Super long feedback about Status Effect problems and solutions (you were warned)

[BahamutKaiser]

So status in warframe is kind of bunk. One of the three initial status effects makes the other two a subtraction, and half of the elements are weak if not problematic...

Why does Slash status ignore armor when Toxin and Gas do not? Why does heat do damage over time, armor strip, and stop enemies from moving or attacking for 4 seconds, while cold only slows foes? And why are there so many status immune foes and bosses, with like 4 different status variations between general foes, players, bosses and so on? Why do status effects work on astral projections of operators?

So here are my solutions and observations for status change.

Firstly, there are several weapons with low fire rate and low status, or low fire rate and high status, that will never compare to high fire rate, even with low status (beam weapons are way up there). A lot of elements currently have a high opening status value, which is also the static status value on players, rather than, just fixing the status application of slow firing weapons...

Fix the status on slow weapons, really high status application on slow weapons should be a staple, even if it's not a status weapon, 100% status chance. Slow status oriented weapons? 200% status chance base. Honestly, its ridiculous that a 10% status chance automatic weapon can out proc a slow weapon no matter what the status chance is because of hit count. Beside that, I'm proposing reduced initial status potency that way status chance ramps up evenly with most status effects rather than front loading the status, so hitting 3 or 4 procs in one hit will be more practical. A status weapon should have similar status output whether its a slow or fast firing weapon, this is basic effect per second math. Now that multiprocing status on a single shot is a thing, this is easy to apply.

This leads into the second point make all status effects gradual, stacking at least 10 procs. Its not necessary to front load procs if multiproc status is applied to slower weapons. Idk if this is a huge problem for player received status effects, but it would be better if it was more gradual on players too.

Third, make a few categories of status application for regular enemies, powerful enemies and tenno make a separate category with most bosses, then special bosses, and rational partial immunities for unique enemies. Obviously the effects on Tenno aren't as dramatic as they are on foes, while many bosses fail, and I mean FAIL, to interact with status. Regular bosses or special foes like liches should interact with statuses similarly to Tenno. The bigger bosses should not be totally status immune unless they are doing something like a skill. Just like Tenno, it makes sense if a certain enemy has a specific status immunity just like a mod or an arcane would offer, but only abilities should make them fully status immune or clear statuses, and only if that ability isn't restrained.

I can understand if players aren't able to redirect a giant bosses fire on its allies with confusion and so on, but the same applies to Tenno, they just deal damage to allies if they cross fire, or are a map bomber...

So I know this is already too long for most readers, let's get to the actual status effects themselves. Well one more point impacting several statuses regarding armor stripping. Independently calculated armor strip is bullsh** just make all forms of armor strip stack up to 99% max and perhaps reduce several of the individual effects. This includes Corrosive Projection, Corrosive stat, Heat, abilities, so on. Its nonsense to make armor stripping counter intuitive, they should all work additively, and only stop at 99% because of bonus damage typing... which can honestly be fixed by keeping health type the same even if the armor is completely nullified...

Okay.

Slash, hate me, it should be nerfed. Not directly in the amount of damage dealt, but in the way it is resisted. It is obscene that puncture damage is the type that is designed to do more damage to armor, but slash status ignores armor and runs a damage calculation without armor making it superior to puncture for killing armored units. Slash status needs to be reduced by armor, it makes more sense for Toxin, even Gas, to ignore armor, but somehow a base slash damage type just ignores it for no reason.
Furthermore, robots should be slash immune or resistant. They aren't bleeding, they are robots, future robots, redundancies, whatever, robots on all factions should be slash status immune or resistant. Maybe that's not necessary if all robots are armored and resist slash damage organically. Somehow sentient robots are status immune but Grineer and Corpus robots can be poisoned, 🤔 OKAY.

Against Tenno and bosses, slash should cap at a certain percent of max health per second, so players can respond to it, and bosses don't evaporate.

Also shields should resist status elements that are not specifically effective against shields, this means slash, puncture, maybe corrosive. This could mean they cut status chance in half, or maybe just immune to certain statuses until their shields are depleted. I need to study this more, but that's what I have at the moment.

