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Upgrade Rest of the Game content to "Steel Path" Level for pros.


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6 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Eh... it actually kinda does matter what the player stats are. In the game's current state, a theoretically-perfect, genuinely "interesting" enemy would still get cheesed to death immediately on spawning.

one of them.
but the maximum concurrent Enemies is over 40.

it's a non issue. this isn't Hellblade, individual Enemies do not have any Narrative value, and it's expected for them to be able to be dispatched with relatively quickly. that's why there are dozens of them.

it's not a problem for one Enemy to not be a significant hurdle. just as long as an individual Enemy isn't also just to soak up one bullet either, then it's probably a good middleground.

 

if people are going to copy pasta parrot "you can't have interesting Enemies if you have a variety of Gear" - idk, get real or something. there's just no conversation to be had with people that have decided that Video Games can't be something that their own claims are already defeated by other games that already exist.
it's a real thin knife edge to try and stand on when there's no shortage of examples showing that it isn't true.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

one of them.
but the maximum concurrent Enemies is over 40.

it's a non issue. this isn't Hellblade, individual Enemies do not have any Narrative value, and it's expected for them to be able to be dispatched with relatively quickly. that's why there are dozens of them.

it's not a problem for one Enemy to not be a significant hurdle. just as long as an individual Enemy isn't also just to soak up one bullet either, then it's probably a good middleground.

With that first bit, you make it sound like we can only CC or oneshot a single enemy at a time or something. The "interesting enemies" can come in ones or come in droves, but it makes no difference if they all die/freeze in an instant.

As far as enemy bulk goes, we obviously want high-leveled enemies to fall within that satisfying "middle ground" in terms of time-to-kill, at least for experienced players. But Warframe's problem (well, one of them) is that our damage output varies so ludicrously that this ideal "middle ground" is impossible to define. Even this thread's comments highlight this-- we have a bunch of people saying that Steel Path enemies are spongy and boring, and we have a bunch of other people saying that Steel Path enemies get oneshotted anyways and are therefore boring. Shockingly, none of these people are having fun.

That's why I think a scaling overhaul will eventually be necessary. If the "floor" and "ceiling" of player damage output are brought closer together, then it'll be easier to balance enemy bulk accordingly.

 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

if people are going to copy pasta parrot "you can't have interesting Enemies if you have a variety of Gear" - idk, get real or something. there's just no conversation to be had with people that have decided that Video Games can't be something that their own claims are already defeated by other games that already exist.

it's a real thin knife edge to try and stand on when there's no shortage of examples showing that it isn't true.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Weirdly condescending reply, don't you think? 🤔

I'm sure there are a bunch of more-engaging, better-executed power fantasy games out there. But repeating what I said above-- even if WF's damage variance problem was solved, the difference between WF and those games is that any enemy that doesn't get oneshotted can be stunlocked with the click of a button anyways.

DE could copy-paste a genuinely interesting enemy design from another game, and it would still fall flat because haha rhino go stomp.

Edited by SortaRandom
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1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

With that first bit, you make it sound like we can only CC or oneshot a single enemy at a time or something. The "interesting enemies" can come in ones or come in droves, but it makes no difference if they all die/freeze in an instant.

we obviously want high-leveled enemies to fall within that satisfying "middle ground" in terms of time-to-kill, at least for experienced players. But Warframe's problem (well, one of them) is that our damage output varies so ludicrously that this ideal "middle ground" is impossible to define.

 

Weirdly condescending reply, don't you think? 

which is exactly why plain EHP is not a very useful way to present Enemies.
it's more about the mechanics involved in engaging with Enemies than their Health. give them some of that, but that's really not that important. 

 

i get tired of hearing the same thing hundreds of times per year that was never true in the first place.

