Railjack is actually fun to play

[Surbusken]

Game engine wise it's kind of impressive, it works and it doesn't crash.

Everything outside that, needs a total overhaul, everything.

First thing they taught me, when I did a speedrun to the last planet for max payout, is stay off the turrets.

Everyone starts playing railjack, gets on a turret and starts clicking the buttons, wasting captain's abilities, and they shoot down the tether. After that you jump into the arty gun and waste the ammo there.

So your options are infuriating the captain or stand around with nothing to do.

That's just not particular clever design...

There is litereally not one single thing whatsoever in all of railjack, that makes any kind of sense, "I see what they were thinking with this", not one.

Minus the grinding which is always hilariously transparent.

[Culaio]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

Railjack was already Soloable before they nerfed stuff - NPC Crewmates and Command shouldn't be a replacement for Humans though, then that's the same thing as you're complaining about now (extra Humans offer no significant value).
Solo or not though, Railjack had a steep entry curve, but a good ending one. the entry curve should just be not as steep. Solo Railjack was pretty enjoyable, harder than with other Humans, but totally doable and that was about right. 

the Pilot should not be limited in an offensive capacity to just pointing the Consumable Weapon and shooting toothpicks. again, previously things were working quite well in Railjack - the Pilot was capable of dealing Damage, but your Gunners outnumber you and so them being involved was triple the DPS so obviously preferable. but you were fully capable of participating in the Combat alongside them, you weren't just the Taxi Driver. 
one Player is only able to delete half the Enemies in the Mission at once because of how much everything was nerfed.

 

i wouldn't be against Railjack having more than one Ship involved with it, for example if the Gunship style Frigate wasn't the only Ship type and there was also a micro Carrier, or whatever else sounds very unique.
so some Players could prefer one Ship to have maximum dakka to delete things, while another to fly a Tank of a Carrier that has deployable Fighters.

I know it was solable before but you are acting like it was well balanced before which it was NOT, well geared railjack could already delete huge amount of enemies in instant with single ability use, some abilities were ALWAYS too strong, best geared railjack pretty much didnt need any repairs or to have gunners to kill enemies. Railjack will always suck because DE wants player playing railjack to feel POWERFULL(something DE scott said in one interview), to keep the power fantasy. so future of railjack is Pilot feeling powerful while rest of crew feels like doing ground mission where one player has nuker frame(the old style nuker frames that needed even less effort then more modern nuker frames) that kill everything before rest of team can kill a single enemy, a boredom simulator, with one difference being you arent just stuck doing single mission like that but every mission as long as you dont use your own ship, which a problem for people like me who dont care about being pilot, who just want to have fun as gunner or ship engineer.

[taiiat]

41 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I know it was solable before but you are acting like it was well balanced before which it was NOT, well geared railjack could already delete huge amount of enemies in instant with single ability use, some abilities were ALWAYS too strong

best geared railjack pretty much didnt need any repairs or to have gunners to kill enemies. Railjack will always suck because DE wants player playing railjack to feel POWERFULL(something DE scott said in one interview), to keep the power fantasy.

even without using the two specific Abilities you're referring to, to AoE wipe Enemies, you could Kill the Fighters in good time Solo, which is right about where it should've been. there's plenty of Enemies after all and previously they were not just single shot from a Lato to Kill, so one Enemy had a bit of relevance.
and since they're Trash Units after all, like 80% of the Fighters that Spawn are literally just different flavors of 'Space Lancer'. making them have boring levels of EHP wouldn't make anything more fun, because those Enemies are simply not mechanically complex enough to warrant it.
but bigger Enemies are always possible, so....

a Railjack that was performing well didn't constantly break down? well, that sounds like a good thing to me. otherwise you're just punished for existing, rather than rewarded for being good.
granted, Repairs give good amounts of XP so you sortof are punished for doing well in a way, but that's a different issue.
if the Engineer role doesn't have a whole lot to do, the solution isn't to make everyone and everything feel worse and less fair. it's to give the role more things it can do that aren't largely depended on if the Squad is performing badly.

