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Please, please, please tell me if I've misunderstood the Steel Essence changes in the last Devstream


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2 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So playing a game mode as expected counts as an exploit now? Eximus spawns rising the more rotations you do is a natural game mechanic. Interception happens to be a game mode where you can do rotations very quickly. But sure, playing interception is an unintended mechanic. 

If the content is beyond the point of balance it is an exploit since you make use of something that is broken and unintended. As I said, that doesnt mean it is a bannable offense or a case where the player should be punished for utilizing it.

The balance of steel essence just doesnt center around interception, so the yield from the mode is not what people should expect. If it was a case where it was just slightly more efficient than the other modes it would be a different thing, but currently interception is 10 or more times as efficient as the runner up which is survival. Not only that, but it is also consistant as you've shown, while in survival you might get a handful of essence in the first 45 minutes.

People that use it as some form of norm for essence drops are just fooling themselves when they start stressing about acolytes and no more eximus. There was not a snowballs chance in muspel that interception was going to stay as the very extreme outlier it currently is. There is a massive difference between 5 and 70 essence over the course of 40 minutes.

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There is nothing stopping you from still doing the endurance runs you're just not going to be rewarded for it which, really, Warframe has never rewarded that so that's nothing new its just how the game you choose to play has always worked.

 

I think these changes are happening because steel path is basically very dead atm.  It was popular the first couple weeks then died almost entirely.  For some players that didn't like or weren't able to do the endurance runs the essence drop rate was too low they gave up and didn't bother with it for those that can do the endurance runs they bought everything teshan had within 1 to 3 missions.  So almost everyome, in one way or another, was done with it in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

 These changes are likely  are likely just to make people play it more.   For the people that didn't do endurance runs they will see their rate of getting Essence increased those who did endurance runs to buy everything the first week their Essence rate will go down.   I'm not too concerned I doubt they're going to add very much to teshin so getting enough Essence to buy everything will still likely be very easy... in fact I probably have enough in reserve already to buy everything new.

 

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

it is an exploit since you make use of something that is broken and unintended.

What is unintended. Interception just has a higher Eximus rate. How is taking advantage of higher density unintended.
Is taking advantage of ESO's high spawn rate and enemy density for XP farming unintended?
Other endurance missions can yield good results, but just require more time due to a slower ramp up. Interception is just the mission with the best ramp up.
Blame survival for not seemingly not actually reaching a 20% eximus spawn rate like its supposed to as per 

(its more like 12-15%).

And I'm not against Acolytes dropping Essence. If they allow for shorter runs to have better drops that's great. But I don't want longer runs to get heavily penalized for this change.
So leave it as an eximus drop, adjust some eximus rates as needed (preferably buffing the rate and or ramp up for modes that would benefit from it), and have accolytes be an addition, not a replacement.

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3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont find it odd that 40 minutes of Odin yields 70-80 essence when 40 minutes of survival yields barely a handful?

To be fair, prior to the ophelia nerf, the standard for rates was 200-250 per 2 hours, which puts the average rate for 40 min right about 66.66-83.33 (so basically the range for the values)

---

Although the main question is why is DE nerfing kuva rates again, even with kuva requiem survival the rates are awful. Steel path endurance at least give a far more reasonable rate.

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11 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What is unintended. Interception just has a higher Eximus rate. How is taking advantage of higher density unintended.
Is taking advantage of ESO's high spawn rate and enemy density for XP farming unintended?
Other endurance missions can yield good results, but just require more time due to a slower ramp up. Interception is just the mission with the best ramp up.
Blame survival for not seemingly not actually reaching a 20% eximus spawn rate like its supposed to as per 

(its more like 12-15%).

And I'm not against Acolytes dropping Essence. If they allow for shorter runs to have better drops that's great. But I don't want longer runs to get heavily penalized for this change.
So leave it as an eximus drop, adjust some eximus rates as needed (preferably buffing the rate and or ramp up for modes that would benefit from it), and have accolytes be an addition, not a replacement.

What is unintended? That interception yields what it does in such short bursts. It is simply out of whack by a wide margin compared to everything else. Long runs likely wont get penalized by this either, since long runs arent even something to worry about when it comes to the most rewarding mode currently. And for the rest it will likely be the same if the occurance of acolytes if often enough. It will probably be better aswell since you wont be pinned into 1-2 specific frames to pull off the kills needed, which IMO is the best part of the coming changes.