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yeah they definetely need to put in steel path arbitrations, then get the rest of the stuff like void fissures etc, and all the other stuff in the menus like. just to upgrade the game to highest level content so all player levels have fun. pros, intermediate, beginners alike. <3

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On 2020-11-09 at 11:35 PM, Merrcenary said:

I thought the steel path was added so that the players could feel the challenge?

but, again, it turns out everyone is whining about the rewards as usual and they don't care about challenge

wf community at its finest

yeah it adds a little more challenge for maxed / high level warframe / weapons as levels can go up to 150+ from something like 30 - 60 in most content. I personally think its really good they just need to expand the arsenal to more of the events in the game the crossfires etc. like all that stuff that didnt get steel path in the star chart yet. Then when they are done with that perhaps they can do an A.I. pass on the game (Artificial Intelligence) and make the games A.I. more responsive / faster for players that set the option like regular difficulties in other games. just a thought. i think it would be swell as a lot of pros and ppl that are intermediate with waframe say this game is easy. it just needs way more difficulty options instead of just a level system. level systems were always kind of easy. difficulty options with A.I. and stronger enemies like say the Kuva lich but maybe more enemies like that that dont take as long to get to but dont require the exact combo but more like a harder fight that can go along with grineer, etc.

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21 hours ago, (NSW)VenTheWeeb said:

I'm pretty sure OP just wants the option to do everything in higher difficulty, you know like most games with a easy - normal - hard options, no need to get salty and call them a tryhard

Then that falls under one of the exact scenarios I mentioned having no issue with. As for the tryhard, a tryhard is a tryhard. Clearly someone chasing after getting their ego stroked via "punish me more" difficulty. Call it "salt" if you want, instead of just being tired of tryhards constantly pushing for everyone to have to do things their way (and some even insulting anything not that way). Wanting every game to go the way of Sekiro, Dark Souls, Nioh, etc. I was around in Warframe when one could get pushed into rage quitting in the very first mission after burning through all revives, almost leading to my uninstalling the game and not going down my give or take 7 year enjoyment of the game after getting past that. Never would I want that to return, especially not because of tryhards.

20 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Buddy why are you so angry? He’s just asking for the option, which you wouldn’t even have to engage with if you didn’t want to. It would just exist for those who want it.

"angry"? No. Tired of tryhards whining cause they want to be able to stroke their own ego's and/or get their jollies rocked via "punish me more" BDSM kick. Also if you bothered to look over the post, the way it was put forward was phrased as to leave interpretation to either: a) future content should be "steel path" level difficult or b) that it should come with "steel path" option. The latter of those I don't have an issue with, the prior I do. 

Edited by CrimsonXX
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11 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

Then that falls under one of the exact scenarios I mentioned having no issue with. As for the tryhard, a tryhard is a tryhard. Clearly someone chasing after getting their ego stroked via "punish me more" difficulty. Call it "salt" if you want, instead of just being tired of tryhards constantly pushing for everyone to have to do things their way (and some even insulting anything not that way). I was around in Warframe when one could get pushed into rage quitting in the very first mission after burning through all revives, almost leading to my uninstalling the game and not going down my give or take 7 year enjoyment of the game after getting past that. Never would I want that to return, especially not because of tryhards.

I can see that you don't want Warframe to be hard but getting all mad because something is hard doesn't make you any better than a tryhard. well getting all mad and demanding that it must be easy that is

Edited by (NSW)VenTheWeeb
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21 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

"angry"? No. Tired of tryhards whining cause they want to be able to stroke their own ego's and/or get their jollies rocked via "punish me more" BDSM kick. Also if you bothered to look over the post, the way it was put forward was phrased as to leave interpretation to either: a) future content should be "steel path" level difficult or b) that it should come with "steel path" option. The latter of those I don't have an issue with, the prior I do. 

I think you got your 'facts' mixed up there pal. These so called "tryhards" you speak of are not whining so that DE would release future content as hard as steel path because lets be honest if that ever happens then no one would even bother to try the game due to the fear factor given by the difficulty alone, but i do agree with your point that DE should implement a hard mode or in this case steel path mode option for all contents, both existing and upcoming. As for tryhards whining for harder content, it's quite the other way around. DE has tried making difficult content but then a massive mob of casuals starts complaining about things being too hard. If you need more proof of this then go check out every Nihil boss complains and then you can see how a lot of them complains about how they "can't parkour very well."