[Culaio]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

even without using the two specific Abilities you're referring to, to AoE wipe Enemies, you could Kill the Fighters in good time Solo, which is right about where it should've been. there's plenty of Enemies after all and previously they were not just single shot from a Lato to Kill, so one Enemy had a bit of relevance.
and since they're Trash Units after all, like 80% of the Fighters that Spawn are literally just different flavors of 'Space Lancer'. making them have boring levels of EHP wouldn't make anything more fun, because those Enemies are simply not mechanically complex enough to warrant it.
but bigger Enemies are always possible, so....

a Railjack that was performing well didn't constantly break down? well, that sounds like a good thing to me. otherwise you're just punished for existing, rather than rewarded for being good.
granted, Repairs give good amounts of XP so you sortof are punished for doing well in a way, but that's a different issue.
if the Engineer role doesn't have a whole lot to do, the solution isn't to make everyone and everything feel worse and less fair. it's to give the role more things it can do that aren't largely depended on if the Squad is performing badly.

Well overheating of guns was pretty annoying problem and honestly still is in case of some of guns.

The thing is that ship engineer HAS to have something to do, if its not repairing then he should be restocking ammo for all guns, and no, not just clicking in the forge, he should be restocking ammo for each gun himself. of course in return ammo shouldnt run out as fast as weapons overheat because that would be problem too. while pilot and gunners  in center of action killing enemies, ship engineer is also almost constantly doing something, manging ship and stuff.

There was actually orginally system that ship engineer could manage but DE removed it, it was energy redirection system, moving all energy toward engines to get closer to enemies at start of mission, when moving toward side objectives would be useful, also moving energy toward weapons or shield in specific situations, like maybe some enemy ships have big gun that can break through shield in one shot if shield isnt reinforced.

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Well overheating of guns was pretty annoying problem and honestly still is in case of some of guns.

The thing is that ship engineer HAS to have something to do

you're joking, right? they reduced the Heat so much that the Heat Capacity Mod is now useless, none of the Weapons gain Hat fast enough for that Mod to ever be needed. and subsequently the less Hot Weapon models are just objectively bad.
before the last Heat reduction some of the Weapon models were spicy hot, but not anymore.

absolutely, and there probably isn't enough things to do currently.
Pulsar is a great game in this Genre as far as the non Pilot or Gunning roles having plenty to do. the full on Engineer doesn't actually stay at his Station at all times(which does feature Power routing since yeah that's a common Sci-Fi trope here but it's a good one), there's some stuff to manage at other locations in the Ship sometimes, and sometimes you just straight up don't have Engineer tasks that need to be taken care of, which is okay, because you can just go get on one of the Guns. and since you're not always at your Station that lets there be more 'oh fu-' situations where you're scrambling to get back there.

[Culaio]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

you're joking, right? they reduced the Heat so much that the Heat Capacity Mod is now useless, none of the Weapons gain Hat fast enough for that Mod to ever be needed. and subsequently the less Hot Weapon models are just objectively bad.
before the last Heat reduction some of the Weapon models were spicy hot, but not anymore.

absolutely, and there probably isn't enough things to do currently.
Pulsar is a great game in this Genre as far as the non Pilot or Gunning roles having plenty to do. the full on Engineer doesn't actually stay at his Station at all times(which does feature Power routing since yeah that's a common Sci-Fi trope here but it's a good one), there's some stuff to manage at other locations in the Ship sometimes, and sometimes you just straight up don't have Engineer tasks that need to be taken care of, which is okay, because you can just go get on one of the Guns. and since you're not always at your Station that lets there be more 'oh fu-' situations where you're scrambling to get back there.

There are still some weapons that take longer to kill 1 enemy then it takes to  fill heat bar(I actually experianced it yesterday when I was catching up on nightwave missions I didnt do, which were mostly railjack). In the first place weapon overheat isnt even needed in gameplay like this, there are other ways to balance out gunners, whatever its how much damage guns do, needing to restock ammo(guns of icarus even has different types of ammo, some have bigger damage, other better rate of fire, they even affect rotation speed of turret)  or guns actually possibly being damage from enemy attacks.

ship engineer doing gunner role from time to time is fine but his job mostly should be managing ship, 

 

 

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, Culaio said:

There are still some weapons that take longer to kill 1 enemy then it takes to  fill heat bar

weapon overheat isnt even needed in gameplay like this, there are other ways to balance out gunners

don't know what any of those Guns would be, i've use Zetki versions of everything throughout the lifespan of Railjack from launch to the current state - what Weapon models are you unable to Kill a single Fighter before overheating with?????????

true, we could have Magazines and Reloading and feed racks, with an Ammo store at the spine of the Craft, which would be very AC-130 Gunship style.

