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I miss them too but they had to go, given the state they were in. Now I'm just patiently waiting for DE to reintroduce the concept with updated puzzles/maps, if they ever do that. Not everyone's cup of tea but it sure was fun to me.

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Sadly DE doesnt have the know how to make raid-proper bosses or encounters, which in the end is the whole point of making raids in the first place. Nothing in the trials were things that couldnt have just aswell been done for a 4 man group. Them making it "raid" sized groups seems to have just been done so the game could say it had raids, since it was the "thang" at that point in time for online games.

And when a company has issues with designing small 8 man raid encounters that engages the full group you know they shouldnt give it another try. They need to come up with a concept first that actually is engaging for everyone and keeps the full group on their toes. And 8 players isnt alot when there are games out there that manages to engage every member in a raid group of 40 people (or more).

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Raids won't come back for a really long time. Not many bothered to do them, they always broke after updates and getting together and coordinating with 8 players isn't exactly the kinda thing that works well in a game which doesn't need any team work about 99.99% of the time.

And the arcanes were moved so I don't know what could they even offer to us. I guess kuva. That seems to be the only thing everyone always needs.

Edited by JackHargreav
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Back when raids existed i was not excited because i did not have at the time an internet robust enough to handle the load. and witnesses told me of the lagfest it was, of how each hotfix reintroduced bugs assumed fixed a few updates ago.

It was more a social thing than actual gameplay for the fans i knew.

Sorry, but considering my experience in MMOs where the game cannot handle large groups without burning your pc, i know warframe currently can't handle these things and DE is clearly not ready to handle the maintenance upkeep of raids.

Another thing, with so many tools of mass destruction at our disposal, i wonder what kind of challenge would be offered in a raid. Back in the old days, all you needed to win was control. One could guess control abilities were nerfed  and dps oriented gameplay were introduced as a backlash of raid cheese tactics.

Beware your desires.

Edited by renleech
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All they need to do is plop some of their 'big' creature boss designs into a purpose built map. Eidolons and Orbs are basically raids. Specially part one Exploiter Orb. Just the rest of it is extra boring flat arenas. Have the map play a more pivotal roll, and you have a classic raid.

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The biggest issue with bringing raids back is the same issue people scream about for the open worlds dedicated servers, having 8 people get connected to someone's potato that is running DSL while 2 other family members are streaming netflix is not a fun thing, I mean there is a way to ensure that does not happen in your settings but still it is a thing. Patchs break crap all the time so using the "patch breaks it" is a cop out

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1 minute ago, Firetempest said:

All they need to do is plop some of their 'big' creature boss designs into a purpose built map. Eidolons and Orbs are basically raids. Specially part one Exploiter Orb. Just the rest of it is extra boring flat arenas. Have the map play a more pivotal roll, and you have a classic raid.

Part 2 exploiter is possibly the most literal example of a boring flat arena. At least Eidolons sometimes get you to fight on hills.

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Just now, Avadiel_tv said:

Hey ! 
Am i the only one that miss the raids ? I mean gathering up with the team and play every evening ? Things where cool thoses days ...

Have a good one ! (Tik tok tenno !)

 

Yes you are, I quitted Destiny because their damn obsession with raids in detriment of the rest of the whole damn game.

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Raids were a lot of fun but a really buggy mess. The logistics of adding raids back doesn't payout for DE. Every single hotfix or tweak to the game broke Jordas Verdict. Law of Retribution was pretty clean, but felt more like a Walmart version of Portal 2 "Standing on button simulator".

I do miss hopping in call with my 7 friends every night and hoping for that Arcane Grace or Arcane Energize. It was loads of fun and AMAZING credit income.

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I'm personally tired of forced 8+ man raids: yes, they're great for leagues or clans with static groups that actually know what they're doing and execute mechanics robotically. 

For everyone else it's just spending an hour wiping and waiting for people to do 1 thing while they hold everyone up and waste our time. 

Then you have already uninformed, inexperienced, and unimaginative players that "need" certain roles, jobs, or abilities which excludes anyone that doesn't have them or doesn't have the specific build ready.

Then you have your lag, bugs, host migrations during the middle of the raid, losing your loot and wasting your time.

Anyone that has played raids in the past in all the other MMOs knows they are a headache.

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I suspect the closest content we'll ever see like the old Trials is Profit Taker. It's pretty much the exact same setup as Trials were but using the bounty format instead of forcing it all into a single start to finish mission.

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I don't particularly miss raids, but I wouldn't be against them coming back either, depending on how DE approach it. Iso-Vaults had potential as they sort of felt like a "lite raid", or perhaps more akin to a Strike mission from Destiny. I liked them for a while (then the grind got rough), and I think more in-depth missions like that can scratch the itch, without requiring the kind of dedication and setups that proper raids call for. 

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I didn't really mean that the roads were good. Let's face it, they were pretty bad, but I did like the fact that we could gather 8 Tenno every day to play together. The Eidolons where for sure a worse way to get your arcane (too much bright things at once and 0 fun) but at least they needed to be 4 well trained men to complete 5x3 in one hour. And even now Eidolons are not done anymore because of this trash squadlink event... 

