Two handed nikanas.. rework? Please

[DekaBit]

So we were blasted with two handed nikanas like Tatsu.The weapon looks amazing, the stats are.. okayish, the riven disposition also okay, the stances are..Trash making the weapon bad, the nikana has big potential but since it cannot do..great nobody uses it, we got two handed nikanas and tbh nobody uses them because no matter what you put on it.. the stance is the same.. can we get more stances or something.. or just forgget the weapon.. you guys seem to be proud of it.. showcasing it over and over again in the loading screen.. 

[Loza03]

They are apparently working on a new Two-Handed Nikana Stance, according to the recent devstreams. They finished the Warfan stance, so possibly they also got the Nikana one too.

 

It's a pity, it used to be one of the best stances in the game...

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, DekaBit said:

the stances are..Trash making the weapon bad, the nikana has big potential but since it cannot do..great nobody uses it, we got two handed nikanas and tbh nobody uses them because no matter what you put on it.. the stance is the same.. can we get more stances or something..

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's a pity, it used to be one of the best stances in the game...

As the most casual MR29 in the world, what exactly is wrong? I mean I know the first swing of the combo has an annoying windup, just like old Sundering Weave and Cleaving Whirlwind, but that's pretty easy to remedy with stuff like Arcane Strike

[Reed_McCloud]

Trying not to sound edgy here;

2h nikana, imo, suffers from a design philosophy that DE tends to lean on a bit too heavily. That being "looks>gameplay feel".

From a display point-of-view, 2h nikanas look great and look really cool in use. However, from a gameplay perspective they are nearly useless. With the stance 2h nikanas currently use, you are pigeonholed into single-target attacking unless you build for heavy attack (but then you run in to a whole slew of other problems). The multi-flip attack at the end of the forward combo is a massive waste of dps.

Nodachi's were used to take down cavalry as the extra blade length allowed you a much wider horizontal attack. If someone could manage the side-flip-attack, the blade would just hit the ground and either break or just get stuck.

DE Geoff and his team need to do more practical research in how the weapons were actually used in order to gain insight into how they can make these weapons have better feedback. (Don't @ me with "Warframe is a fictitious space ninja vidya game", I'm not a complete idiot, I understand it isnt a 1:1 for what is realistic.)

[Hierarch777]

Imo, they're just a bit too slow. That's about my only gripe with them. 

[Prexades]

Wait a minute, the stance is one of the best in the game. I don't care about an animation lock, but if you execute the spinning maneuver with the standing attack you will hit the target multiple times, quickly raking up the combo counter and afflicting status.

Seriously, leave Wise Razor alone.

[Reed_McCloud]

22 minutes ago, Prexades said:

Wait a minute, the stance is one of the best in the game. I don't care about an animation lock, but if you execute the spinning maneuver with the standing attack you will hit the target multiple times, quickly raking up the combo counter and afflicting status.

Seriously, leave Wise Razor alone.

Multiple strikes on the same target doesnt mean a lot when most enemies die in 1 or 2 strikes. Even in steel path (which the majority of the playerbase does not play regularly), the multi-hit spin puts you in more danger than it does help you.

Fact is, you use a melee to maintain your mobility as you go through mobs. 2h nikanas do not compliment a mobile playstyle.

So you either end up over-damaging a single target and waste dps, or you are forced to lose mobility and put yourself at risk. Either way, 2h nikanas (in comparison to heavy blades) don't supply you with any meaningful balance.

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that this is Warframe, so most content won't pigeonhole you into using specific weapons. However, if you can get more out of other melees, why would you nerf yourself like that? To look cool? That's not enough of a reason to me.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

As the most casual MR29 in the world, what exactly is wrong? I mean I know the first swing of the combo has an annoying windup, just like old Sundering Weave and Cleaving Whirlwind, but that's pretty easy to remedy with stuff like Arcane Strike

For me, it just kind of feels unresponsive. As far as I'm concerned, how a stance feels is far more important than how much damage it deals. Also, I'm personally not a big fan of how the big, flashy swings are the first parts of the combo and the more 'normal' swings are later. It's just unsatisfying to use for me.

