (assuming there was an original)
Revenant - Warden Prime
  - for those three - no Non Prime Frames should be released (for the uncorrupted forms)

Harrow - probably don't need to do anything since were really only dealing w/ the Lotus not knowing about him. So secret project or something - hand wave it away. 
Xaku - Parts is Parts!  Would be cool if someday we could have more quests that would allow Helmenth to transform a Xaku Frame into 1 of the original frames. 
 

[EmberStar]

Why does everyone somehow think Nidus Prime breaks lore?  *All* Warframes are based on controlled Infestation.  We've had hints about that forever - nearly every single one of the Infested bosses has dialogue where they remark on the kinship between Warframes and Infested.  (Either they're confused that what they sense as another Infested is attacking them at all, like Phorid, or they're aware of the connection and have decided that the Warframe's *individuality* is the problem like the Zealoid Prelate.)

Nidus Prime would just be an Orokin experiment with toning down the "controlled" aspect of the Infested nature present in every Warframe.

The issue with Harrow isn't whether or not Harrow has a Prime version.  The weird bit there is that according to the story, Rell was rejected by Marguilis and never included in her original attempts at using Transference as a form of therapy to allow Tenno to interact with normal people without vaporizing them with uncontrolled blasts of Void energy.  In other words, the big unanswered question is *how* Rell got a Warframe at all, not whether or not Harrow has a Prime version.

For Valkyr, the ship already sailed.  The designer derped (and I think even admitted so later) and based her Prime on the flayed version without really thinking about the lore.  They aren't going to rework her, because if that was in the cards they would have done it right away.

Xaku doesn't have any lore that would prevent it - all we know is that Xaku is based on remnants of three Warframes that were apparently damaged or mostly destroyed in attampts to explore the Void.  There seems to be the assumption that Xaku assembled themself, but there's nothing to say that the Orokin didn't take the shards of damaged Void Scout frames and reforged them into a single new design.

Revenant is just kind of an issue all around - the backstory is that Gara had refused to enter cryo-sleep with the rest of the Tenno to remain with the Unum.  She died to destroy the monstrously mutated Sentient whose bones became the Eidolons.  And then somehow *another* Warframe that wasn't in cold sleep was appointed to guard the body.  And failed spectacularly, getting grabbed and used as an anchor for the Eidolons to pull themselves from whatever dimensional limbo they're trapped in and back into the real world.  Not much about his backstory makes sense to begin with, so his Prime version is just another layer of "meh" on the onion of "you really didn't think this through" his backstory is already overflowing with.

[Megalomaniakaal]

8 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

For Valkyr, the ship already sailed.  The designer derped (and I think even admitted so later) and based her Prime on the flayed version without really thinking about the lore.  They aren't going to rework her, because if that was in the cards they would have done it right away.

She just looks like a bat monster to me, so I don't really see the issue. Visually very different from the other one. *shrugs*

 

9 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Revenant is just kind of an issue all around - the backstory is that Gara had refused to enter cryo-sleep with the rest of the Tenno to remain with the Unum.  She died to destroy the monstrously mutated Sentient whose bones became the Eidolons.  And then somehow *another* Warframe that wasn't in cold sleep was appointed to guard the body.  And failed spectacularly, getting grabbed and used as an anchor for the Eidolons to pull themselves from whatever dimensional limbo they're trapped in and back into the real world.  Not much about his backstory makes sense to begin with, so his Prime version is just another layer of "meh" on the onion of "you really didn't think this through" his backstory is already overflowing with.

The prime variant would be a orokin design that was considered as something of a 'bit too much to send that one' probably.

 

TBH I don't really see a problem at all.

[RamPuppy]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Why does everyone somehow think Nidus Prime breaks lore?  *All* Warframes are based on controlled Infestation.  We've had hints about that forever - nearly every single one of the Infested bosses has dialogue where they remark on the kinship between Warframes and Infested.  (Either they're confused that what they sense as another Infested is attacking them at all, like Phorid, or they're aware of the connection and have decided that the Warframe's *individuality* is the problem like the Zealoid Prelate.)

Nidus Prime would just be an Orokin experiment with toning down the "controlled" aspect of the Infested nature present in every Warframe.

I think you misunderstand what I wrote.  