I don't want to talk about Profit Taker and Mother Exploiter cause one is a bump festival and the other is just scripted despite DE pretending that there are multiple way to kill it.
I'll just have to keep being nostalgic about those drunk raids we did with my pals I suppose... 

Anyway i enjoyed reading your thoughts about the good old buggy mess that raid where. Thx for your replies.

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On 2020-11-09 at 6:38 AM, (XBOX)V4L4KH said:

Yes you are, I quitted Destiny because their damn obsession with raids in detriment of the rest of the whole damn game.

That and PvP. Lemme just say that learning absorption and retention is HIGHLY subjective between players. And that's not addressing the fact that not everyone likes one (or even both) of those modes.

Raid from D1 pissed me off more than enough times:

  • was perfectly fine with Strikes, and wasn't motivated to do Raid.
    • Raids were required for a few things, sometimes for things that apparently had little to do with Raid, I heard.
  • was fine without the gear that other folks tried to entice me into joining Raid for.
  • PS3's inbox speed was f***ing horrible. Messages came in faster than you could open them, and they were majority for Raid.
    • folks often sent blank invites, and you didn't find out what it was for until you landed
    • folks WRONGLY assumed my 335 Light was from prior Raids, not the Challenge/Elders -- and I started YEARS later than most of them did!

Understandably, I wasn't motivated for D2 raid. But D2 had a month-long raid event requiring completion of it, so I tried it. Saying it went badly doesn't begin to describe it. Remember what I said about subjective absorption and retention? The team was anchored in one area for almost an hour, and I had to quit -- not just because I felt bad for anchoring them, but we had so many GO screens that I had flash blindness.

Which leads to my saying this. For Warframe, Raids are fine so long as it's not forced like Destiny is. If they get forced, I might drop Warframe.

Edited by (PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk
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Destiny have a bad habbit of forcing you into clans and stuff in order to make any significant progress towards the endgame, and everything endgame is about are raids, more so they always claimed that PvP make a fair match for everyone which was disproved in by the perks differences (most of which werent disabled in PvP) of endgame gear with the most common gear (and I´m not even getting into the stat discussion), not to mention the damn RNG that plagues all mechanics involving loot drop chance and the only answer was "all that is available to everyone who completes a raid so get a team an git gud", si my answer was "ok then fku and fkur game not buying sht anymore from you".

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Am 9.11.2020 um 16:28 schrieb SneakyErvin:

Nothing in the trials were things that couldnt have just aswell been done for a 4 man group. Them making it "raid" sized groups seems to have just been done so the game could say it had raids, since it was the "thang" at that point in time for online games.

You are right, i had people in my clan who did Jordas Raid with only 2 or 3 people.

But i dont think its necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it was good to have "backup-people" so new players could learn the (slightly more difficult) mechanics compared to the rest of the game without the ultimate pressure of "if you mess this up now, the whole clan will flame you" 😛 Still, in some parts this wasnt really needed of course.

 

Zitat

And when a company has issues with designing small 8 man raid encounters that engages the full group you know they shouldnt give it another try. They need to come up with a concept first that actually is engaging for everyone and keeps the full group on their toes.

I cannot agree with attitude that just because they messed something up once, they should never even try something like that again.

They shouldnt just remove everything that didnt work out too well (you can see people saying "remove Railjack", "remove PvP", "remove OpenWorlds" etc) but maybe look at what people liked about it. Regarding Raids, they were overly complicated and buggy at some parts, had entry fees, havent been explained or advertised at all in the game, but everyone who did them mostly enjoyed the social aspect of it. And i miss that too.

 

Like you say aswell, with a new concept which removes the bad parts and focuses on the good parts, Raids could be a great addition again.

 

Am 9.11.2020 um 17:00 schrieb Firetempest:

All they need to do is plop some of their 'big' creature boss designs into a purpose built map. Eidolons and Orbs are basically raids.

This is what DE should look at. And today, we basically have 3 of those purpose built maps, the OpenWorlds.

All the caves and interesting structures in those are still mostly unused, which is really sad but and opportunity at the same time.

They do not even have to create new Maps, just start using your OpenWorlds for something like this.

 

If you ask me, i would set it up like this:

Spoiler

General idea:

  • capturing those outposts is the condition to start more difficult and longer missions
  • the players have to capture all outposts first (or a few of them) in a certain time window
  • once all Outposts are captured, the Raid-Mission starts

 

Gameplay:

  • we will have to do one main task and a few side tasks

 

  • Main Tasks Example: Massive Extermination
  • we have to kill "all" enemies on the Plains/Orb Vallis
  • this includes large amounts of Mobs and some Mini Bosses like Raknoids or Thumpers
  • there will be a Hotspot, for example a large cave in the Plains or one of the huge Corpus facilities in Orb Vallis (Spaceport for example)

This will be combined with a few side tasks

  • Side Task examples:
  • unique defense-missions on the different outposts:
  • On the Orokin Dig Site for example, the portal might open and different enemies might come out of it, we have to push them back and close the portal again
  • Spy Missions that will reward us with information about enemy-locations
  • Sabotage Missions that will weaken the MiniBosses of the Main-tasks