19 minutes ago, Leyers_of_facade said:

To be fair, prior to the ophelia nerf, the standard for rates was 200-250 per 2 hours, which puts the average rate for 40 min right about 66.66-83.33 (so basically the range for the values)

---

Although the main question is why is DE nerfing kuva rates again, even with kuva requiem survival the rates are awful. Steel path endurance at least give a far more reasonable rate.

But it is not nearly as efficient and cant be done in the same bursts. When you are done with an interception you've only just barely started to get the drops in survival which has about a 45-60 minute ramp up time before you see any notable essence drops with a frame that has insane kill rate. That is what makes interception such an outlier, it just took people a long time to realize it. Not to mention that a long interception run nets more than the long survival aswell, you cant compare 40min to 120min due to scaling and peak applying to long interceptions aswell.

 

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5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What is unintended? That interception yields what it does in such short bursts. It is simply out of whack by a wide margin compared to everything else. Long runs likely wont get penalized by this either, since long runs arent even something to worry about when it comes to the most rewarding mode currently. And for the rest it will likely be the same if the occurance of acolytes if often enough. It will probably be better aswell since you wont be pinned into 1-2 specific frames to pull off the kills needed, which IMO is the best part of the coming changes.

So the solution is a life for a life when both could coexist.
Like I said, make Acolytes an addition instead of a replacement.

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Im actually glad about theses changes too, after igot the bishamo armor (85 Steel Essences) i didn't find anything worth getting/farming steel essences for, also to me is boring staying more than 1 hour in a single mission just to farm some resource, adding more stuff to Tenshin shop ( i wish i wasn't rotational though ) and making non-endurance runs farm more viable is very welcome to me.

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Honestly after 2 planets cleared and no essence at all. This is bs.

I just want some of the cosmetic bits i do not play games for challenge and mobs being sponges isn't fun.

Have everything possibly drop essence at a meh like 10% rate. And garuntee x essence for a mission completion.

Problem solved.

Edited by (PSN)Kakurine2
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21 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So the solution is a life for a life when both could coexist.
Like I said, make Acolytes an addition instead of a replacement.

That wouldnt solve any actual issues with the system. 

Just look at what @Jarriagawrote, nothing else needs to be said realy regarding why the changes are a very good idea and why simply adding acolytes to the current system would solve nothing. The only thing adding acolytes would do would be to make it so highest efficiency goes from solo Khora or Baruuk to Khora plus whatever duo-partner frame serves acolyte killing the best depending on how strong they turn out to be. Heck it could have just turned out as a massive increase in essence aswell if Khora could just insta poop on them.

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10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That wouldnt solve any actual issues with the system. 

Just look at what @Jarriagawrote, nothing else needs to be said realy regarding why the changes are a very good idea and why simply adding acolytes to the current system would solve nothing. The only thing adding acolytes would do would be to make it so highest efficiency goes from solo Khora or Baruuk to Khora plus whatever duo-partner frame serves acolyte killing the best depending on how strong they turn out to be. Heck it could have just turned out as a massive increase in essence aswell if Khora could just insta poop on them.

? How does it follow that keeping eximus drops while adding Acolytes doesn’t “solve” your issue. You’re basically saying that 1 + 1 = 1 instead of 2.

Acolytes aren’t going to be a massive increase to endurance farms if eximus drops are kept likely. You’d need them to be swarming you constantly in order for that to happen.

And so what if keeping both sweetens endurance more. It’s still a beneficial addition for those that don’t want to do it. Making it an addition harms no one and benefits everyone, while making it a replacement harms a group.

And not being as efficient =/= being punished.

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1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

? How does it follow that keeping eximus drops while adding Acolytes doesn’t “solve” your issue. You’re basically saying that 1 + 1 = 1 instead of 2.

Acolytes aren’t going to be a massive increase to endurance farms if eximus drops are kept likely. You’d need them to be swarming you constantly in order for that to happen.

And so what if keeping both sweetens endurance more. It’s still a beneficial addition for those that don’t want to do it. Making it an addition harms no one and benefits everyone, while making it a replacement harms a group.

And not being as efficient =/= being punished.

You clearly dont see the issues that the current system brings, so it is kinda pointless to try to explain it to you. I bet my left nut that what Jarriaga said went *swoosh* over your head. Just adding moar wont solve the issue of the system that he raises. We'd still be stuck with the same button mashing frames to have any form of efficiency just as it is now. Sitting in a corner spamming a button for 2 hours straight isnt exactly fun gameplay. Acolytes will remove that since killing wont be nearly as important as it is now. So you'll be able to bring frames that can manage survival well due to other reasons that just having a massively inflated kps ratio.

