Glaive Revisit Workshop

[DroopingPuppy]

Well, is there any plan to bring back quick melee then?

[ConsumerJTC]

Okay, so did some tests in SP and the room using the new Wolf Sledge with a bloodrush-crit/heavy build.

Its #*!%ing nutty, cleaves through heavy gunners health in half in a throw and double dips on explosions.

Then there's the heavy attack trigger that you can do afterwards.

Alongside the fact that you can quickly build up combo counter with it, id say that its the most powerful "glaive" in this update.

 

[Kaggelos]

Hi,

After some testing and some pretty extensive playing around with the Glaives (my favorite weapon class based on stance animations alone), I've noticed that sometimes whenever I try to do my regular combos, my Glaive keeps throwing itself at my enemies, inconsistently I might add. As if if I hold the melee button (left mouse click for me) for more than a 10th of a second, it launches it self (the throw sound even plays itself repeatedly). All that in melee mode.

Also, as far as I can tell, this doesnt happen in the Simulacrum, its pretty fluid and consistent there (therefore my testing had to be done during missions).

Thanks again DE

[(NSW)Aplier]

This update finally just hit console, so excuse the late feedback, but I have to say the new glaive throwing being only from hold-melee is unwieldy as ****.  It may work fine with mouse and keyboard where you have many extra buttons and fingers to do things, but that's not the case for controllers where the thumb has to do the majority of the work.  For heavy attack builds where you want to be detonating the glaive manually, I have to quickly swap between hold-melee and heavy attack over and over and it's near impossible to consistently time it for a short distance detonation due to the travel time between buttons, and is far more exhausting the thumb.  Especially when you take into consideration that the thumb also has to steer the camera, which it can not do while being forced to constantly hold down the melee button between every throw.  Compare all that to the previous just a quick tap/double tap of the heavy button which can easily be done with minimal interruption of aiming your camera, and is far more gentle on the thumb.

"Quicker and more intuitive" is absolutely incorrect.  This control scheme is not a change to be excited about with exclamation marks!  Please give an option to revert it to the old style, or better yet to separate heavy attack and alt fire so that you don't have to give us this cramped, unwieldy setup due to needing to accommodate pistol and melee in the same moveset.

[Lutesque]

Hang on....

Am I seeing this right ? Someone remembered that Glaives exist :O.... And Power Throw is getting buffed too ? :O

I mean.... I'm already using Glaives Prime as my main weapon along side Zenistar but maybe now I won't be the only one any more :)

doesnt help The Xoris though :( 

On 2020-12-10 at 2:17 AM, (NSW)Aplier said:

This update finally just hit console, so excuse the late feedback, but I have to say the new glaive throwing being only from hold-melee is unwieldy as ****.  It may work fine with mouse and keyboard where you have many extra buttons and fingers to do things, but that's not the case for controllers where the thumb has to do the majority of the work.  For heavy attack builds where you want to be detonating the glaive manually, I have to quickly swap between hold-melee and heavy attack over and over and it's near impossible to consistently time it for a short distance detonation due to the travel time between buttons, and is far more exhausting the thumb.  Especially when you take into consideration that the thumb also has to steer the camera, which it can not do while being forced to constantly hold down the melee button between every throw.  Compare all that to the previous just a quick tap/double tap of the heavy button which can easily be done with minimal interruption of aiming your camera, and is far more gentle on the thumb.

"Quicker and more intuitive" is absolutely incorrect.  This control scheme is not a change to be excited about with exclamation marks!  Please give an option to revert it to the old style, or better yet to separate heavy attack and alt fire so that you don't have to give us this cramped, unwieldy setup due to needing to accommodate pistol and melee in the same moveset.

Ah yes.... I forgot to factor in Controllers... These changes rarely ever go well for us :(

[Asrer]

Hello, there are still unintentional throws when doing light attacks, please fix this. Glaive stances are basically useless at the moment. 