 

good Side tasks could be missions like these:

Assault - plant a bomb:

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

- this mission will work like the Assault mission on the kuva fortress

1st stage:

- we have to pick up a bomb and bring it to one of the huge facilities/bridges/caves

- their might be some bombcarrier-mechanic involved just like in the "Law of Retribution"-Raid

 

2nd stage:

- plant the bomb and defend it

- the location where the bomb has to be planted can make this mission a lot more interesting, so for example: We got really tall buildings in Orb Vallis, and the bomb gets planted somewhere halfway up some of these huge structures or completly on top. This means that some players might actually need to be fighting in Archwings to properly defend the bomb because enemys are also flying up there (Dargyns, enemies on dropships, typical Archwing-mission enemies)

 

possible twist:

- we have to plant 2  bombs at the same time and defend them at the same, so the players have to split up a little again and defend different spots

- or: only one bomb, but it needs to get armed via a console that is located somewhere else. the result is the same, the team has to split up, 2 players defend and 2 players search the console and fight there to be able to hack it and arm the bomb.

Aerial Defense:

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen
  • just like in a normal Defense-Mission, you have to defend a stationary target
  • in a bounty, it will take a certain time (~2.30 minutes)
  • The difference to a normal Defense is that we have to play against enemies that are mainly in the air
  • so, we would face the enemies you can see in normal Archwing missions
  • the result would be probably that it is more (long-range)-weapon focussed gameplay instead of Warframe-ability-focussed

 

  • possible twist: Our defense-target is getting picked up by a dropship while we are defending it
  • if its a bounty-mission, it will get slowly but steadily lifted into the air until it is safely deployed in the dropship (kinda like the ambulas on the pluto-boss)
  • that could mean that some of the players need to also equip their archwing to properly defend it
  • possible extra twist: we have to fuel the dropship with energy-cells that get dropped by enemies (like in an excavation mission)
  • in this scenario, players have to pick them up on the ground - equip their archwing - and fly the cells to the dropship

Pretty basic concept, just give us one huge Main task while also giving us some Sidetasks (some could be mandatory to advance while others could be optional).

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1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

You are right, i had people in my clan who did Jordas Raid with only 2 or 3 people.

But i dont think its necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it was good to have "backup-people" so new players could learn the (slightly more difficult) mechanics compared to the rest of the game without the ultimate pressure of "if you mess this up now, the whole clan will flame you" 😛 Still, in some parts this wasnt really needed of course.

 

I cannot agree with attitude that just because they messed something up once, they should never even try something like that again.

They shouldnt just remove everything that didnt work out too well (you can see people saying "remove Railjack", "remove PvP", "remove OpenWorlds" etc) but maybe look at what people liked about it. Regarding Raids, they were overly complicated and buggy at some parts, had entry fees, havent been explained or advertised at all in the game, but everyone who did them mostly enjoyed the social aspect of it. And i miss that too.

 

Like you say aswell, with a new concept which removes the bad parts and focuses on the good parts, Raids could be a great addition again.

The bad part is that they make it an abritrary raid when in relaity there is no need for it, which makes it a not-raid in the end. I mean, there must be a reason on a mechanical level to make something a raid, otherwise it just ends up as the "token" content in order to be able to say that the game has raids to attract those players and very likely disappointing them in the process.

Sure, everything eventually will get to a point where the raid-size isnt needed. Like in WoW where you could solo Molten Core and other places later on, or just do them with a few people. But that was in a game with progression tied to it, so when it was "the" endgame it needed the number of people intended. It wasnt until far after it got obsolete that it also turned into solo or small group S#&$s-and-giggles content. Marvel Heroes made the same mistake as WF, you really didnt need a raid for the raids, heck some heroes could solo Muspel and no mechanic actually needed more than a normal group aslong as the dps was proper. Most of these lacking things come from the fact that there is no trinity present in these arpgs, which means they cant have the punishing mechanics of a standard raid setting. We dont have access to timed blocks (though we could have), we dont have sustained playerskill-based healing options, proper taunting or dedicated dps.

And about not trying again, I'm refering to that they must come up with a completely new idea and not the puzzle-quest "raid" that made up the old ones. They need to go all the way out, possibly as far as GW2 went in order to implement raids more properly. And that was by introducing trinity-lite into the game, by adding new specializations where you could focus on actual tanking, healing and dps so the encounters could be designed for those proper specs. I think the best thing they can do is build further on squad link and use that as their approach to having their own type of "raids". Less worries about host migrations and so on aswell and each piece of content only needs to entertain and engage up to 4 people per "task".

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I mean it was a get together event I guess but the old raids in warframe were really bad. Its usually just max range nyx and Vauban spamming CC with EV trin if you too lazy to make energy pads. then pretty much at that point its mostly just sitting and waiting on pads. JV was mostly a who knows the exploit to skip a hour of stuff  in pug groups otherwise ppl wont do them so I pretty much only ever did JV with friends once and a while.

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