From the Wiki

Quote

Little is known about the history of the Nidus Warframe. However, the Myconian's relationship with the Infestation reveals that the Infested strain that created Nidus has helped them understand how to become immune to it, allowing them to harvest Infested flesh as part of their livelihood.

There are two interpretations possible to that.  Either the Myconian Infestation created Nidus out of whole cloth - or They took a frame that existed, and created a new warframe from it.  Since Nidus has a unique relationship w/ the Walnut that would back up that he is in fact quite different from other Warframes.  In one of those scenarios, there would be no Prime, in the other - a Prime is possible, and we know DE won't pass up the opportunity to make a new prime.  This allows them to reconcile the Lore, and deliver something new.  Not just a Prime, but a variant.  The only other 3rd possibility I can think of would be that the progenitor frame Nidus was created from is one that we already know. 
 

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

For Valkyr, the ship already sailed.  The designer derped (and I think even admitted so later) and based her Prime on the flayed version without really thinking about the lore.  They aren't going to rework her, because if that was in the cards they would have done it right away.

Again, I think you misunderstand, at least a little bit.  You would take an Unranked fresh built Valkyr into the Helmenth - and what the Helmenth gives back would no longer be the same Valkyr - but the frame Valkyr came from - not a rework at all - in essence it would be a new frame - most likely based in norse legend or something along those lines.  It would NOT involve a rework.  Yeah having two valkyr primes would be confusing - so we just give the new one a different name.  
 

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Xaku doesn't have any lore that would prevent it - all we know is that Xaku is based on remnants of three Warframes that were apparently damaged or mostly destroyed in attampts to explore the Void.  There seems to be the assumption that Xaku assembled themself, but there's nothing to say that the Orokin didn't take the shards of damaged Void Scout frames and reforged them into a single new design.

How Xaku was made is pretty much irrelevant to the conversation, as being a Chimera of different warframes, some of which could be frames we already know, it doesn't fit the same pattern as the others.  

 

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Revenant is just kind of an issue all around - the backstory is that Gara had refused to enter cryo-sleep with the rest of the Tenno to remain with the Unum.  She died to destroy the monstrously mutated Sentient whose bones became the Eidolons.  And then somehow *another* Warframe that wasn't in cold sleep was appointed to guard the body.  And failed spectacularly, getting grabbed and used as an anchor for the Eidolons to pull themselves from whatever dimensional limbo they're trapped in and back into the real world.  Not much about his backstory makes sense to begin with, so his Prime version is just another layer of "meh" on the onion of "you really didn't think this through" his backstory is already overflowing with.

None of this matters in the context of the conversation.  In fact it's quite the opposite - it's an opportunity for DE to smooth out and reconcile the Lore, I'm not even convinced it needs to do that here - but either way - it's an opportunity for them to bring in the Warden frame and expand the universe.   

I would submit also that it would potentially prevent expansion of the drop tables by taking these new primes completely out (the 'uncorrupted' ones) out of the drop tables for relics, as you would just need two relics for everything - 1 for the Prime, 1 for the uncorrupted prime. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

meh, I wouldn't worry about the lore when it coems to the prime frames, DE seems to have given up on that long ago: no codex entries, no Prime Trailers, nothing. it's just the original version of a frame, and you could safely assume the Orokin made gilded prototypes of each frame at the very least, if they didn't full-on mass produce them. 

[SilentMobius]

11 hours ago, RamPuppy said:

There are two interpretations possible to that.  Either the Myconian Infestation created Nidus out of whole cloth - or They took a frame that existed, and created a new warframe from it.

Or the more obvious third, Nidus is a warframe like any other, who's power focus is the Helminth infestation strain itself and the Myconians learnt secrets from the Helminth strain in Nidus, because the Helminth strain was somewhat "tamed" by the Orkin compared to anything else the post-collapse world had.

11 hours ago, RamPuppy said:

You would take an Unranked fresh built Valkyr into the Helmenth - and what the Helmenth gives back would no longer be the same Valkyr - but the frame Valkyr came from - not a rework at all - in essence it would be a new frame - most likely based in norse legend or something along those lines.  It would NOT involve a rework.  Yeah having two valkyr primes would be confusing - so we just give the new one a different name. 

Regardless of what DE were thinking at initial design time, Valkyr Prime exists with a trailer that has been through it's lore pass, and it is feral, that is the original Valkyr, there is no non-berserker Valkyr.