Impact is cool in theory... but fails to perform in practice. 10 procs to allow parazon finisher while the foe is alive, 5% chance stacking 10 fold to allow a parazon finisher after they die, finishers should linger after the foe dies for 1 to 3 seconds. Currently, it just doesn't work, the damage raining around 4 players evaporates foes before you can reach them, and you don't get to utilize your fancy parazon finisher, or gain the "mercy" mod benefits. Against bosses and Tenno, impact procs should increase melee damage taken or open you up to finishers from your lich, the current back break move liches do with no warning is BS, they should have to proc you in some fashion, even if it's simply a single punch opener. 2% to 5% increased melee damage received stacking up to 10 fold on foes that can't be affected by finishers. Keep the basic stagger, on normal foes.

Punctures current effect is garbage, reduced damage is irrelevant if the foe is stunned by abilities, heat, electric, melee staggering, everything ever... its ridiculous. The only time it would help is if the huge wrecking bosses weren't status immune... wow, that means it's useless. So first, all bosses should take 100% effect from puncture statuses damage reduction, even if their immune to everything else, damage reduction from puncture should always apply. This is the same for Tenno, only the damage decrease applies, all the way to 30%.

Next, puncture should have a small amount of armor reduction, adding with corrosive or heat, or Corrossive Projection. In fact, Corrossive statuses max armor reduction should stack with any one of the following to completely (99%) remove armor, max puncture, or heat (they should remove the same amount), or two copies of Corrosive Projection should have the same efficiency. I'm suggesting 3% armor and damage reduction for puncture, up to 10 fold, making Corrosive only 7% armor reduction up to 10 fold, and CP would be 15% each.

As a bonus effect puncture should synergize with Corrosive, if corrosive status is applied and corrosive is already at max procs, it should apply a puncture proc and renew the status decay time on both statuses, and vice versa, only if the weapon has any puncture damage. This would ensure that a typical IPS weapon modded for corrosive would never need CP or heat to reach max armor strip effectively, making it better to mod for cold rather than heat. The armor reduction wouldn't apply to Tenno and superior foes, only the damage reduction.

Speaking of cold, this is simple, cold stacks 10% slow, 10 fold, at 10 stacks they freeze competently for a second, maybe even a half second. The duration is much higher at low procs, and instead of dropping off, it decays to a lower slow amount if it declines from higher procs. Change Frosts passive to double or triple cold duration within 50 meters. Furthermore, add 1% or 2% flat critical chance to all incoming damage per proc, cold can't normally build with viral, it fits. Can be 10% increased damage taken per proc instead. Against bosses and Tenno, slow is capped at 30%, and the extra damage multiplier doesn't apply.

Heat is mostly the same, except it stacks 10% armor reduction per second up to 30%, then decays back down as it falls off its last 2 seconds. The armor reduction could interact more with Ember and her skills, or not.

Electric can remain unchanged, maybe something cool with Volt doubling the radius of effect. A bonus effect could be added here like increase damage from abilities, maybe only non exalted weapon abilities.

Toxin and Gas should renew each other's effect if they are both present. Certain robots should have resistance or immunity to Toxin, and the effects of toxin and toxic auras should have a percent of max health cap for Tenno and bosses, basically you should never lose more than 10% of your max health per second of damage over time from Slash, Gas, Heat, or Toxin, unless a combination of those effects are on you. Maybe have toxin renew viral procs too.

An optional bonus effect for Toxin could be increased susceptibility to status effects, or renewal of all status effect timers.

Gas should ignore armor, simple, well maybe partially ignore armor, Gas status doesn't need to deal a ton of damage, it's virtue is that it spreads and works on shielded foes, which it should actually Work, On, Shielded, Foes. Perhaps not as well vs robots, but "Treasurers" are not exempt, resistance, fine, immunity, no, it's gas, don't break continuity. The damage on gas could go down if it worked on armor, or maybe it just stays the same and works best on armor stripping builds, but most of all... just make it include the elemental mod damage in its calculation, both elements, maybe nothing further would have to be done to it. If it's too strong, reduce the percent of damage expressed by its status effect, don't use some cryptically broken damage multiplier to suppress it.