[Leqesai]

19 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Game engine wise it's kind of impressive, it works and it doesn't crash.

Everything outside that, needs a total overhaul, everything.

First thing they taught me, when I did a speedrun to the last planet for max payout, is stay off the turrets.

Everyone starts playing railjack, gets on a turret and starts clicking the buttons, wasting captain's abilities, and they shoot down the tether. After that you jump into the arty gun and waste the ammo there.

So your options are infuriating the captain or stand around with nothing to do.

That's just not particular clever design...

There is litereally not one single thing whatsoever in all of railjack, that makes any kind of sense, "I see what they were thinking with this", not one.

Minus the grinding which is always hilariously transparent.

To be fair, the gameplay you describe is really only problematic with a very specific meta loadout that people use to farm intrinsics. On a fully maxed Railjack, where you aren't necessarily speed running Gian Point, there is no need to hyper-focus on the tether builds and restrictive turret gameplay.

Kitting your Railjack to benefit group participation is very possible. Most people do not bother with this, however. And having no loadout slots makes it difficult to swap between solo/speedrun loadouts and fun crew loadouts (turrets+archwing options).

[Surbusken]

12 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

...

Yes that problem is only a problem in the context of itself? Does that make it any less terrible.

By that logic, I wouldn't have any problems with the game, if I uninstalled it. It's certainly only a problem, if you actually play the game. I am sure cancer is only terrible, if you have it?

I actually stopped myself in the last post, rather than going into some giant titan rant worth 35 pages on railjack problems.

But when I say everything, I mean everything.

From the mission timegates to unlock the mode, to the absolutely godawful oversized construction room messing up your dojo, to abilities, to gear, to gameplay. To confusing UI.. it just goes on like that.

Just something like railjack having its own currency you just stacking up, it's pointless, obviously not thought through.

If we assume only a few people would have their own railjacks, as intentional, what possibly point could you have, to have the main currency, be a dead currency to everyone but the captain?

So everyone didn't built a railjack, just aren't going to get paid, that's wonderful.

Then, someone came to the realization, just shooting a turret was kind of dull, so they installed another player's abilities on their loadout bar.

Which then made them realize that would be too much, having 3 people spamming missiles at will, throwing in the forge as a cripple solution. None of it was thought through.

Show me the pitch meeting video of "why it's great gameplay to stand around in the forge and click one button". Do you think the 2 min cooldown was another emergency choice? I do.

Only, no one stopped to ask, is it fun to stand around for 2 minutes with nothing to do? And that's the real problem. The lack of thinking it through.

It's backwards thinking, you try solving a problem by adding another, not even taking note of the validity of the gameplay, 'is this fun,' because you have other priorities to meet.

Playing waframe, down to its core, is ability spam couple with movement spam. Then you come on railjack, shoot a turret for 5 seconds until it locks you out, or go stand in the forge for 2 min.

While you standing there, all you keep thinking is what the #*!% happened here lol.

The best sem-defense, you have for them, is the whole gamemode was obviously rushed and released much too soon. 'Maybe one day', add it to the other abandoned gameplay.

It's kind of sad what they can get away with, when you think about it, aslong as there is mr in it, someone is going to grind it out no matter what.

The whole irony being people are plenty loyal towards just the combat, you don't have to squeeze them by being pitiful.

Are you really so scared to make something effective, you have to wreck all gamemodes? No, no, we must meet the projection of hours grinded. Okay cool, if that's your choice, but then we are going to be talking about it.

On the upside, it works without crashing and we can always hope they will not just let it sit and get away with it being another forced mr grind, people won't play but endure.

I also believe, people actually want, to want, to play it. Which is the real tragedy of it all, I wish the developers had faith in their own content, it can just on its own, and just be fun to play.

Not really optimistic about the new railjack maps myself, seems to me the features and gameplay is staying, with some more gated mr, but we will see, it doesnt' cost anything to hope for the best.

[kubbi]

Here's what I think about it. I've been playing railjack in the last weeks for the mastery points.