11 hours ago, RamPuppy said:

None of this matters in the context of the conversation.  In fact it's quite the opposite - it's an opportunity for DE to smooth out and reconcile the Lore, I'm not even convinced it needs to do that here - but either way - it's an opportunity for them to bring in the Warden frame and expand the universe.

DE do not want to make Primes with difdferent powers to their Tenno version. It causes too many problems and solves nothing, whatever you think the lore needs I assure you that it's possible to come up with a reason for all prime versions of Tenno Warframes to have the same powers.

[EmberStar]

3 hours ago, RamPuppy said:

I think you misunderstand what I wrote.  

From the Wiki

There are two interpretations possible to that.  Either the Myconian Infestation created Nidus out of whole cloth - or They took a frame that existed, and created a new warframe from it.  Since Nidus has a unique relationship w/ the Walnut that would back up that he is in fact quite different from other Warframes.  In one of those scenarios, there would be no Prime, in the other - a Prime is possible, and we know DE won't pass up the opportunity to make a new prime.  This allows them to reconcile the Lore, and deliver something new.  Not just a Prime, but a variant.  The only other 3rd possibility I can think of would be that the progenitor frame Nidus was created from is one that we already know. 
 

Again, I think you misunderstand, at least a little bit.  You would take an Unranked fresh built Valkyr into the Helmenth - and what the Helmenth gives back would no longer be the same Valkyr - but the frame Valkyr came from - not a rework at all - in essence it would be a new frame - most likely based in norse legend or something along those lines.  It would NOT involve a rework.  Yeah having two valkyr primes would be confusing - so we just give the new one a different name.  
 

How Xaku was made is pretty much irrelevant to the conversation, as being a Chimera of different warframes, some of which could be frames we already know, it doesn't fit the same pattern as the others.  

 

None of this matters in the context of the conversation.  In fact it's quite the opposite - it's an opportunity for DE to smooth out and reconcile the Lore, I'm not even convinced it needs to do that here - but either way - it's an opportunity for them to bring in the Warden frame and expand the universe.   
 

First, I assure you I didn't misunderstand anything, but thanks for talking down to me.  I love being patronized.

Second, there doesn't have to be anything special about the "kind of infestation" in Nidus *besides* him being a Warframe, and therefore made from a "domesticated" strain of Infestation.  He wasn't some other frame that got infested, nor was he changed.  The storyline literally referred to him as a damaged, Old War relic right up to the point where it was revealed that the thing everyone was fighting over was a damaged Warframe.  It was the chance to study the "tamed" infested tissue in the wrecked Warframe that let the Myconians make the breakthrough.  The fact that Nidus powers in particular relate to *controlling* Infestation probably also helped, or at least pointed them in the right direction.

For Valkyr, the lore is that the deluxe skin (Valkyr Gersemi) IS the production version of her original form.  When they went to make the Prime version the designer either didn't know that, or forgot, and directly based the design on adding "prime details" to her flayed Berserker modern version.  DE didn't change it, and that ends the discussion.  There are three versions of Valkyr - modern "flayed," the Prime based on that, and the Deluxe version just reveals her original appearance before Alad V vivisected her.

Nothing we currently know about Xaku requires a "corrupted" version, because the ONLY thing we know for sure about their backstory is that they are made from remnants of at least three other Warframes.  We also know (from the Ivara Prex story) that the Orokin are jerks who would commission Warframe designs and then hunt them down and destroy them for sport.  (And possibly deleting the original blueprints just out of spite.)  Apparently even being in a life-and-death struggle with the Sentients wasn't enough to outweigh their general nature as massive butt-hats.

Revenant's lore is a mess, but there won't be anything different about the Prime version aside from the stats and some extra gold trim.  Again, that ship sailed off the edge of the world with Valkyr.

This *conversation* doesn't matter, if we're completely honest.  You're massively overthinking something that the devs clearly didn't (and likely don't, and won't) ever consider to matter very much.  Putting any more thought into it is wandering into the pointlessness of people who argue about the "lore and canon" of minor technical errors in movies or shows.  "Oh, but did you see in Episode 2402349, during the speech?  Londsat seems to teleport from one side of the room to the other and back during his speech!  He's *clearly* a Star Wizard!"  As opposed to, you know, a minor editing or shooting error that wasn't important enough to fix before release.  OnO

[TARINunit9]

8 hours ago, EmberStar said:

For Valkyr, the ship already sailed.  The designer derped (and I think even admitted so later) and based her Prime on the flayed version without really thinking about the lore.  They aren't going to rework her, because if that was in the cards they would have done it right away.

