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The Grendel Rework


(XBOX)GearsMatrix301

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So Grendel currently isn’t the most popular of frames. So here’s some ideas to help improve what he already has to make him more appealing.
 

Feast: The energy drain needs to be changed. I’d say drain 2 energy per second from the first enemy eaten and an additional 1 energy for every enemy eaten after that. And get rid of the scaling drain.

Nourish: Increase the strength of the buffs by how many enemies are in Grendels stomach. Like for each enemy add like an additional 5% or 10% power per enemy to the stats. Also maybe have the number of eaten enemies increase the damage  dealt to the enemies inside Grendels stomach. Undertow has that kind of damage scaling and it would hopefully benefit Grendel as well. Also maybe scale the heal up with the number of eaten enemies.

Regurgitate: Give this abilities AOE a 50% armor strip. For each enemy consumed an additional 10% armor strip will be added to that effect up to 100%.

Pulverize: Reduce the number if enemies required to reach maximum size. Change energy drain on empty stomach from a scaling drain to 5 energy per second.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Feast: The energy drain needs to be changed. I’d say drain 2 energy per second from the first enemy eaten and an additional 1 energy for every enemy eaten after that. And get rid of the scaling drain.

Yeah. I'd be okay with that.

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Nourish: Increase the strength of the buffs by how many enemies are in Grendels stomach. Like for each enemy add like an additional 5% or 10% power per enemy to the stats. Also maybe have the number of eaten enemies increase the damage  dealt to the enemies inside Grendels stomach. Undertow has that kind of damage scaling and it would hopefully benefit Grendel as well.

Honestly, I'd rather just have all three buffs rolled into one and last a third of the time, and remove the "channeling preventing energy recovery" restriction from this ability.

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Regurgitate: Give this abilities AOE a 50% armor strip. For each enemy consumed an additional 10% armor strip will be added to that effect up to 100%.

Eh, maybe the first half. I'd prefer to give this a CC element, like making the ground slick around the target, or making the enemies' parts gore-splode and stick to other enemies, making them move far more clunkily.

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Pulverize: Reduce the number if enemies required to reach maximum size.

Yes but...

Pulverize is such an oddball (heh) ability. Since Grendel already has a sumo aesthetic, why not a massive Sumo Stomp that deals more damage based on swallowed enemies? I know you'd have some overlap with Rhino, but don't have Grendel's stomp be a massive "time freeze" thing? Like, it knocks nearby enemies away. Great CC, and a ton of damage to boot. Thought this would remove Grendel's "mobility" ability. Maybe just move this suggestion to replace Regurgitate. *shrug*

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6 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Yeah. I'd be okay with that.

Honestly, I'd rather just have all three buffs rolled into one and last a third of the time, and remove the "channeling preventing energy recovery" restriction from this ability.

Eh, maybe the first half. I'd prefer to give this a CC element, like making the ground slick around the target, or making the enemies' parts gore-splode and stick to other enemies, making them move far more clunkily.

Yes but...

Pulverize is such an oddball (heh) ability. Since Grendel already has a sumo aesthetic, why not a massive Sumo Stomp that deals more damage based on swallowed enemies? I know you'd have some overlap with Rhino, but don't have Grendel's stomp be a massive "time freeze" thing? Like, it knocks nearby enemies away. Great CC, and a ton of damage to boot. Thought this would remove Grendel's "mobility" ability. Maybe just move this suggestion to replace Regurgitate. *shrug*

Reducing Nourishes buff duration is a big no from me.

Revurgitate has no business being a CC ability as Feast is already godly at it.

Pulverize is a meme ability. It’s also not all that bad of an ability. Actually giving regurgitate an armor strip will actually help pulverize as you can strip armor and then bowling ball your way through enemies for more damage.

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I like most of your changes, I would keep the scaling on feast as you are intended to eat and spit repeat not really eat and hold for an extended time. The problem is the spawn rate on non SP missions going from enemy group to enemy group is really slim. So to add synergy and give his 3 more of a point would be to have there be energy gain on 1-2 enemies in your stomach no gain or loss on 3 and current scaling past that. This would let him control his energy easily and room clear on high level missions like he currently does. 