Its gets more fun the stronger you get. At first I didnt have fun because I didnt understand anything and warframe has a common habit of not explaining anything so wiki is a must. For example I didnt know about the artillery fire, getting slingshot with archwing and that you could forge things in the back. I thought once your resources reached 0 the game was done for. I didnt know what an omni tool is, later on that you can teleport to your ship with it. I discovered these things thanks to some nice players I played with.

Its more fun with a full squad. Shooting together, working together to destroy the crewships and doing the objectives in the vast open space. The problem is you get very little intrinsics and the best way is to solo to get the most out of it. It should be the opposite for a game mode thats designed to be a team effort. You need a lot of intrinsics if you want to max out your railjack.

Now that I've maxed it out I wont be playing it again. The reason is it offers very little. Barely anyone plays it, when you do play its expected to be a specific way for efficiency in a pub and all the missions are the same. Its a shame. I also like archwing but dont do the missions for the same reason. I might play it to help others through the missions for the weapons but thats about it.

[kubbi]

Just now, kubbi said:

 

 

[Lost_Cartographer]

Introduce void fissures, invasions, liches and kuva siphons to it, and I'll not only have fun, but that fun won't feel like "I could be doing something more productive."  Don't get me wrong, I find it fun now but, uh... I'm not acquiring the latest prime/lich toys in railjack.

Also, more mission types.  Can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd appreciate a "defense" that felt like an escort through the map.

[Imniscor]

I want to pilot my Orbiter not that massive ship.

[Soy77]

On 2020-11-05 at 9:50 PM, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Personally, i hope railjack(off) dies like the other modes DE tried to strong-arm into the game. Wonder if they will ever stop trying to stuff random crap into the game?

you're really hoping that something you've worked for, and spent hours in, dies instead of getting better?

that's a really interesting perspective. you must really hate the thing.

[Culaio]

On 2020-11-09 at 12:30 AM, taiiat said:

don't know what any of those Guns would be, i've use Zetki versions of everything throughout the lifespan of Railjack from launch to the current state - what Weapon models are you unable to Kill a single Fighter before overheating with?????????

true, we could have Magazines and Reloading and feed racks, with an Ammo store at the spine of the Craft, which would be very AC-130 Gunship style.

not sure what weapon its exactly since I pretty much stoped playing after after maxing out intrisics and getting all both for frame and for ship.

I do remember it was in saturn proxima and weapon didnt that great of fire rate, so it may have been apoc, but sure what tier and variant though.

 

I was someone Very excited for Railjack orginally, I knew about it before they announced it, from Steve stream, when he mentioned crewship combat. I was Very excited when devs said that it will be more tactical game mode compared to ground missions, that was something that made me very happy, my excitment died soon before released when steve shown on twitter more fast paced movement including very frequent boosts, also when devs mentioned on devstream removal of energy rerouting system.

At that point railjack become another victim of DE promising one thing and delivering something else.

[VoidArkhangel]

Still waiting for my railjack to pick me up in Orb Vallis : /

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Culaio said:

I was Very excited when devs said that it will be more tactical game mode compared to ground missions, that was something that made me very happy,

my excitment died soon before released when steve shown on twitter more fast paced movement including very frequent boosts

BS - having more complex Movement to engage the Player more does not mean that a game cannot be 'Tactical'. by having more engagement tools it's more capable of achieving that, rather.
but difference between capability and reality.

[FRTE_Ret5o]

It fun to play, we even startet a fleet of our own 

(all 3 were bugged, and cannot be killed, so we had a litle extra fun[ and yes, no more spawned, so we had to bail out])

[Culaio]

15 hours ago, taiiat said:

BS - having more complex Movement to engage the Player more does not mean that a game cannot be 'Tactical'. by having more engagement tools it's more capable of achieving that, rather.
but difference between capability and reality.

I disagree, movement pace needs to balanced to what players can do, if movement/acceleration prevents gunners from doing their job then thats a problem, there is a reason why none of games in style of railjack gameplay have fast paced action, players need TIME to do their roles. we have in game ability to give orders but before boost nerf it was impossible to use it during  mission because  there was no TIME to do so.

Can you show me example of one fast paced game with gameplay in style of railjack ? all the games I know are much slower paced, games like barotrauma, we need to go deeper or guns of icarus.