[Wolfchild07]

So the cedo auto-targets enemies...around corners. Meanwhile if you throw a glaive it can miss an enemy right next to it. Same goes for Nezha's chakram. Please allow thrown glaives and Nezha's chakram to do the same as the cedo.

[MrAccident]

@[DE]Connor It has been a little while since I have played but I noticed the glaive changes right away. They mess with the flow of combat with them way too much, they are my go to choice of melee weapons especially dual wielding comboing status effect with the glaive detonation and even melee attacks. Allowing melee combos with duel wielding is a nice change.

How ever binding alt fire to the detonation instead of leaving it to pressing melee again while it flys through the air for detonation messes with the flow of combat on several levels. With the secondary weapons duel wielding you can not shoot out alt fires as the glaive is out flying through the air preventing any other combos such as using the Cyanex alt fire to unload heavy status in to one enemy as the glaive flys back to the user. Same with primaries that have alt fires for example if I shoot out grenades from the Penta and I throw out a glaive throw to do damage or attack someone in a different direction I get changed to having the melee out instead of my primary so my alt fire gets changed to my glaive then having me to change weapons twice once to get in to dual wielding then again to get in to primary finally being able to use the alt fire blowing up the grenades. By time this is completed just about anything that I would have wished to do using the alt fire of the Penta or other primaries that have alt fires would be out of the question. Talking to several people in game that I know use glaives regularly have told me the same thing as well that the change messed with the weapon combos they use in game if they have glaives equipped due to the lack of general consistency.

Pressing melee again to bring the glaive back instantly is nice how ever detonation did that already before so I do not see the reason to have that be a thing. It could easily be made so that the que for melee works the same with the user holding melee to throw, press melee for detonation and if they wish to que the melee then when they press to detonate they hold it till the weapon comes back and then it throws out the melee once more. It may be a bug as well or I missed it in the update notes when I tested it if the detonation would mess with the que I threw the glaive prime in to a wall bouncing it back into or next to my body blowing it up inside me and I did not get staggered at times just giving me the glaive out right instead of stagger as if I could not be and I was able to do that several times in a row before getting staggered and most were not even near my body that staggered me. If you keep that with the glaive then the melee que detonation would be no problem and allow combos with detonations in front of the user.

I did some small testing and almost immediately with the alt fire too when throwing out the glaive for a charge throw and trying to detonate right away is inconsistent even mashing it to make sure it blows up right away it sometimes does not go off till around 17 meters away or anywhere between that all the way to in my body. At times out right canceling the throw all together and I was able to recreate that several times as it is inconsistent I believe it is a bug but it may also be tied to the inputs maybe thinking it wants to use an alt fire for a weapon that is not equipped that is not a melee weapon at the same time over riding the throw but this is just a guess.

If  you wish to have me make clips of any of the things I have said regarding bugs let me know and I will send you them as soon as I can.

[Redpaws]

Finally gave glaives another go since the changed system (mainly due to the new Mark Of The Beast mod), and most of the gripes with the changes have already been said here, but might as well give my input on them as well.

Light attacks will sometimes start "rapid throwing" the glaive instead of swinging it. Might need to have the minimum charge for throwing increased slightly, or just remove 'partial charge' throws completely.

Key for detonation changing for no good reason if used with a secondary. Just make it always detonate using the heavy melee button, instead of using the alt fire key when used with a pistol. There's really no reason for the key to change, and it really messes with the flow as you'll sometime try to detonate the glaive with the wrong key before you realize you're using it with/without a pistol. This is definitely the thing I have the biggest issue with.