Id love to see a loot frame augment on his 1 to give him some more popularity. 

 

14 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

Honestly, I'd rather just have all three buffs rolled into one and last a third of the time, and remove the "channeling preventing energy recovery" restriction from this ability.

In my current build I get about 9 sec on the buffs. I guess if efficiency isnt as demanded I guess you could get away with just a streamline and run a primed continuity in place of fleeting expertise. 

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I've never had an energy problem with Grendel but sure we can make his economy better I wouldn't mind.  Nourish as an ability annoys me because it's another quiver style ability.  That interaction is absolutely abysmal for controllers.  I'd rather number of enemies eaten dictate the ability casting.  eating 1 enemy gives you the first one.  Eating 2 gives you the first and second.  and eating 3 gives all 3.  Nourish armor could use a different effect and strike needs a stronger multiplier but not by much.

Giving armor strip is definitely interesting for his 3 but considering you already do a lot of stripping with his normal loop i'm not sure how valuable that would be.  I wish you could use his 3 in his 4 as a way to propel yourself around.  But i'm not sure what can be done to make his 3 on it's own valuable.  It kind of serves as a way to micro manage the bodies in your gut.  But I've often found it more worth while to just eat as many enemies as possible and then shotgun them out on someone else.  Maybe the enemy spit and enemies in the AoE of where the bodies land can get disarmed from the sheer force of the spit?  DE seems to forget if you're going to have an ability like 3 that it either needs to do buckets of damage or it needs some sort of utility.  That or it needs to feed into the loop if the kit if one exists.

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I remember I make a similar suggestion for feast before , but instead of just reduced drain , I suggested an "scaling drain" concept , as the energy drain per unit will increase base on how many there are.

If only 1~5 units , it will be barely noticeable , while over 15 will drain like crazy . 

 

I really think nourish's buff should be merge into one single cast , and can stack multiple time to increase duration. ( Tribute need this treatment, too )

 

The biggest problem of his 4 IMO is the control . That has to be the no.1 priority if someone want to change this ability.

 

Other than those , I think I agree most of your suggestion .

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15 hours ago, Kaiune said:

I like most of your changes, I would keep the scaling on feast as you are intended to eat and spit repeat not really eat and hold for an extended time. The problem is the spawn rate on non SP missions going from enemy group to enemy group is really slim. So to add synergy and give his 3 more of a point would be to have there be energy gain on 1-2 enemies in your stomach no gain or loss on 3 and current scaling past that. This would let him control his energy easily and room clear on high level missions like he currently does. 

Id love to see a loot frame augment on his 1 to give him some more popularity. 

 

In my current build I get about 9 sec on the buffs. I guess if efficiency isnt as demanded I guess you could get away with just a streamline and run a primed continuity in place of fleeting expertise. 

Well the scaling energy drain of feast is the main reason people don’t like Grendel, and think he’s a bad frame.

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2 hours ago, Bakahung said:

I remember I make a similar suggestion for feast before , but instead of just reduced drain , I suggested an "scaling drain" concept , as the energy drain per unit will increase base on how many there are.

If only 1~5 units , it will be barely noticeable , while over 15 will drain like crazy . 

 

I really think nourish's buff should be merge into one single cast , and can stack multiple time to increase duration. ( Tribute need this treatment, too )

 

The biggest problem of his 4 IMO is the control . That has to be the no.1 priority if someone want to change this ability.

 

Other than those , I think I agree most of your suggestion .

You should never punish a player for using their abilities.

I don’t see DE ever making an ability that provides multiple, very different buffs on a single cast. Unless that ability is an Ult.

 

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17 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I've never had an energy problem with Grendel but sure we can make his economy better I wouldn't mind.  Nourish as an ability annoys me because it's another quiver style ability.  That interaction is absolutely abysmal for controllers.  I'd rather number of enemies eaten dictate the ability casting.  eating 1 enemy gives you the first one.  Eating 2 gives you the first and second.  and eating 3 gives all 3.  Nourish armor could use a different effect and strike needs a stronger multiplier but not by much.