[taiiat]

 

32 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I disagree, movement pace needs to balanced to what players can do, if movement/acceleration prevents gunners from doing their job then thats a problem, there is a reason why none of games in style of railjack gameplay have fast paced action, players need TIME to do their roles. we have in game ability to give orders but before boost nerf it was impossible to use it during  mission because  there was no TIME to do so.

it sounds like you're the sort of person that doesn't like working together or you're exclusively thinking about Players which do not want to work together, and a Co-Operative centric Gamemode shouldn't be built around being so baby mode that there is no use in working together.
it's funny how you've been harping on about Players performing Co-Operatively, and yet your desired features to get there are "add this bar to limit how well Squads can perform so that every Squad performs at the level of mine" or something.

not really sure what the goal here is, then.

On 2020-11-07 at 4:32 PM, taiiat said:

none of my friends had problems with the mobility why i was flying. granted, i was yno, working together with them and so i was giving them clear shots of the Enemies while avoiding Damage and returning my own fire.
but as usual the Lowest Common Denominator needs to be able to W+M1, i know. but knowing that's how things will always go won't make me happy about it.
or happy that in a Squad that the Pilot has nothing to do but hold W while pointing towards the next Objective.

[(PSN)lydon123]

I love rail jack. It needs more mission types for sure and more reasons to play it. Right now you play it for the resources for helminth and maybe a few rare mods. Would love to open relics in railjack or farm endo and ephemeras. 

[Culaio]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

it sounds like you're the sort of person that doesn't like working together or you're exclusively thinking about Players which do not want to work together, and a Co-Operative centric Gamemode shouldn't be built around being so baby mode that there is no use in working together.
it's funny how you've been harping on about Players performing Co-Operatively, and yet your desired features to get there are "add this bar to limit how well Squads can perform so that every Squad performs at the level of mine" or something.

not really sure what the goal here is, then.

Dude what you are on about ? Its oposite its because I want to work together with other player that pace of action is important, maybe if you were in premade team with everyone using voice chat you could manage faster pace but in average team you need enough time for players to issue commands and stuff, previous boosting frequently made it impossible for gunners to do their job, especially when pilot boosted on tight turns.

There is a reason there is no fast paced co-operative games about being part of crew of ship, guns of icarus, barotrauma, we need to go deeper, all those games are as slow and some even slower then current railjack. The more  system there is on ship to manage the more time crew needs to do all of those things, what you are asking for would only work in very simplifed  co-op crewship game.

DE cant balance game mode around 1%(or maybe even less)  of players who only play in premade teams using voice chat.

[Hierarch777]

What I'd like for a Railjack expansion:

-new mission types (obviously) 

-new regions (Neptune Proxima is confirmed to be one of them)

-Corpus (confirmed in last devstream) 

-new armaments (railgun turrets and  plasmor wave ordnance, for example) 

-new avionics (all 3 types) 

-new RJ skins

-Steel Path Railjack

-Invasions in Railjack

-A timed event like Thermia cracks on Venus

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, Culaio said:

DE cant balance game mode around 1%(or maybe even less)  of players who only play in premade teams using voice chat.

that's fine, good Co-Operative games have elements that naturally work together, rather than forcing them. that lets those games do cool things without pulling away from the Co-Operative aspect.

you could be pushing for that, but you're... pushing for a "everyone has to be limited to my level" sort of solution, which is a pretty bland way to go about things.
it's funny that other Co-Operative games can be setup well enough that Players communicate and work together even without a single word spoken, but according to you Co-Operative play is extremely difficult and complicated to perform.

:)

[Loza03]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

it's funny that other Co-Operative games can be setup well enough that Players communicate and work together even without a single word spoken, but according to you Co-Operative play is extremely difficult and complicated to perform.

In fairness, that does depend on what sort of co-op. Monster Hunter, a game that I've found works quite well for this, has been described as 'four soloists playing together' - everyone already kind of knows their role since it's built-into their chosen weapon. Same thing for Overwatch and TF2 (with the caveat of the enemies being players). Railjack's roles are much more discrete, and aren't intuitive like that since every player is equipped for every role.

Still, better communication tools would probably go a long way. Something as simple as a ping would go a long way. One that says 'I'm manning the guns' or 'Repair crew ready' or 'Loaded into the Slingshot - give me a target!' Perhaps even using the Operator calling over comms. We have something like this but A: it can only be sent via the clunky tactical menu and B: it only conveys what you want others to do, not who is where and doing what and C: you need to unlock it first.