Please, please, please tell me if I've misunderstood the Steel Essence changes in the last Devstream

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Most of the items already have no value. Cosmetics are a once and done and are already cheap.
That leaves just Kuva and Relic packs. Kuva doesn't really have an easily definable worth due to the rng of rivens, so it will always be demanded. Relics packs are mostly worthless with the exception of when a new PA arrives due to the fact that mission rewards are already saturated with relic rewards.

And unless Acolyte spawns are very common, it won't be a significant boost in endurance

Then what's the bother with how fast you get a literally worthless item, then?

This whole debate hinges on Steel Essence being valuable, on being a commodity worth gathering large quantities of. But, if as you say, it isn't, because its only value comes from the acquisition of single-use or poorly-definable items, then endurance runs are just for intrinsic value, because you're literally being awarded useless tokens. And Endurance runs being done purely for the intrinsic value is a good thing. But that means that Endurance players shouldn't be considered as part of the standard progression, because they're willing going outside the bounds of that standard progression.

 

Also, I've literally stated what the spawn rate would be. 6 per five minutes, which is an average of 1 Steel Essence per 0.83 minutes.

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

so i'll likely get less essence but not have to waste my entire day at the same node farming the same S#&$ and maybe have fun trying something different here and there that sounds fine to me tbh. it also might be a little tougher with the acolytes jumping in here and there so steel path getting a little bit tougher.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Then what's the bother with how fast you get a literally worthless item, then?

This whole debate hinges on Steel Essence being valuable, on being a commodity worth gathering large quantities of. But, if as you say, it isn't, because its only value comes from the acquisition of single-use or poorly-definable items, then endurance runs are just for intrinsic value, because you're literally being awarded useless tokens. And Endurance runs being done purely for the intrinsic value is a good thing. But that means that Endurance players shouldn't be considered as part of the standard progression, because they're willing going outside the bounds of that standard progression.

 

Also, I've literally stated what the spawn rate would be. 6 per five minutes, which is an average of 1 Steel Essence per 0.83 minutes.

You've stated what you think the rate should be (as have I in my pessimistic take).
And I didn't say it was worthless. I said that most of the item shops have little value, and one has poorly defined value, as in some groups consider it worthless, while others place high value on it.

What you are saying currently is that Steel essence gain rates are too high in endurance and too low in non-endurance. Your proposed solution is to excessively nerf endurance gains while making non-endurance gains marginally better.

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You've stated what you think the rate should be (as have I in my pessimistic take).
And I didn't say it was worthless. I said that most of the item shops have little value, and one has poorly defined value, as in some groups consider it worthless, while others place high value on it.

What you are saying currently is that Steel essence gain rates are too high in endurance and too low in non-endurance. Your proposed solution is to excessively nerf endurance gains while making non-endurance gains marginally better.

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

but I'd need an Acolyte with a guaranteed essence drop every 1-2 minutes to match my current solo farm. It would need to be every 30 sec - 1 min to match PC afaik.

An average drop rate of 1 per 0.83 minutes (in reality, 6 every 5 minutes) is faster than your current solo farm, and on-par with the PC one.

[BornWithTeeth]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

proposed solution is to excessively nerf endurance gains while making non-endurance gains marginally better.

Making non-endurance gains massively better. Steel Essence drops outside of endless missions at a rate of basically none, maybe getting one or two drops every couple of missions through random chance.

So, between five and a dozen Essence drops in an hour’s non-endless run, of several different missions is actually a huge change.

 

 

However... @Loza03 is there a source which confirms that it’s six Acolyte spawns per rotation? Because I didn’t hear them say “All the Acolytes will spawn every five minutes,” and that strikes me as unlikely.

[McVccMM]

1 hour ago, Jukantos said:

I cannot help but feel this is Viver and Draco and T4 Survival and SO many other Lootcaves all over again.

A new set of rewards are being plugged onto an existing mechanic so the existing efficient farms get hard-patched out, rewarding the people who have stockpiled and punishing those who have not. What was the point in making Steel Essence be affected by (paid!) resource boosters, if it'll now become a freakin mission reward from Kuva-Siphon-Like missions with no actual drop chance? I did not stockpile Steel Essence and now i'm gonna get screwed over for it. I honestly despise Steel Path Gameplay because it combines the non-fun of exclusively melee-wailing on everything because no gun kills fast enough with constantly being oneshotted if i'm not Inaros. So it's basically a "Mash E on Inaros" Mode, which i was happily avoiding grinding more than necessary with a bit of "Khora in the hole".