 

From your last two replies on this post i can see that your head must be steaming. My advice is that you take a break from circlejerking the forums, go play some fortnite.

giphy.gif

Edited by GenericAngerSniper
broken record syndrome
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22 hours ago, (NSW)VenTheWeeb said:

I can see that you don't want Warframe to be hard but getting all mad because something is hard doesn't make you any better than a tryhard. well getting all mad and demanding that it must be easy that is

I don't mind it shifting in difficulty, my issue is with it going too far down that path making it essentially a shutout zone for solo'ers and anyone outside of a min-maxer tryhard. I'm also not demanding anything, I'm rebutting the idea of future content going forward being on par with Steel Path instead of having that as its own separate option. 

1 hour ago, GenericAngerSniper said:

I think you got your 'facts' mixed up there pal. These so called "tryhards" you speak of are not whining so that DE would release future content as hard as steel path because lets be honest if that ever happens then no one would even bother to try the game due to the fear factor given by the difficulty alone, but i do agree with your point that DE should implement a hard mode or in this case steel path mode option for all contents, both existing and upcoming. As for tryhards whining for harder content, it's quite the other way around. DE has tried making difficult content but then a massive mob of casuals starts complaining about things being too hard. If you need more proof of this then go check out every Nihil boss complains and then you can see how a lot of them complains about how they "can't parkour very well."

 

From your last two replies on this post i can see that your head must be steaming. My advice is that you take a break from circlejerking the forums, go play some fortnite.

 

First of all, wasn't my suggestion was a possible interpretation of the OP's statement. 

Undoubtedly you:

a) fail to look around anywhere else outside of the forums where there's several people that do whine about wanting hard content and how its a major problem of Warframe's 

b) don't realize how you moot your own point by acknowledging that there is a group of whining tryhards that want harder content. There's some complaints I fully support from casuals, like way back when with the mutalist opsrey being able to fill an entire room with toxin; the bursas completely ruining missions because of how annoying it is to hit their panel weakness while they bombard you; etc. I have some issues with Nihil fight as well though mostly that has to do with the expecting one to remember evidence to strike, while also parkouring around and firing at Nihil himself; I still enjoyed it for the most part.

Funny, cause I'm not even remotely steamed. May need to take a look at a dictionary for the word "angry" followed by "annoyed/aggravated". I find it hilarious how you're trying to hurl Fortnite my way:

a) never played it cause never really been pulled towards it

b) the implication being the insult of casual. I align more to Horizon Zero Dawn, which is fair in its difficulty with 1-2 enemy's that are exceptions. Unlike you I'm not out to stroke my ego and appease a certain fetish. How about you crawl your way to Nioh, Sekiro, Dark Souls, Bloodborne where those games are rigged against the player in order to hit that fetish.

Edited by CrimsonXX
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5 minutes ago, CrimsonXX said:

my issue is with it going too far down that path making it essentially a shutout zone for solo'ers and anyone outside of a min-maxer tryhard

Have you even played Steel Path? The build and gear checks can be met mid-game. There's a wide margin of error and a wide array of viable jank.

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11 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

a) fail to look around anywhere else outside of the forums where there's several people that do whine about wanting hard content and how its a major problem of Warframe's 

Look mate, i've seen people complain about the difficulty issue that warframe has in many different platforms, youtube, reddit, you name it. It is quite a problem for the last 4 years, maybe more. It's a vicious cycle, DE simply can't make difficult or easy content without angering one side or another. OP is just trying to give a solution by adding a hard mode option to the game, that way easy and hard content can co-exist but then you just have to come here bashing this idea, as if you've been playing hydron for the past 6 hours.