And a third that isn't directly related to the new glaive system, but rather a glaive mod...
Let Combo Fury refresh its duration on melee kills. For weapons with long sustained fire, you can't even make full use of the mag size increase as the effect wears off before you've gone through the extra mag capacity. Alternatively double the duration to 24s, but I'd rather be able to refresh it to encourage weaving between shooting and throwing.
Example of where this is an issue: Sepulcrum with Lethal Torrent has a fire rate of 1.6, a mag size of 90 (uses 2 ammo per shot) and a reload of 4s. You proc Combo Fury, reload speed is doubled, takes 2s to reload it with 180 ammo, you have 10~ seconds left of the buff where you can fire 15~ times/use 30 ammo before it expires and the mag drops back to 90, removing all extra ammo left over. Some of the high capacity, slow/medium rate of fire kitguns also runs into this problem. Being able to simply refresh the buff while it's still active would solve this.

Mark Of The Beast also feels slightly too hard to trigger reliably, though not sure how to fix that without ruining the whole "666" schtick it got going.

 

Should probably add what I like with the changes too!
Being able to use glaive combos even with a pistol is really nice. The consecutive throw mechanic flows nicely (when you're doing it on purpose instead by accident :P), and it's quite fun to use with the pistol boosting mods. Combo Fury with a Pax Charge Rattleguts is especially fun! Unfortunately runs into the problem above where I don't get to make full use of the mag size increase before the buff expires. But the reload speed buff still works really well with my playstyle of shooting until I run dry, then swinging my melee until the gun has recharged.

[Redpaws]

I've found another small issue, this time with visibility. Though I'm not sure if this was the case before the glaive changes or not.

When using a glaive + pistol combo, the gun is brought closer to the center of the screen, as well as being slightly more pointed towards the center, which makes the muzzle flash/heatwaves more blinding. A second issue is that when using a glaive + pistol, the hitmarkers goes away, which coupled with the muzzle flash being more blinding, makes it much harder to tell if you're hitting those headshots or not.
 

Without glaive. Heatwaves does not cover target, orange markers shows hits, red markers shows headshots.

 

With glaive. Heatwaves now completely covering and distorting the target, no hit markers to tell if I'm hitting the head or body.

The aiming with glaive animation could use an adjustment so the left arm points more to the left, and the hitmarkers should be added back in.
Edit: The gun is significantly angled to the right when using gun + glaive, which is the cause for the muzzle flash completely obscuring the target. This is especially easy to see with larger pistols, like Sepulcrum and Ballistica Prime. Again, the arm animation needs to be adjusted to fix this.

Gonna repeat it again cause I can: Make detonating the glaive always use the heavy attack button (or at least a toggle option for it), and allow Combo Fury and Mark Of The Beast to refresh its duration while the buffs are active. Also maybe give a small audio/visual cue for when Mark Of The Beast triggers? Like a small growl sound effect, a flash of red around the hand(s), just some way to know it has been triggered without having to rely on the buff bar.

Overall been having fun with glaives, so hoping these minor issues gets resolved.

[Kaggelos]

Hi,

Glaives still keep being thrown during regular combos.

I still cant use the weapon class.

[Kaggelos]

On 2021-09-26 at 5:45 PM, Kaggelos said:

Hi,

Glaives still keep being thrown during regular combos.

I still cant use the weapon class.

Problem still persists somewhat, not as much though. Don't know if it's a mouse, setting or attack speed or game issue.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

19 minutes ago, Kaggelos said:

Problem still persists somewhat, not as much though. Don't know if it's a mouse, setting or attack speed or game issue.

Just to make sure, one of the glaive movesets throws the glaive during the normal attacks. Could this be related or cause the problem you have?

I don't use them myself because I don't like to use my gun in the left hand (it looks stupid with beams which I use the most), so I can't really test it.

[Kaggelos]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Just to make sure, one of the glaive movesets throws the glaive during the normal attacks. Could this be related or cause the problem you have?

I don't use them myself because I don't like to use my gun in the left hand (it looks stupid with beams which I use the most), so I can't really test it.

I try to make sure not to throw them. As for the combo, im not sure, doesnt it depend on the stance?

You might be right tho. But it still should throws the glaive, which it shouldn't.