If you like it, more power to you.

[TARINunit9]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

For me, it just kind of feels unresponsive. As far as I'm concerned, how a stance feels is far more important than how much damage it deals. Also, I'm personally not a big fan of how the big, flashy swings are the first parts of the combo and the more 'normal' swings are later. It's just unsatisfying to use for me.

If you like it, more power to you.

To clarify, I actually do agree with you about that. Like I said, I hated Sundering Weave back in the day, and Cleaving Whirlwind was a one-trick pony compared to the much more fluid Tempo Royale

But in the modern day and age the meta -- rife with Khora, Mesa, subsumed Warcry, subsumed Marked4Death, and everyone running R6Arcanes thanks to Scarlet Spear -- has devolved melee to a point where Stances really only exist to give you 10 free mod capacity. If you're actually using your melee at all, and you're at the point where you care about Rivens (which OP does) part of your build is dedicated to attack speed, negating most animation-based downsides

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

I mean stances are there to give you options but since this only has 1 then there's bound to be people that won't like it of course. They just need more stances

[(PSN)DidacoJack]

Pretty much what I will always say in every thread about Wise Razor: the damn flippety flip at the start of the normal combo.

Please, give Wise Razor a Tactical Combo and slap that move there. Please. Please.

 

Please?

It was so good when melee 2,9997 dropped and that damn move was at the end of the combo.

Don't get me wrong, animation wise it looks amazing, it  just doesn't sit right at the beginning of a combo.

 

 

Please?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 hours ago, DekaBit said:

tbh nobody uses them

you say that, but I've seen plenty weebs in relays carrying Tatsu or Pennant on their back. 

the Stance is a problem though, it's slow and the sword- flipping part of the combo takes too long, it's like Reaping Spiral 1.0 all over again. apparently they are working on another stance, I'm hoping for one that has some faster light cutting moves and bigger sweeping strikes, I feel that with the blades looking much lighter on THNs than Heavy Blades, they should be a little faster, but maybe not hit quite as hard in terms of raw damage per hit. a good middle ground between fast Nikanas and Swords, and the hefty, damaging heavy blades like Galatine Prime. 

also, Rapiers, Blade & Whips and Nunchaku need some love too, they still only have one stance each.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

Yeah I don’t like the flow of the stance too much. It’s not as bad as the pole-arm stances (all three of which are gross), but what really annoys me about it is the hitbox of the swings is weirdly precise, so it’s easy to miss a target standing 2ft in front of you...with an 8ft long sword. Why?

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

you say that, but I've seen plenty weebs in relays carrying Tatsu or Pennant on their back. 

Well that’s not a fair statement at all. You don’t have to insult people for the way they like to play the game.

The stance may be bad, but the Pennant is incredibly strong with a heavy attack build.

[Galuf]

1) the stance is not practical but I can see it beeing usefull for people with half assed loadouts(newbee players) as it does great dps, just in a very unpractical way when you are ahead of the curve, however if you are below the curve and don't waste much hits on your spinny move, it will kill heavies faster than most weapons/stances would.

2) the 2h nikanas are extremly strong on the raw base damage department have an extremly good 360° reach on top of applying bleed. Pennant is atm my biggest dps melee overall, it is very unpractical as most of the time, even in SP the top tier prime weapons are so much ahead. The point is that stances have 0 things to do with heavies.(maybe some have their own animation but at least most don't)

[Prexades]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Cannabininja:

Multiple strikes on the same target doesnt mean a lot when most enemies die in 1 or 2 strikes. Even in steel path (which the majority of the playerbase does not play regularly), the multi-hit spin puts you in more danger than it does help you.