Magnetic has a problem, it's super good on shields, and has no impact on 3.7 factions. Meanwhile, on frames it dumps the already meaningless amount of shields we have, and affects the much more important energy. Wut?

Magnetic should have an equivalent negative against all foes, reduced ability use. This means ground slams, grappling hooks, redeployment of nullifier bubbles. This goes double for bosses, anything that isn't a trigger for a vulnerability phase, this should suppress. They may not operate on the same energy as Tenno, I don't care, whatever trigger or timer enemies have for ability use, their timer can be extended so they use it less often. Maybe it doesn't have to block their initial use, and it may not have an impact since many foes get their ability off only once, but ability suppression helps make magnetic universally applicable. Maybe this could block the initial ability use for very ability centric foes like Eximus, or those helmet Corpus. And as a side benefit to having shields, it could suppress abilities only after all shields are removed. Adding a 0.5 to 5 second delay on the next ability used. So 30% extra shield damage stacking 10 fold, suspend shield recovery 5 or 6 seconds, after shields are depleted increase ability use delay 0.5 seconds stacking 10 fold. On Tenno and bosses, the shield damage could be limited to 10% stacking 10 fold. Bosses could have their abilities suppressed, and the energy lost on Tenno could stay the same, or become something more incremental, like 10 energy lost per proc, to 50 energy lost per second, only lasting one second. Currently, the way magnetic strips 200 energy over 4 seconds is aggressive, though that might be fine if it had to strip shields before it affected energy.

I already covered Corrosive with Puncture, 7% armor reduction, up to 10 fold, lasts 10 seconds and renew corrosive and puncture procs while dealing puncture procs if the weapon also has puncture damage when the corrosive status is maxed out. Against Tenno, the procs are only 5% armor reduction stacking up to 10 fold, and no other forms of armor reduction apply. Perhaps the armor reduction on Tenno would only last 5 seconds. Bosses will already ignore the armor reduction from heat and puncture, so 7%-70% should fully apply. This might seem terrible, but it's more important that all bosses can have their armor reduced by 70% than for very few of them to have their armor reduced by 100%.

Speaking of which, several if not all forms of armor stripping should have their values retooled to operate either as corrosive status, or in the similar vein. It's more important that armor reduction abilities actually affect bosses and special foes rather than them having generous armor strip which doesn't even affect "XYZ". This includes Shattering Impact and Corrosive Projection. Hell, they could even replace Corrosive Projections effect to apply 4 or 5 procs of Corrosive status to all foes in proximity at all times.

It would be better for bosses to have an occasional status recovery applied to one of their abilities, or their invulnerability phases, with a second or two of status immunity every time they purge their status effects, rather than have this counter intuitive system of over applied status immunity that forces players to build differently just to maximize critical and have worse build diversity.

Players already prioritize killing as the primary defensive status effect... why make it worse by denying the use of reducing damage with puncture or supporting damage dealers with corrosive and viral procs. This over abundant status immunity nonsense just kills build diversity.

Blast is really ridiculous, it reduces accuracy. Not as much as radiation, which makes foes shoot their allies, or heat, electric and impact, which make foes miss 100% of all shots not being taken, it just reduces foes accuracy... not to mention that blast doesn't deal AoE damage while Gas and Electric do... just, no. Blast should have its reduced accuracy decreased to 5% stacking up to 10 fold, and deal 1% of blast damage dealt to foes within 1 meter stacking up to 10 fold. That means that 10 stacks of blast will reduce foes accuracy by 50%, and deal 10% of blast damage to foes within 10 meters, without affecting the shooter with staggering... Against Tenno and bosses, it could only reduce their accuracy, and radiation doesn't need to reduce accuracy, stop stepping on blasts territory. DE can mix foes with blast and radiation damage if they want lower accuracy and friendly fire.

Radiation is a tough one, it's almost never applied to Tenno, and even 1% of a Tennos damage is enough to instagib a tank build... I'm not a fan of the asymmetric damage and defense in this game, if it was more properly balanced, weird ratios wouldn't need to exist here. But anyway, the main thing is just adding confusion on foes, dealing 50% damage per hit to their allies, stacking 10 fold, and for bosses and Tenno, it would be 10% of damage dealt stacking 10 fold, the duration could actually be reduced to 10 seconds in general, maybe 5 for bosses and Tenno. Furthermore, Tenno ability and melee damage could be reduced 1% up to 10 fold.