People will actually be able to bring Nekros for a reason to SP survival again even though he kills alot slower than Khora, same deal with pretty much any other frame aswell aslong as you are comfortable with using life support towers (which people for some reason are allergic to and see as a fail). Currently we dont even have a handful of viable farming frames for SP since they just dont kill enough, even though those frames are more than viable or top tier for the modes in general.

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4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You clearly dont see the issues that the current system brings, so it is kinda pointless to try to explain it to you. I bet my left nut that what Jarriaga said went *swoosh* over your head. Just adding moar wont solve the issue of the system that he raises. We'd still be stuck with the same button mashing frames to have any form of efficiency just as it is now. Sitting in a corner spamming a button for 2 hours straight isnt exactly fun gameplay. Acolytes will remove that since killing wont be nearly as important as it is now. So you'll be able to bring frames that can manage survival well due to other reasons that just having a massively inflated kps ratio.

People will actually be able to bring Nekros for a reason to SP survival again even though he kills alot slower than Khora, same deal with pretty much any other frame aswell aslong as you are comfortable with using life support towers (which people for some reason are allergic to and see as a fail). Currently we dont even have a handful of viable farming frames for SP since they just dont kill enough, even though those frames are more than viable or top tier for the modes in general.

I get his issue. What I don’t get is why the existence of eximus drops invalidate Acolytes. If it’s because it’s more efficient, that’s not a reason. 
Any farm except maximum efficiency would be a punishment under your paradigm.
And your solution is take make everyone suffer, instead of leaving what is fine alone and adding help to those who need it. 
It’s akin to seeing one kid has a toy while the other doesn’t and deciding the solution is take away the toy and give both a dirty rag.

Like I’ve said before, inefficiency does not mean punishment. 

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This change has the only purpose to nerf Steel Essence

No matter how beautiful you try to put with words, no matter what DE said it is the purpose of those charges, it is just a simple nerf. This forum community, it is really a shame that is full of dilusional people that can't stop defending DE no matter what they do. They let their imagination work and come with beautiful excuse on why DE do things instead of simple seeing how things are.

People were already doing parties to farm Steel Path, there are a lot of missions that people don't play, but this is not just on Steel Path, it is in every other copy paste content of the Star Chart missions, people don't do those missions because their rewards are horrible for the time you spend on them, and they are not funny, Star chart missions are not funny anymore. That's what happen with Arbitatrion and with fissures, there are game modes that are just more rewarding to play. And DE know that.

If they really had the intention to bring people to other nodes, they would and should have charged them in some way.

With Steel Essence, you could get relics for new prime itens with so much less time on RNG on missions, and the kuva income was lowering the price of Rivens making them more accessible, in other words, there was only good things with Steel Essence, and people here, in this forum, in this community, are in favor of this nerf, this is a shame. It is dumb, it is so dumb.

DE do a lot of money from Riven indirectly, and also from Prime access, with easier relics from packs means less people buying prime access maybe. This is just a nerf because Steel Essence is hurting them a little finacially, cause of Riven and maybe from Prime Access income.

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3 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I get his issue. What I don’t get is why the existence of eximus drops invalidate Acolytes. If it’s because it’s more efficient, that’s not a reason. 
Any farm except maximum efficiency would be a punishment under your paradigm.
And your solution is take make everyone suffer, instead of leaving what is fine alone and adding help to those who need it. 
It’s akin to seeing one kid has a toy while the other doesn’t and deciding the solution is take away the toy and give both a dirty rag.

Like I’ve said before, inefficiency does not mean punishment. 

I don't think we have the same perception of what the issue is.

The issue is the existence of the gap due to farming efficiency. Adding the Acolytes only increases what you get on the lower end, but it does nothing for narrowing the gap. Otherwise the problem remains as I would still be thinking "I would get more as Khora". @SneakyErvingot my sentiment right.

In the new revision, both Khora and Gauss are equalized. The inherent advantage Khora has is significantly lessened.

Edited by Jarriaga
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9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think we have the same perception of what the issue is.

The issue is the existence of the gap due to farming efficiency. Adding the Acolytes only increases what you get on the lower end, but it does nothing for narrowing the gap. Otherwise the problem remains as I would still be thinking "I would get more as Khora". @SneakyErvingot my sentiment right.