Not quite. Valkyr Prime is an amalgamation if pre-Corpus and post-Corpus design elements.

[SilentMobius]

On 2020-10-28 at 2:04 AM, EmberStar said:

When they went to make the Prime version the designer either didn't know that, or forgot, and directly based the design on adding "prime details" to her flayed Berserker modern version.  DE didn't change it, and that ends the discussion. 

Just one point, I think you're misremembering, I've been through every devstream for lore and I'm pretty sure that Steve simply admitted that they "created a problem for themselves" in designing Valkyr the way they did, not that there was any form of mistake. DE could simply have decided that all Prime Warframes must be artistically based on the version that players can earn, not a deluxe skin, as a design-level requirement. Which in turn created a lore void that some people want clarification on.

Think about it this way, if part of DE is trying to make sure that they ship a Prime Access that people want to buy do you request a art of a fancy version of the design people know and love or on the Deluxe skin that far fewer players have seen?

From what DE have told us the design could be both deliberate and yet be perceived as a lore problem that players want clarity on.

[RamPuppy]

13 hours ago, EmberStar said:

First, I assure you I didn't misunderstand anything, but thanks for talking down to me.  I love being patronized.

Sorry, but thats on you - you took what I wrote to be condescending and patronizing - I did not write it that way, If I wanted to peel your skin of with blistering invective you'd still be looking for the tatters.   On the flip side, your communication has been nothing but arrogant and argumentative, seeing that only your narrow interpretation of the lore is acceptable.  We all fill in the gaps of the lore with our own constructs to make it make more sense, most of us I think however are capable of recognizing that what our brain fills in is mutable or flat out wrong. 

There is nothing that overtly states that the Myconian Infestation IS NOT different - therefore if DE decides for it to be so - it can be.  (DE - no you.) 

Valkyr - who's to say that cannot be hand waved away as Ordis's remembering, and the PRIME Version of Valkyr is still the 'flayed' Valkyr - so no - it's not ship sailed.  

Xaku - here's where I condescend - I stated TWICE That Xaku didn't really fit this model, and only included Xaku because the origin story was atypical.  Not quite sure how you would keep arguing with me over the only point we agree on. Xaku is NOT a good fit for this idea.  

Revenant - Sorry - I didn't realize that you were the person that determined if a ship had sailed or not - that you had creative control over warframe Lore. There is no reason they cannot actually address something like this - and.. again... the frame that came out of the process would NOT be revenant, having deluxe and alt skins does NOT in any way shape or form force DE into a singular story path. 

But hey - sorry for trying to give DE an idea for a mildly interesting new mechanic that gets you some more warframe variants to play with.  Shame on me.
 

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, RamPuppy said:

Sorry, but thats on you - you took what I wrote to be condescending and patronizing - I did not write it that way, If I wanted to peel your skin of with blistering invective you'd still be looking for the tatters.

Uh huh.  And since the rest of your reply is varying degrees of patronizing and passive aggressive, I'll give this exactly the response it deserves.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

For valkyr they can just release a new stance for her claw, unlock by getting her prime, which makes her move more methodical instead of hysterical.

[Megalomaniakaal]

On 2020-10-27 at 11:57 PM, RamPuppy said:

Yeah having two valkyr primes would be confusing - so we just give the new one a different name.  

How about, Umbra? Valkyr Umbra? No? I'm the only one visioning it?

[Loza03]

On 2020-10-27 at 8:34 PM, EmberStar said:

The issue with Harrow isn't whether or not Harrow has a Prime version.  The weird bit there is that according to the story, Rell was rejected by Marguilis and never included in her original attempts at using Transference as a form of therapy to allow Tenno to interact with normal people without vaporizing them with uncontrolled blasts of Void energy.  In other words, the big unanswered question is *how* Rell got a Warframe at all, not whether or not Harrow has a Prime version.

We can guess that he was either given one anyway since the more soldiers the merrier, or he nicked one. That therapy, after all, is what repressed natural transference, so he'd still have that ability - no need for a Somatic Link, no need to play by Orokin Transference rules.