Radiation is in a place where it either can exist on players, or it's instantly the most fatal effect in the game... the purpose here is to get it to a point where it doesn't one shot players because your in a squad with Saryn, resulting in it virtually never being implemented on foes.

Perhaps a smarter limitation to friendly fire damage is that it can not deal more than 10% of your max health per second against Tenno... and may as well be bosses too. Any combination of these effects are fine. Beside that, it's dumb to put reduced accuracy on Tenno who can one shot allies. It's the most oppressive status on Tenno even with concessions, it doesn't need reduced accuracy. The last bit is against friendly primary objectives, they need to be immune to radiation and immune to damage from irradiated Tenno. It's ridiculous for defensive objectives to evaporate in one shot because of poor design, the way radiation works, one player gets affected by radiation, then spreads incidental radiation to everyone around them, then they all spread radiation to each other endlessly until everyone dies... when you make something so broken that it can't even be used, it never gets fixed. Fix it, stop avoiding it.

As a personal note, I like games with friendly fire more than not, I would even like modes where you can actually enjoy it. You can't enjoy it if it's randomly and instantly fatal because Equinox forgot your next door.

That leaves Viral.... viral is fine, until its so superfluous that it doesn't apply at all... stop that. Against enemies it can change to 15% or 20% increased damage, stacking 10 fold. Against Tenno and bosses, it can change to 5% or 10% stacking 10 fold. It makes more sense for robots to be immune to viral, along with gas, toxin and slash, than some random infested. Infested are a super disease on their own, and I can understand them having some viral resistance, but it should be no more than Tenno have. As a side note, they could have super strains of infested that regenerate health if they aren't damaged for a few seconds, with viral stopping their regeneration similar to magnetic stopping shield regen.

Beyond that, toxin status could work as a viral status extender, maybe for all toxin based statuses. And shields could prevent viral status effect til shields are removed.

Infested are already notoriously easy to kill, Deimos has tried to remedy this by giving them armor and viral immunity... that's wrong, armor is fine, they shouldn't also have viral immunity. Pick one, one or two infested that are viral immune as a special feature is cool, if it isn't combined with armor. Those should be interesting choices like infested Osprey and Moas, Boilers, and maybe something like Ancients.
Another alternative for infested is the idea of viral load. Infested may resist the effects of viral status until it reaches 10 procs, where it suddenly overwhelms their super resilient biology and offers the complete reduction of the status. This is a nice educational effect to commemorate 2020...

The point being is that, infested don't have shields, they often don't have armor, I wouldn't mind if they had generally high status resistance overall, like 50% less status procs received, or half the duration on status effects, but viral was designed to be the appropriate effect on infested, and that should not be removed from infested just to artificially inflate Diemos tanks defense. We want more status variety, not less.

Anyway, I've been working on this so long that I'm not sure what all I forgot to include. I didn't bother to research all the BS, like special Corpus units with shields that ignore magnetic status... but no foe should be immune to the status primarily designed to address them. It's not only counter intuitive, it's destroying build variety, is magnetic being used too much? Why did you do that, that's not just bad, it is incorrect, that's not how you make a game, secretly eliminating natural responses to challenges, it makes the game confusing. Nobody should have to scan through your game and look up counter intuitive information to compensate for bad continuity. Some resistance is fine, but sweeping immunities are bad design. Make the status effects more subtle if they are too powerful to be included at all, don't make 2 versions of the game and frustrate players with one experience where you can use status effects and one where you can't, it's bad design and it shouldn't be there, period.
 

If anyone can help me refine this with more detailed information, I'd appreciate it, but I can understand if it's not worth your time to read this much or look into it that deeply, I could hardly be bothered to finish this, and I'm doing it on my spare time at work. I mostly made this because DE said they would fix these problems... but I'm doubtful they will. I'm also doubtful they'll read this, but it was something to pass the time. And it's better than highjacking everyone else discussion about status, I'll just link my thoughts to other players threads.