Now you gonna still be getting a trash ammount as always, but now you gonna be happy with it because everybody else is too, got it.

 

Tell me how people playing efficient in Steel Essence farm is affecting your daily gameplay in Warframe in anyway.

Edited by MPonder
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58 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think we have the same perception of what the issue is.

The issue is the existence of the gap due to farming efficiency. Adding the Acolytes only increases what you get on the lower end, but it does nothing for narrowing the gap. Otherwise the problem remains as I would still be thinking "I would get more as Khora". @SneakyErvingot my sentiment right.

In the new revision, both Khora and Gauss are equalized. The inherent advantage Khora has is significantly lessened.

So the solution is to kill good rates because you’re envious of it? 
The sentiment is easily reversed. With the changes I’d be thinking “I could have gotten more if it hadn’t been changed”.

Your argument boils down to hating the rich because they are rich. 
Hating a Philips head screwdriver because a flat head can do the same and more.

Apply the same argument to other resources. Do you think “I would get more as Khora” because she has an inherent advantage when farming polymer? Should it only be a drop from boss enemies so Gauss has the same advantage?

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55 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So the solution is to kill good rates because you’re envious of it? 

I'm a Khora main and have been long before PS existed. That doesn't change the fact that I like to play other frames and don't want to feel punished for doing so. 

Stop projecting.

55 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The sentiment is easily reversed. With the changes I’d be thinking “I could have gotten more if it hadn’t been changed”.

Your argument boils down to hating the rich because they are rich.
Hating a Philips head screwdriver because a flat head can do the same and more.

Yes. As with many solutions tied to equity, the concessions made tend to affect those who are already at the top.

DE can't please everyone, so someone will inevitably get the short end of the stick while they do what they feel is best for their game.

55 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Apply the same argument to other resources. Do you think “I would get more as Khora” because she has an inherent advantage when farming polymer? Should it only be a drop from boss enemies so Gauss has the same advantage?

Yes or no on a case by case basis. It's unreasonable and constraining to expect absolutely everything to work under the exact same principles 100% of the time. DE introduced TSP not to farm Kuva, but as a higher difficulty tier. It just happened that the game could be optimized to the point of nullifying all other Kuva sources to such a degree as to make them worthless by comparison. Dedicated sources, mind you. Kuva Survival. Kuva Disruption.

Alternatively, they could have just removed Kuva outright from the store.

But this conversation is going nowhere. It's obvious you don't see the gap itself as a problem. DE do. Many other people do. You don't. So you are not willing to accept any proposed solution that decreases the gap to a noticeable degree.

Edited by Jarriaga
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20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes. As with many solutions tied to equity, the concessions made tend to affect those who are already at the top.

Removing good farms doesn’t make bad ones good, it just lowers the bar. 
 

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

nullifying all other Kuva sources to such a degree as to make them worthless by comparison. Dedicated sources, mind you. Kuva Survival. Kuva Disruption.

Because they have absolute garbage rates. Like still steaming it’s so bad.

Should certain Arbitration modes be nerfed because they have a higher essence to time ratio? They surpass dedicated modes for kuva after all.

24 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

you don't see the gap itself as a problem

I see heavily nerfing the top as the issue. The gap is problematic yes, but bring up the bottom and reign in the top a bit, don’t kill it.

What happens when you only get an Acolyte every 20 minutes. Is the farm better now? 1.1 is higher than 1 yes, but not in a meaningful way.

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В 07.11.2020 в 13:08, Gamariio сказал:

You all talk about Kuva for the steel path, but for us, player over 2000 hours on it, what interests us is ENDGAME. Everyone makes their own endgame, it's true, but the steel path (with the eximus drop) made it possible to FINALLY give an interest in doing more than an hour of mission.
I remind you that the Steel Path is not hard for players like us. The difficulty becomes interesting when the mobs are level 1000.
Currently, if they remove the eximus, stamina will no longer help.
And this content, which was supposed to focus on "advanced" players will no longer be, it will become casual.
And in the worst case scenario, players will just unlock the star map, and no longer do Steel Path, because the drops will be unnecessary, and the difficulty will not exist.

here a little reminder that DE were talking about the steel path:

 

What it isn’t:
- intended to be associated with the nebulous ‘end game’ topic.
- overly complicated in its goal to simply provide higher level content and some exclusive rewards.
- tiered. We are providing one 100+ level pass to be cognizant of matchmaking for our first iteration. 