And now this. ANOTHER removed "lootcave". This. S#&$. Kills. Player. Motivation. If you don't bend my arm behind my back by tying Mastery into Teshins Weekly Store (don't you dare) i'm just not going to touch this. And my friend who's sitting on a 15000 Steel Essence stockpile is going to be having a victory *bleep*. Also there goes my easiest access to Kuva. Yay.

I just don't get it anymore. Does your internal data really bear out that sticking EVERYTHING on rotations from Siphons to Anomaly Shards to the weekly quests to the Glassmaker tasks increase player retention? If anything it makes me run away from the game after grabbing THE most important stuff every week.

I don't wanna start the game i've loved 5000 hours of, take a look at a Kanban Board of tasks like i'm logged into my Dayjob and choose which one of the modes with actively unfun gameplay i'll go into for the most enticing rewards 

That's a Formula for Anthem or Avengers, not Warframe. Please stop doing this. I always feel like an idiot for not stockpiling S#&$ that isn't fun to obtain because "challenge" seems to equal "Being oneshot" and "Being restricted to Melee only".

Edit: Just heard from a friend that the Steel Essence farm is screwed anyway because Enemies now run away from the corners that are efficient to camp for farming. Great. Screw me for not stockpiling i guess. Again.

Feel you, i just came back to this game, and i didn't even had a time to farm it before changes :s

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

However... @Loza03 think s there a source which confirms that it’s six Acolyte spawns per rotation? Because I didn’t hear them say “All the Acolytes will spawn every five minutes,” and that strikes me as unlikely.

Ah, that's a misunderstanding.

This was a suggestion I made - I suppose I should have made that context clearer.

[(PSN)Primed-Lax]

I’m all for adding in the possibility for players that don’t like endurance runs or don’t have the appropriate setups to have easier access to steel essence. I just don’t see why possibly nerfing it for the endurance players is the appropriate way to go. 
 

This just seems like more favorability to new players and more disdain for the endgame players who would like a payoff for the time investment. 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

9 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Making non-endurance gains massively better. Steel Essence drops outside of endless missions at a rate of basically none, maybe getting one or two drops every couple of missions through random chance.

So, between five and a dozen Essence drops in an hour’s non-endless run, of several different missions is actually a huge change.

That assumes you'll see Acolytes every mission.
 

 

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

An average drop rate of 1 per 0.83 minutes (in reality, 6 every 5 minutes) is faster than your current solo farm, and on-par with the PC one.

that's 230 essence per hour. Bit of a far cry from 72. (This was PC)



One of my own Solo runs. 150 essence an hour. Double your proposed rate

[McVccMM]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)Primed-Lax said:

I’m all for adding in the possibility for players that don’t like endurance runs or don’t have the appropriate setups to have easier access to steel essence. I just don’t see why possibly nerfing it for the endurance players is the appropriate way to go. 
 

This just seems like more favorability to new players and more disdain for the endgame players who would like a payoff for the time investment. 

100k kuva in an 1.5 or 2 is just dumb, there should raise the price at least 

[Loza03]

Just now, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

That assumes you'll see Acolytes every mission.
 

 

that's 230 essence per hour. Bit of a far cry from 72. (This was PC)



One of my own Solo runs. 150 esence an hour. Double you proposed rate

I formulated that compromise suggestion based on the information you provided. 

Why didn't you provide accurate information from the outset?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I formulated that compromise suggestion based on the information you provided. 

Why didn't you provide accurate information from the outset?

Because I was working off numbers from memory. I haven't farmed essence for around 3 weeks.
Forgot how lucrative it was.

[(PSN)Primed-Lax]

3 minutes ago, McVccMM said:

100k kuva in an 1.5 or 2 is just dumb, there should raise the price at least 

Why? The riven rolling system is rng based, you could literally roll a riven with that 100k kuva and come out with +imp +dmg to infested. That’s why the efficiency of SE farming feels good, I actually want to farm kuva instead of it feeling like a waste of an hour for 6 trash rolls in kuvival. 