Thanks to anyone who actually read this 😅

[DrBorris]

14 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Slow status oriented weapons? 200% status chance base.

So now low fire rate weapons will have disproportionately absurd DoT status effects as compared to high rate of fire weapons. This only exchanges one problem for another.

15 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

This leads into the second point make all status effects gradual, stacking at least 10 procs.

What does this help with? If the cap is 10 than it means that weapons that can't get to 10 procs quickly aren't getting the most out of status, weapons that get 10 procs very rapidly are wasting their status chance, and only a few weapons hit the Goldilocks zone where the status is balanced.

18 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Third, make a few categories of status application for regular enemies, powerful enemies and tenno make a separate category with most bosses, then special bosses, and rational partial immunities for unique enemies.

I can get behind making status-on-Tenno effects unique, but having effects be unique on different types of enemies enemies just makes the system more confusing than it needs to be. A Viral proc should be a Viral proc, this proposal is a can of worms that makes balancing status far more difficult as you now have double the status effects to worry about. If you are having to add variations and rules on top of variations and rules you should at some point go back and see if the core concept is worth trying to force to work.

 

This whole rework feels more like you are trying to force balance onto a fundamentally unbalanced system. Status stacking on hits is broken and there is no way to fix it (unless you completely remove DoT status). It is a fool's errand trying to balance status when it scales with fire rate. If you really want to "fix" status you need to change how it fundamentally works. I don't mean to sound too harsh but it feels like you haven't thought through the full consequences of your suggestions.

I just recently finally posted a proposal to make all status effects scale off of the same stat linearly. This automatically balances all status effects against each other and entirely removes fire rate as a factor of status. If you thought your topic was long... oh boy...

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Status procs are designed in that they give most of their value in the first few procs and slow firing weapons usually deal an order magnitude more damage compared to status hoses to compensate. Not to mention Dot procs scale off of damage. It was the reason why people loved Gas before the nerfs because slow firing Sniper rifles could be turned into AOE weapons that were viable in Sorties.

As status caps out at 10, on fast firing weapons status usually becomes a wasted stat, there is more incentive to run 90% elementals over 60%elemental/60% status mods on them.

Vigorous Swap speeds up holstering speed and gives you 165% damage on equip, so there are mods that support a weapon switching play-style where you have a status primer and a heavy hitter.  

I agree with the fact that Slash is ridiculous in that it is better against armored targets than Puncture as its proc deals True damage. Against a Sortie level enemy with 95% damage reduction (20x health multiplier), 35% Base Damage per tick as True damage is equivocal to a 700% Neutral element per tick. Still, everything boils down to armor scaling. If armor didn't scale in the first place, Slash would lose a lot of its value.

When making status effects, it is best to avoid exceptions and strange rulings. Even though it doesn't make sense for robots to Bleed, no one liked the fact that Deimos infested were immune to Viral. Players hate exceptions and like consistency. Ideally, all status procs will do something.

My suggestions:

(Physical)

Impact: Causes stagger and after 1 second delay creates a 1m explosion that deals 50% damage of the original hit with 100% status chance of the original hit with 0% chance of proccing IPS.

(Basically a delayed 0.5*multi-shot on proc with IPS itself removed from the table guaranteeing an elemental proc for faster ramp up. Benefits utility procs and less so for DoTs.) 

 

Puncture: 1st proc causes target to deal 30% less damage and take 60% more damage to health from all sources for 8 seconds. Caps at -75% and +150% at 10th proc.

(Additive with Viral = Less incentive to run Viral. Multiplicative with armor stripping, makes Corrosive more enticing and allows to scale against Viral/Slash better.) 

 

Slash: After 1 second delay, DoT deals 18% of Base Damage as True damage over 12 seconds.

(Same damage over longer period of time as a nerf as well as make Expedite Suffering more appealing.)

 

(Combined Elements)

Viral: Amplifies all damage to health by +70% for 6 seconds. Subsequent procs increase buff by 20% each, capping at +250%. Upon death, Viral stacks are transferred to nearest enemy within 6m.

(Weaker, but stacks aren't wasted if target dies.)