Edited by Merrcenary
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1 hour ago, Merrcenary said:

here a little reminder that DE was talking about the steel path:

 

What it isn’t:
- intended to be associated with the nebulous ‘end game’ topic.
- overly complicated in its goal to simply provide higher level content and some exclusive rewards.
- tiered. We are providing one 100+ level pass to be cognizant of matchmaking for our first iteration. 

What they are saying is that this mode isn't intended to be an attempt to "solve" the issue of end-game (even though it kinda ended up being a decent end-game activity). Not that it CANNOT be or they don't want it to be. They said that to lower expectations for the mode so players don't get too excited about it. 

 

End game is a good thing. What you are implying is that DE did not want to introduce good things, which does not make any sense.

Edited by Orokin
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People are complaining that they cant be done with SP fast enough by gaming the system. It seems to me that DE is saving you from yourself. Youre not really enjoying playing endless for hours on end if the only reason you do it is to farm SE. You should be relieved if DE nixed eximus SE drops. 

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My hope is that this is added into the Deimos: Arcana Test Cluster this weekend, and that what they choose to do instead of removing them from Eximus is just add these new methods of getting them, rather than taking away the Eximus one. Now I get the idea - it makes it easier to get Steel Essence more quickly since you can just do a rescue/capture/sabotage now to get Steel Essence, but it really just makes it feel like that will now be the only way to get SE. It feels like, yet again, the masses complained about something that clearly wasn't meant for them, and so the goalpost was completely shifted from endurance runs to speed runs, and there's no room in the middle for endurance runners, so unless these Acolytes spawn really frequently and drop a good amount of Steel Essence, it'll feel like a slap in the face and as if there's no reason to do endurance runs anymore.

Tl;dr - Please just add these as another way to get Steel Essence rather than requiring these to be the only ways to get them, or maybe lower the chance to get them from Eximus to maybe 1% rather than the 2% it is now? idk, just don't ruin the endurance way of getting them. 

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17 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Removing good farms doesn’t make bad ones good, it just lowers the bar. 

I never said or wrote it would make them good. If you don't think they are good-enough then request for those farms to be made better.  

17 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Because they have absolute garbage rates. Like still steaming it’s so bad.

See above.

17 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Should certain Arbitration modes be nerfed because they have a higher essence to time ratio? They surpass dedicated modes for kuva after all.

Quoting myself: Yes or no on a case by case basis. It's unreasonable and constraining to expect absolutely everything to work under the exact same principles 100% of the time.

17 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

I see heavily nerfing the top as the issue.

That's a consequence of addressing what DE and many others see as the issue: The gap. Addressing the gap comes first. If you don't like it, fine. But based on the sentiments expressed from the introduction of TSP, myself included:

On 2020-07-13 at 1:22 PM, Jarriaga said:

So pretty much getting as much as you can to work in your favor. That's not how baselines are set. Optimizing for one of, if not the best possible scenario just means that everyone else gets the shaft if they are trying to get rewards for just playing the game. I am yet to unlock Eris in TSP, but once I do I don't expect even 1/4 of your results after 2 hours of playing with Gauss, Wukong, or Valkyr.

So even if you manage to beat the challenge, you're punished for using the wrong frame.

That was me back in July. So just because you don't think the gap is a huge priority problem doesn't mean it isn't true for many others. 

17 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What happens when you only get an Acolyte every 20 minutes. Is the farm better now? 1.1 is higher than 1 yes, but not in a meaningful way.

Not better, but fair for most. The point is making it equal, and you can not make it better for those at the bottom without further rewarding/boosting those at the top because those at the top would still be getting what they get at the top + the bottom bonus unless the ceiling is lowered, which is what DE decided to do.

If you can think of a way of rewarding those who do a 2 hour TSP Mot run with Nyx or Zephyr without benefiting Khora then be my guest because that's precisely DE's train of thought, and they are more likely to listen to you if you actually present a solution that directly addresses what --they-- see as the problem to a significant degree. If your solution does more to keep the status quo than to address the problem then it will be ignored.

And honestly, I don't think your problem is how this affects Steel Essence per se, but rather your Kuva problem. Considering the actual TSP rewards are one-and-done, I think DE should just remove Kuva from the store and save themselves from misguided expectations on what TSP was meant to be as per DE's own words on record. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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