 

11 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

b) don't realize how you moot your own point by acknowledging that there is a group of whining tryhards that want harder content. There's some complaints I fully support from casuals, like way back when with the mutalist opsrey being able to fill an entire room with toxin; the bursas completely ruining missions because of how annoying it is to hit their panel weakness while they bombard you; etc. I have some issues with Nihil fight as well though mostly that has to do with the expecting one to remember evidence to strike, while also parkouring around and firing at Nihil himself; I still enjoyed it for the most part.

I do acknowledge the group of "whining tryhards" that want more difficulty but at least the majority of them have a good reason, the lack of an actual endgame, warframe has been in this vegetative state for too long that people begin to confuse veterans with whiny tryhards. The complaints regarding ospreys and bursas being too powerful is to make the game feel fair, because then again to fight bursas and ospreys like that in level 100+ levels and you're going to die swiftly and repeatedly. But the problem that stands now is that when given a slight glimer of difficulty and the 'casuals' start to circlejerk reddit to complain about "how hard the new content was" while sending people off warframe that want a tiny bit of depth at some actual difficulty with different versions of this statement,

11 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Unlike you I'm not out to stroke my ego and appease a certain fetish. How about you crawl your way to Nioh, Sekiro, Dark Souls, Bloodborne where those games are rigged against the player in order to hit that fetish.

regarding them to no more than just toxic soulsbourne players, because apparently everyone who plays something harder than cookie clicker are sweaty MLG 420 noscopers.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Funny, cause I'm not even remotely steamed. May need to take a look at a dictionary for the word "angry" followed by "annoyed/aggravated". I find it hilarious how you're trying to hurl Fortnite my way:

Now this is epic, drive this conversation into talking about my snarky comment, more proof you're steaming than ever. Take this for your future endeavors.

Flame_Repellent.ea1ecc4cf2065e160fa39486

Edited by GenericAngerSniper
adding some stuff
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On 2020-11-08 at 9:38 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Videogames will never cater completely to end game vets and elitists.

How would widening the scope of the Steel Path be catering? It would literally just be free content for essentially no Dev time. Very much a no brainer.

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27 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

How would widening the scope of the Steel Path be catering? It would literally just be free content for essentially no Dev time. Very much a no brainer.

Adding steel path to all of those missions would take time. That's why I said they're probably doing a bit at a time, instead of all at once.

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I don't think upgrading the rest to have a steel path version is asking too much. I do have an issue though because current steel path is not rewarding enough for me to care. However if Teshin has constant good rewards to make it worth while i will constantly be in Steel Path farming.

 

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I don't think that warframe can be made much more difficult in normal missions(i hope it can and will), the game is originally built on the idea of power fantasy. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I have been using 6 forma ignis for last 2 months . I don't even need to aim. This week I played desteny 2 for the first time, and I would not say that the game is difficult. It just requires you to press buttons and not play with one hand in your pants. And I want it to be in the warframe as well, so that each mission makes you focus at least 70%. And not to open lith relics against level 5 enemies,by press the ult on volt, and killing the entire map by pressing one button. 


 
 
 
 
 
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On 2020-11-09 at 9:50 AM, DrivaMain said:

Seriously? Dealing with bullet sponges are challenge? 

If you look around the internet on some forums or any kind of place to discuss games, you will discover that any time someone mentions something being a bore or just plain stupid because of bullet sponges, one-shot BS or other terrible design decisions, certain kind of people start crawling out of the woodwork to say "Don't like difficulty? Too challenging for you? Filthy casuals ruining my game!". They use this... "argument" for everything and it has lost all meaning, except as a joke. I'm not going to bother going through this thread, but i'm sure they are already here, not to mention the beggars howling for better rewards. Can't have "fun" in "difficult" content unless you get more and better rewards.