 

Corrosive: 1st proc reduces armor by 26% and causes Corrosive DoT that ticks each second for 8 seconds. Corrosive DoT tick: Each tick equal to (0.5 × Base Damage × Faction damage bonus) as Corrosive Damage. Subsequent procs reduce an additional 6% (capping at 80%) and increase DoT ticks.

(Extra utility against non-armored with minor extra damage.)

 

Radiation: Target emits a 3m Radiation aura for 12 seconds. Changes occupant faction and grants them +200% Radiation Damage dealt to non-Tenno. Subsequent procs add +100% Radiation damage, caps at +1100% Radiation Damage.

(Radiation damage has good modifiers against Grineer Alloy and Corpus Proxies while it already strips auras from Infested.)

 

Gas: Target is afflicted by a 3m Gas cloud that ticks Gas damage for all occupants inside it, Each subsequent proc increases radius by 0.5m. 7.5m max. Upon death, Gas stacks are transferred to nearest enemy within 6m. Uncapped. Gas DoT tick: Base Damage (1+Toxin mods %+ Heat mods %)× (1 + Faction Damage bonus)

(Adjust for Gas' bad modifiers.)

 

Magnetic: Target is afflicted by a 3m Magnetic Field. Enemies inside Magnetic Field are pulled towards the target. All damage against shields is amplified by 100% while inside the field. Subsequent procs increase radius by 1m. 12m max.

(Larva, Ensnare as a damage proc. Good on utility weapons.)

 

Blast: Causes knockdown and 3m explosion that's 25% of original damage instance that procced Blast with 0% chance of proccing Blast or Impact. (AOE version of Impact.)

(On a standard IPS weapon only modded for Blast results in nothing but Puncture procs and 1/4 and 1/8 strength Slash procs replicating shrapnel. Super good for Condition Overload. Impact procs Blast procs Puncture and Slash.)

[Kaggelos]

Those are actually some excellent ideas, imo at least.

The best part?

They make actual sense.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

22 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Slash, hate me, it should be nerfed. Not directly in the amount of damage dealt, but in the way it is resisted. 

Slash status needs to be reduced by armor

I think you've got it backward. Armor is what needs to be nerfed. imo it shouldn't even function as enemy DR. The way the game scales eHP values, it's just a broken exponential scaling that is best countered by the 3 statues that ignore or reduce it. Armor should probably function more along the lines of how shields do, providing a separate "helath bar" type of effect that must be eliminated before damaging the actual HP. This would not only make Slash, Heat, and Corrosive feel less "Mandatory", but would also allow other damage types to be reasonably good, even if slightly less effective vs. Armor. The only reason anyone actually views Slash as broken is because Armor is broken (even after being nerfed last spring) and Slash is arguably our best counter for it. If Armor functioned more like shields, then Slash would be on a similar power level to Toxin. And Toxin is a reasonably powerful effect that people generally don't consider broken.

If we just nerf Slash without doing anything about armor, we're just taking away a tool to counter the broken thing, without actually fixing the broken thing. And I hate the fact that the S-curve Half-measure DE tried against armor last Spring is probably going to be their excuse to let it stay broken for the indefinite future. Enemies can still put massive DR modifiers on their already massive HP values, and that's ridiculous for the balance of damage types.

Side note: I would also be okay with putting a hard-cap on the DR of Armor.

[BahamutKaiser]

So, unlike having high actual health, armor can be reduced by armor reduction, and the synergy of armor reduction effects included would remedy that by a lot.

Slash isn't going to be left alone, you could leave it out there like a giraffe with its head sticking out of the mole hill like it's not going to be hammered, but all builds can bring some form of armor counter to eliminate the problem.

Your not wrong, armor should be less exponential on foes, and EHP should be a little more naturally balanced, but that doesn't make it a binary problem. You have a dozen damage types and only like 2 are ignoring armor, both problems should be addressed. 

Either way, the function of armor strip coupled with this would address the subject.