Giving armor strip is definitely interesting for his 3 but considering you already do a lot of stripping with his normal loop i'm not sure how valuable that would be.  I wish you could use his 3 in his 4 as a way to propel yourself around.  But i'm not sure what can be done to make his 3 on it's own valuable.  It kind of serves as a way to micro manage the bodies in your gut.  But I've often found it more worth while to just eat as many enemies as possible and then shotgun them out on someone else.  Maybe the enemy spit and enemies in the AoE of where the bodies land can get disarmed from the sheer force of the spit?  DE seems to forget if you're going to have an ability like 3 that it either needs to do buckets of damage or it needs some sort of utility.  That or it needs to feed into the loop if the kit if one exists.

The number of enemies eaten dictating what buff you get doesn’t really work because Grendel can just clear out a group of enemies with Feast. And you do yourself no favors by not doing that.

Grendels only source of armor strip right now is to enemies in his stomach. I wanted to give him one for enemies outside the stomach. Since the way I imagine DE wanted Grendel to play out is eating enemies to boost up Grendel so he can demolish enemies outside his stomach. These changes help put him closer to that idea. Since right now it’s more punishing than rewarding to have more than like 5 enemies in Grendels stomach at any given time, and if those enemies are in his stomach too long. I’ve had my energy drop like a rock because I had just one enemy in my stomach and I threw like 8 more on top of that. Because the first one was draining so much energy.

Adding any kind of CC to Grendels already redundant due to how good Feast is at it already.  

 

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for someone who literally put 15 forma on grendel, because i liked him so much, i have to say i think he's OK at the moment.

i love being constantly on edge and aware of my stats and environment, how much energy i have, how many enemies around me, i use pulverize in bursts, because it's cluncky anyway to try and stay in this form for longer than 3 to 4 seconds

eat, activate buffs, use pulverize for bursts of damage and CC then get out of that form when you're done.

however i do like 2 of your rework suggestions that is the armor strip on regurgitate, and the reduced maximum enemy required for maximum damage, i like the former because now i can strip armor and one shot kill any enemy level with pulverize at max damage without the need for Ember's fireblast, and the latter because it's such a big quality of life improvement to have, better and faster damage scaling

lastly i would suggest outright REMOVING the damage per enemy cap on pulverize, the ability is already ridiculous and clunky, just let it have infinite scaling, it deserves it

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On 2020-10-30 at 9:02 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The number of enemies eaten dictating what buff you get doesn’t really work because Grendel can just clear out a group of enemies with Feast. And you do yourself no favors by not doing that.

That's kind of my point.  I don't think selectable buffs is a good interaction.  The ability should provide multiple effects by default.  If my proposal is too ham fisted then maybe they just need to have the number of enemies consumed effect the strength or duration of said effects.  I really don't care either way.  So long as the garbage quiver style is removed.

On 2020-10-30 at 9:02 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Grendels only source of armor strip right now is to enemies in his stomach. I wanted to give him one for enemies outside the stomach. Since the way I imagine DE wanted Grendel to play out is eating enemies to boost up Grendel so he can demolish enemies outside his stomach. These changes help put him closer to that idea. Since right now it’s more punishing than rewarding to have more than like 5 enemies in Grendels stomach at any given time, and if those enemies are in his stomach too long. I’ve had my energy drop like a rock because I had just one enemy in my stomach and I threw like 8 more on top of that. Because the first one was draining so much energy.

Okay but what's going to stop me from just sucking all the enemies I see in and then just shotgunning them out only to do so again when new enemies come by to be stripped?  I just don't see the value in giving him additional strip.  I have always felt that his 3 is primarily existing to micro manage how many bodies he has in his tummy.  Not that whatever it does after being fired out as a primary effect.  Where as his ability to expel all enemies out at once has the side effect of shotgunning enemies it mainly is just a quick way to dump enemies if you really need to keep your energy up.  I'm not exactly sure why one enemy would be draining a lot of energy for you.

On 2020-10-30 at 9:02 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Adding any kind of CC to Grendels already redundant due to how good Feast is at it already.  