Fact is, you use a melee to maintain your mobility as you go through mobs. 2h nikanas do not compliment a mobile playstyle.

So you either end up over-damaging a single target and waste dps, or you are forced to lose mobility and put yourself at risk. Either way, 2h nikanas (in comparison to heavy blades) don't supply you with any meaningful balance.

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that this is Warframe, so most content won't pigeonhole you into using specific weapons. However, if you can get more out of other melees, why would you nerf yourself like that? To look cool? That's not enough of a reason to me.

Wrong again. Multiple strikes mean a lot, as you can build up your combo counter for Blood Rush and stacking status ialso enhances Condition Overload.

Fact is you are still very mobile with Wise Razor. Only the standing attack has the longer executed spinning attack. It is also at the beginning of the combo maneuver because players like myself were asking for it. Early with melee 3.0 the attack was at the end of the combo and I can assure that the stance performed worse.

Personally I would say that there are other weapons you probably find more enjoyable that also works well in normal missions as well as in Steel Path. If you prefer the standard 1hand Nikana and sword stances it is fine, but don't change the 2hand Nikana to something similar, because the stance is very good as it is.

[Prexades]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Galuf:

1) the stance is not practical but I can see it beeing usefull for people with half assed loadouts(newbee players) as it does great dps, just in a very unpractical way when you are ahead of the curve, however if you are below the curve and don't waste much hits on your spinny move, it will kill heavies faster than most weapons/stances would.

2) the 2h nikanas are extremly strong on the raw base damage department have an extremly good 360° reach on top of applying bleed. Pennant is atm my biggest dps melee overall, it is very unpractical as most of the time, even in SP the top tier prime weapons are so much ahead. The point is that stances have 0 things to do with heavies.(maybe some have their own animation but at least most don't)

1. saying that those with experience with the stance and liking it have only 'half assed loadouts' does not do your argument any favors.

2. As I said, it is not the raw damage. I use the Tatsu with a crit enhancing riven which makes it a great crit/status hybrid. With the combo of Wise Razor and Blood Rush with just a few standing attacks I am in red crit territory and putting status on the enemies left and right.  It has become murder incarnate and I like the stance for both style end effictiveness.

 

[Aldain]

The solution to a clunky stance shouldn't be "Stack so much attack speed that it doesn't matter".

That is where Wize Razor is right now and that is why it's a problem.

[ReddyDisco]

wise razor is a terrible stance yes but you have a solution until new stance is added, remove the stance from ur tatsu and pennant.

now hear me out, it only gives 10 extra mod slots and if you add enough forma then you won't need em and its a 10x speed improvement and comfort, especially on pennat when the passive speed boost activates

[Loza03]

41 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The solution to a clunky stance shouldn't be "Stack so much attack speed that it doesn't matter".

That is where Wize Razor is right now and that is why it's a problem.

It also doesn't change the fact that you have a big delay after pressing the attack button on your 'quick' attack, and your rush in attack - your 'stinger' to use DMC terminology. Even stacking together Berserker and the Pennants innate attack speed buff, there's still a delay from pressing attack and actually attacking. In the original version of the stance, these were finishing moves, so you had a nice lead-up, and it made sense they had their build up - the last, most powerful attacks of the combo. 

[Berzerkules]

8 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

also, Rapiers, Blade & Whips and Nunchaku need some love too, they still only have one stance each.

^^THIS^^

No weapon class should have only one stance IMO

 

 

[SpiritTeA]

Wise Razor is awesome because it gives slaah force proc on heavy attack. Pennant is my favorite melee  weapon with 6 formas (I’ve never put more than 2 formas on any melee weapon)

[ReddyDisco]

4 minutes ago, SpiritTeA said:

Wise Razor is awesome because it gives slaah force proc on heavy attack. Pennant is my favorite melee  weapon with 6 formas (I’ve never put more than 2 formas on any melee weapon)

you get forced slash on hvy attack even without the stance on pennant