[ZarTham]

23 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Impact is cool in theory... but fails to perform in practice. 10 procs to allow parazon finisher while the foe is alive, 5% chance stacking 10 fold to allow a parazon finisher after they die, finishers should linger after the foe dies for 1 to 3 seconds. Currently, it just doesn't work, the damage raining around 4 players evaporates foes before you can reach them, and you don't get to utilize your fancy parazon finisher, or gain the "mercy" mod benefits. Against bosses and Tenno, impact procs should increase melee damage taken or open you up to finishers from your lich, the current back break move liches do with no warning is BS, they should have to proc you in some fashion, even if it's simply a single punch opener. 2% to 5% increased melee damage received stacking up to 10 fold on foes that can't be affected by finishers. Keep the basic stagger, on normal foes.

Yep, in a game where we spam kill, DE expects us to kill slowly just to have some fancy animation........... IMO, Impact damage should have inhate armor reduction, remove Shattering Impact from the game, less 1 mod to bloat that list.

[Famecans]

On 2020-11-01 at 7:42 AM, BahamutKaiser said:

...It is obscene that puncture damage is the type that is designed to do more damage to armor, but slash status ignores armor and runs a damage calculation without armor making it superior to puncture for killing armored units. Slash status needs to be reduced by armor, it makes more sense for Toxin, even Gas, to ignore armor, but somehow a base slash damage type just ignores it for no reason...

really, i will add another meme about this inconsistency in the current damage system

 

Slash Status in "Warframe":

 

Slash Status in "Deimos Open Landscape":

[BahamutKaiser]

22 hours ago, ZarTham said:

Yep, in a game where we spam kill, DE expects us to kill slowly just to have some fancy animation........... IMO, Impact damage should have inhate armor reduction, remove Shattering Impact from the game, less 1 mod to bloat that list.

As much as impact traditionally applied to melee armor counters, those "impact" weapons were usually spiked, and puncture damage is the armor counter in this game, so puncture should have the marginal armor reduction.

Impact having a functional destabilizer which allows execution moves fits best on it, and it allows players to benefit from "Mercy" set ups, where pretty much nothing else guarentees it. 

[ZarTham]

2 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

As much as impact traditionally applied to melee armor counters, those "impact" weapons were usually spiked, and puncture damage is the armor counter in this game, so puncture should have the marginal armor reduction.

Impact having a functional destabilizer which allows execution moves fits best on it, and it allows players to benefit from "Mercy" set ups, where pretty much nothing else guarentees it. 

Ah yes, Finisher Moves in a game where you press 1 and kill everything... Makes total sense!

[BahamutKaiser]

Hey, are you hating on my acrobatic kills? We don't do it for the kills, we do it for the stunts bro 😎

[Xzorn]

To understand how status became what it is you'll have to take a trip down memory lane to Damage 1.0

The first and probably most important difference was Armor. Every unit was armored in Damage 1.0 and the entire purpose of weak points was they were unarmored locations. It's the reason Corpus humanoid helmets come off. The first few shots would hit the armored helm then the head would be exposed.

The major flaw of Damage 1.0 was Puncture damage which bypassed armor. This was actually carried over to Damage 2.0 but isn't as noticeable due to the armor changes. Slash bypassing Armor likely came from the "Serrated Blades" damage type which was majority on melee weapons and is not to be confused to Armor Piercing gained by mods like Piercing Hit that only let a portion of your damage ignore armor and was not required with good aim. In this version Poison would also bypass Armor btw.

At any rate Damage 2.0 came out flawed and veterans called it out years ago but it was never fixed. What you have now is a revamp of status effects but that's only part of the Damage System which is still and will probably remain flawed. I guess they tried but enemies are more a joke than ever before.

In many ways I preferred Damage 1.0. Having to aim. Only a few enemy units causing problems. Finishers made sense. AoE wasn't broken.
Sadly both Warframe and Path of Exile took that turn to one-tap and a crowd of enemies dies but least Path doesn't try to force my play style.

[BahamutKaiser]

I wish they would bring back more interactive armor, they don't need to have break away armor and all, but it's a little silly that Corpus are completely unarmorred while Grineer scale up mostly armor rather than balance more toward health. 

As a side note, I wish they would turn all robotic health orange, and make armor an overlapping bar on health, that way you can see it peel back from the health bar as you killed foes. I suppose that would conflict with damage that removed health without eliminating armor, but they could switch whichever bar is shorter to the front. It would be helpful to have a visual indication of how much armor your interacting with, the same applies even to Tenno.