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5 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

If you look around the internet on some forums or any kind of place to discuss games, you will discover that any time someone mentions something being a bore or just plain stupid because of bullet sponges, one-shot BS or other terrible design decisions, certain kind of people start crawling out of the woodwork to say "Don't like difficulty? Too challenging for you? Filthy casuals ruining my game!". They use this... "argument" for everything and it has lost all meaning, except as a joke. I'm not going to bother going through this thread, but i'm sure they are already here, not to mention the beggars howling for better rewards. Can't have "fun" in "difficult" content unless you get more and better rewards.

Using the term "bullet sponge" is a joke as well. All the tools are available to deal with the sponges. Gauss alone can strip all their armor in an aoe.....there's Nyx, corrosive, heat and viral, Nezhas chakram, rhinos boost, Novas 4, etc etc. 

People using the term bullet sponge is a joke, because these people typically don't bother to mod correctly, to forma, or really do anything that requires actually fighting higher level enemies. 

There have been multiple threads with people that thought they had good builds that fell off in Steel path, and had to be corrected and given advice by others. 

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21 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Using the term "bullet sponge" is a joke as well. All the tools are available to deal with the sponges. Gauss alone can strip all their armor in an aoe.....there's Nyx, corrosive, heat and viral, Nezhas chakram, rhinos boost, Novas 4, etc etc. 

People using the term bullet sponge is a joke, because these people typically don't bother to mod correctly, to forma, or really do anything that requires actually fighting higher level enemies. 

There have been multiple threads with people that thought they had good builds that fell off in Steel path, and had to be corrected and given advice by others. 

This is what I love about modding in Warframe. 9/10 you can prepare for any difficulty. It's the lazy players that complain. 

I only wish shields were more formidable. I rarely have to consider them

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On 2020-11-09 at 3:38 AM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Videogames will never cater completely to end game vets and elitists. They are a minority by nature. 

...but since it's already there in structure, they only need to port the 'normal' contend over... couldn't be that hard.

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3 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

because these people typically don't bother to mod correctly

False. One of the reason why "Bullet Sponge Haters" dislike Steel Path is because it's a strict gear check. Not as strict as Eidolons, but it does make your average off meta weapon or setup to be near unusable. I tried taking my 6 forma Hunter Munitions Battacor and Umbral Chroma to a Solo Steel Path interception. The weapon cannot keep up with the forced max spawn rate and the increased tankiness of enemies and the lack of AoE isn't helping it either.

Meanwhile... I can just whip out Limbo and banish everyone into the rift leaving them into indefinite stasis. Making it a walk in the park.

Enforcing Steel Path everywhere and/or making it rewarding enough to make normal mode irrelevant is just a hopeless wish. Warframe's majority are casual players. DE will not scare them away.

Edited by DrivaMain
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21 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

False. One of the reason why "Bullet Sponge Haters" dislike Steel Path is because it's a strict gear check. Not as strict as Eidolons, but it does make your average off meta weapon or setup to be near unusable. I tried taking my 6 forma Hunter Munitions Battacor and Umbral Chroma to a Solo Steel Path interception. The weapon cannot keep up with the forced max spawn rate and the increased tankiness of enemies and the lack of AoE isn't helping it either.

Meanwhile... I can just whip out Limbo and banish everyone into the rift leaving them into indefinite stasis. Making it a walk in the park.

Enforcing Steel Path everywhere and/or making it rewarding enough to make normal mode irrelevant is just a hopeless wish. Warframe's majority are casual players. DE will not scare them away.

I think the bigger problem there is bringing a Chroma to a game mode that benefits from not killing and instead controlling.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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27 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I think the bigger problem there is bringing a Chroma to a game mode that benefits from not killing and instead controlling.

I believe this example highlights the issue – either bring the wrong tools and you won't be able to do anything, or bring the right tools and trivialize everything. There is no in-between.

I saw people in this thread talk about modding right, which isn't exactly accurate. You have to bring the specific tools to a mission first. That begs the question – is the gamemode that removes the choice from players and pushes them into using a fraction of what is available to us really something that the game needs?

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