 

I mean I wouldn't really call disarming a CC effect.  It indirectly boosts his survival since he's got less things kashooting at him.  And the forced melee range means his garbage armor buff would see more use.  Personally I wish it was just a single target nuke ability with collateral damage via leaving toxin/corrosive DoT in an area.  But Grendel's 4 is already his "damage" ability.  So that would also be redundant.  Hence why I suggested some sort of utility.  There's nothing inherently wrong with giving him more armor strip.  But I don't see that making his 3 any more desirable than it's current state.  Personally i'd use his 3 more if I could use it to propel his 4 around.  But i'm weird so I'm not the standard that he should be judged by.

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22 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

for someone who literally put 15 forma on grendel, because i liked him so much, i have to say i think he's OK at the moment.

i love being constantly on edge and aware of my stats and environment, how much energy i have, how many enemies around me, i use pulverize in bursts, because it's cluncky anyway to try and stay in this form for longer than 3 to 4 seconds

eat, activate buffs, use pulverize for bursts of damage and CC then get out of that form when you're done.

I agree, this comes down to intended gameplay loop and desired gameplay loop. Most who really complain about the drain are holding enemies for the armor gain thinking they need to maintain it as nova maintains her Null star. His intended loop is exactly as you showed ead buff pulverise spit/puke repeat. The real problem is that a lot of missions don't spawn enough enemies for him to be effective he really shines in SP where there are more than enough enemies to always make the most out of your abilities.  His 3 needs something more special so it is used aside from yeeting enemies off the map for an instant delete.  So either a bigger aoe from where the spit lands or have managing enemies in gut give more of a bonus like energy regen at a certain number then buff duration at another. I personally prefer the idea of more synergy to make the decision tougher if you want to use the helminth. 

 

 

23 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

lastly i would suggest outright REMOVING the damage per enemy cap on pulverize, the ability is already ridiculous and clunky, just let it have infinite scaling, it deserves it

%100 this should be. So what if Grendel is OP he is one of the hardest frames to get and should be OP as he is a sign of some one who actually puts time into the game to do all the content he should be a huge reward. 

Personally after giving him an honest go the frame has quickly climbed the ranks to be one of my favorite frames along side his best friend Gauss. Really between those two and wukong for spy missions you can do almost all content effectively and enjoyably.  

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On 2020-10-31 at 1:24 PM, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

That's kind of my point.  I don't think selectable buffs is a good interaction.  The ability should provide multiple effects by default.  If my proposal is too ham fisted then maybe they just need to have the number of enemies consumed effect the strength or duration of said effects.  I really don't care either way.  So long as the garbage quiver style is removed.

Okay but what's going to stop me from just sucking all the enemies I see in and then just shotgunning them out only to do so again when new enemies come by to be stripped?  I just don't see the value in giving him additional strip.  I have always felt that his 3 is primarily existing to micro manage how many bodies he has in his tummy.  Not that whatever it does after being fired out as a primary effect.  Where as his ability to expel all enemies out at once has the side effect of shotgunning enemies it mainly is just a quick way to dump enemies if you really need to keep your energy up.  I'm not exactly sure why one enemy would be draining a lot of energy for you.

I mean I wouldn't really call disarming a CC effect.  It indirectly boosts his survival since he's got less things kashooting at him.  And the forced melee range means his garbage armor buff would see more use.  Personally I wish it was just a single target nuke ability with collateral damage via leaving toxin/corrosive DoT in an area.  But Grendel's 4 is already his "damage" ability.  So that would also be redundant.  Hence why I suggested some sort of utility.  There's nothing inherently wrong with giving him more armor strip.  But I don't see that making his 3 any more desirable than it's current state.  Personally i'd use his 3 more if I could use it to propel his 4 around.  But i'm weird so I'm not the standard that he should be judged by.

Don’t like cyclable abilities either, but it makes more sense than just giving the player 3 completely different buffs on a single cast.

Giving his 3 armor strip gives you more options, and would be a far less energy intensive way to armor strip with Grendel.

???? Grendels feast isn’t disarming. It’s a “delete” button that completely removes enemies from the battle field.

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