[Loza03]

Just now, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because I was working off numbers from memory. I haven't farmed essence for around 3 weeks

Fine.

On that note, 464 essence is more than every single cosmetic in the shop, plus 20 Relic Packs or Kuva packs, or 29 stance forma. Why do you need so much, especially since you acknowledge how low-value the other options are? Again, this debate does rely on the rate of Steel Essence being all that important in the first place. I don't care if it's just bragging rights, because more power to you, but having considered this angle, I'm genuinely at a loss as to why this is so big of an issue?

[(PSN)Primed-Lax]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Fine.

On that note, 464 essence is more than every single cosmetic in the shop, plus 20 Relic Packs or Kuva packs, or 29 stance forma. Why do you need so much, especially since you acknowledge how low-value the other options are? Again, this debate does rely on the rate of Steel Essence being all that important in the first place. I don't care if it's just bragging rights, because more power to you, but having considered this angle, I'm genuinely at a loss as to why this is so big of an issue?

Because it’s the most efficient kuva farm in the game

[Loza03]

Just now, (PSN)Primed-Lax said:

Because it’s the most efficient kuva farm in the game

Of course...

[nadeemh]

Just now, Loza03 said:

Because it’s the most efficient kuva farm in the game

Can I just reiterate that not all of us are doing endurance runs for Kuva.

[sitfesz]

4 hours ago, nadeemh said:

For context, I love this game and have played every day for the past few years (three or four years - lost count). I've maxed everything (MR 30) and can solo everything in the game (except for Steel Path Tridolons). What keeps me playing is endurance runs. Steel Path has become my default game mode and doing hours of survival is what I, personally, call fun. Everything else I do (aside from exploring new content when it's available) is to build a better setup for longer and better endurance runs.

Earning Steel Essence from Eximus enemies is basically my goal. The longer I stay, the more Essence I collect. I was thankful for this when it was released. Finally there was something for players like me and I was under the impression that DE did this specifically for us. Steel Path was released at a time when it felt like DE was only pandering to the new players and leaving the rest of us out in the cold.

But it sounds as though this is being nerfed. Is it true that Steel Essence will ONLY drop from Acolytes? That would mean a maximum amount of Essence per run regardless of how long I stay in a mission.

Also, it takes me around 5-10 minutes to kill Stalker in Steel Path mode. Abilities are disabled, my frame gets one-shotted (no point building for non-ability survivability against level 1000+ enemies) so I have to use only my operator and amp for survival. When Stalker has turned up in time-critical missions I simply let him kill me so I can get on with the mission otherwise the entire endeavour would wasted. If Acolytes are going to be the same then not only are my Essence drops in survival limited, I would not be able to fight the Acolyte AND keep life support up so I would have to forgo the Essence in order to maintain life support and complete the mission resulting in ZERO Essence from favourite game mode.

Please tell me that I've misunderstood all of this and that I'm getting angry and upset over nothing.

Your problem is noticed by me and I can understand that, however I can not support, because while I'm an old player and have almost everything in the game, I really don't like long runs. Endurance runs are maximum 40 minutes to me, because I get bored spamming the same stuff on that one loadout. I don't like steel essence, because it is not only a gear check, it is a patience check and if I liked that kind of monotomy, I could have gone to a factory to even earn money.

DE probably won't make steel essence to acolyte exclusive, but they will end the steel path exclusivity by making it farmable from acolyte sources. Yes, this will hurt endurance players by moving them out of exclusivity to steel essence, but this isn't the only reason this could backfire on older players.

Why don't they just create a token system of steel essence that gives X token at the end of a steel path mission, or at the end of an endless rotation, spiced up by a lesser drop rate of eximus enemies for the endurance runner? Steel path is dead except for endurance steel essence farmer nodes. There is no reason to use that starchart, because if you don't play endless stuff on a premade, you get nothing.

There are tons of ideas, even I have tons of ideas to not make steel path another island, but to a harder mode for those who seek more, so lets not lose all that potential that it gave us.

I want it to give endurance runners more (as every mode supposed to), while I also want to make steel path to be my default mode, but nowadays it's just not worth it, but mostly I just simply can't, because there is no SP fissure, SP lich, SP syndicate and others.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Fine.

On that note, 464 essence is more than every single cosmetic in the shop, plus 20 Relic Packs or Kuva packs, or 29 stance forma. Why do you need so much, especially since you acknowledge how low-value the other options are? Again, this debate does rely on the rate of Steel Essence being all that important in the first place. I don't care if it's just bragging rights, because more power to you, but having considered this angle, I'm genuinely at a loss as to why this is so big of an issue?

Because all that's left for me is either riven rolling, researching enemy stats, or discovering weapon oddities/bugs.
Turns out getting "good" rolls burn a lot of kuva when you have a lot of rivens.
My issue is not that I don't want essence to be more accessible, its that what gives me enjoyment will be overly nerfed. I am ok with a reduction to essence gain in endurance so long as it isn't harsh (I'd put harsh at a reduction above 25%) and that the corresponding buff to non-endurance is significant

[McVccMM]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Primed-Lax said:

Why? The riven rolling system is rng based, you could literally roll a riven with that 100k kuva and come out with +imp +dmg to infested. That’s why the efficiency of SE farming feels good, I actually want to farm kuva instead of it feeling like a waste of an hour for 6 trash rolls in kuvival. 

Cuz it actually destroys market for rivens? Rivens are meant to be unicate high risk high reward thing. But with this much kuva there is basiclly no risk. You will always make money out of it. And in the long run riven prices will be stupidly disgusting low. On kurvival u had to spend over 10 hours to make this amount of kuva. Now u can make it in a fkin hour 

[McVccMM]

2 minutes ago, nadeemh said:

Can I just reiterate that not all of us are doing endurance runs for Kuva.

But most of the people do, it's easy money which isn't healthy for market in any way 

[nadeemh]

1 minute ago, sitfesz said:

Why don't they just create a token system of steel essence that gives X token at the end of a steel path mission, or at the end of an endless rotation, spiced up by a lesser drop rate of eximus enemies for the endurance runner?

We do have that though in Arbitrations. The enemies are less chunky there which is the drawback.

But I would absolutely love Steel Path fissures! That would be the best!

[nadeemh]

Just now, McVccMM said:

But most of the people do

I'll take your word for it. It's a shame because there's a lot more to the game than Kuva farming.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, nadeemh said:

Can I just reiterate that not all of us are doing endurance runs for Kuva.

Then why DO you need that much Steel Essence.

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because all that's left for me is either riven rolling, researching enemy stats, or discovering weapon oddities/bugs.
Turns out getting "good" rolls burn a lot of kuva when you have a lot of rivens.
My issue is not that I don't want essence to be more accessible, its that what gives me enjoyment will be overly nerfed. I am ok with a reduction to essence gain in endurance so long as it isn't harsh (I'd put harsh at a reduction above 25%) and that the corresponding buff to non-endurance is significant

Then maybe it's not a problem with Steel Essence.

Maybe it's an issue with the game itself. That the actual gameplay, not the content or rewards or anything, is not appealing to long time players. Because as people have said, this isn't the first time this whole song and dance has played out.

 

DE introduces something.

People figure out a cheese strat - probably one that's pushing the boundries of a definition for 'action game'.

DE has either compensated for this with absurd grind or hasn't. This leads to either padding from forced grind or content droughts.

People protest.

DE fixes the issue.

Opposite camp protests.

DE has already fixed what they percieve is the issue and moves on.

 

We're in a state where both sides are unable to co-exist. And it doesn't have to be this way. Proper balance, engaging game design, a higher skill ceiling and a satisfying skill curve towards that - these are all things that games in the Action/RPG genre have used to engage both sides of the audience spectrum, and consequently those in between.

[sitfesz]

1 minute ago, nadeemh said:

We do have that though in Arbitrations. The enemies are less chunky there which is the drawback.

But I would absolutely love Steel Path fissures! That would be the best!

Imagine having steel path arbitration where you can also farm murmur, so there is a chance to get your lich spawned. All that in enemy level and modifiers being additively pushed by each of those modes. Now that would be endgame - and by that I mean simultenously farming multiple stuff, but against A LOT harder enemies. Well this is what DE doesn't want at all, because some players could do this, ridiculously reducing the time sink, while other players would complain it's too hard and they are being left out of it.

Just see the people who actually do multiple trilodons are "metaslaves", while the "casuals" are just joining into a tridolon bounty and get carried by the "metaslaves" who couldn't find a party in time and they are fine almost soloing it.