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Why is limbo allowed to exist in his current state?


(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA

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He can say "this objective is completely off limits. I dont care how high level you are. I dont care what level you are. I dont care how many of you there are." With the exception of sentients.

 

He can also turn any mission he wants to into a slog by screwing with your ability to kill enemies, and with enough range can make you have to waste time finding them stuck all over creation.

 

No other frame cheeses the game as hard as limbo and any frame that comes close has been nerfed. So why does he get a pass?

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Sentients aren't the only exception... Either way, he's not the only Warframe that prevents enemies from entering an area indefinitely. Main differences between him and the other(s) is he relies on weapons for damage, and he offers virtually nothing outside of one specific mission type, and even then, mainly in minority premade groups, where as this doesn't apply to the other(s).

Even when Sentients were changed, the nerf didn't even apply to the other(s).

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Because farming is the core of the game, the less you kill and loot, the more missions you need to do, meaning you need to spend more time in warframe and potentially get something from the market, like a booster.

In Scarlet Spear event, my meta was 4 wukongs, due to the speed and killing potential, limbo was however defined as the meta by the community, because it make things easier, at a huge drawback, less loot.

There is a reason why hidroid tentacles and khora's net have augments to make them loot more, because without proper expertise you will gain twice the loot (+-) at half the speed, essentially achieving nothing, they placed the looting abilities on things that fling and ragdoll the enemies, making them hard to hit and slowing down the kill rate. While this is somehow unrelated, it gives you a hint on how DE mentality works.

Effort is rewarded, the more cheese is added, the less you should get, loki and limbo are prime examples of this, DE doesn't want to change loki because for them he is exactly where it should be, if you use him, you can never kill in the same way as other warframes so when you use him, DE knows you will be getting less loot, therefor making you play warframe a litle bit more.

Same with limbo, if he is in a team, that team should get less stuff even if it's by a litle bit, you make a trade, you sacrifice loot to make the mission easier, not knowing this will lead to more mission repetition.

If you hold enemies at bay in a mobile defense mission (like a kuva lich one that has a high probability of making you go solo), you will most likely only kill the kuva thralls, so the end you'll have what, 10 kills

How many mobile defenses will you need to achieve the same loot as someone who killed 300 enemies? that's right, 30 mobile defenses, That's why DE doesn't want you to loot too much and will remain warframes in their state because deep down they know said warframe will make players play warframe for a longer period of time

Sure, you can kill with limbo, but not everyone tries to achieve more in a mission and DE knows it, many players only seek the mission reward at the end, not knowing the plat potential and the ease of grind lies on the mission itself, the more you kill and loot, the more endo, mods, credits, and resources you get.

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Tbh Limbo need a rework in the similar vein as Chroma: he's too autowin at his job but when it comes to anything else that screw up what he's good at (Nullifiers and Statis immune enemies) or mission types that require you to do more than just defending things in a looter game then he's next to useless compare to other defense frames like Khora or Gara (hell, even Wisp 1 make a decent tool on excavator under lvl 100) which provide more than just defending. I'm not saying that his strengths need to be nerfed but rather he should have better plan Bs and side things that actually bring result. He's either +S tier or just useless, there is no in-between.

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Limbo is the unfortunate outcome of "this sounds cool, so we're gonna do it".
By all accounts his theme, design and ideas are very cool to explore and use... When put into practice? Not so much.

I liked when Limbo was a duelist. His primary abilities were literally "Banish myself, banish enemy, give myself a damage boost, then kill the banished enemy".
Clunky, unfinished, but this gameplay pattern was cool... And useful. Limbo could force any enemy to fight him one on one and then beat them because well... Solo enemies are not an issue. Especially with damage boost.

Then they reworked him. Broken damage scaling of his sphere suddenly made him a nuker who could destroy rooms, pre-rework Saryn style.
That's no good, so he got reworked again...
Now he's just a crowd controller. He can't kill, can't provide buffs... All he can do is stay out of trouble and effectively remove "play" from "gameplay".Which is... Why would you want to do that in your game?

IMHO he must get reworked again. Especially the sphere, since its the main offender.
Make his kit more basic. Focus it on more on what can be done in the rift, rather than ability to put enemies into the rift.
Maybe replace the sphere with some kind of nuke that scales the more enemies are currently in the rift? Make Limbo work and put effort to get as many enemies into the rift as possible using "normal" abilities, then use their numbers again them and nuke it all.
Or maybe give him some kind of alternative energy management system, like Baruuk, Ember or Gauss, where he can't just use his ultimate nilly willy.

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Couldn't defend your arguments in the other thread, so you decided to make a new one?

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29 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

In Scarlet Spear event, my meta was 4 wukongs, due to the speed and killing potential, limbo was however defined as the meta by the community, because it make things easier, at a huge drawback, less loot.

No, Limbo was meta because he was what allowed that speed and guaranteed 17 Condrix (more loot). Not 4 monkeys that got beat over the head with the nerf hammer.

Even if you're talking about the Murex, one Wukong is more than enough, as Limbo can teleport instantly to them with Join Warp.

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1 minute ago, KitMeHarder said:

 

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No, Limbo was meta because he was what allowed that speed and guaranteed 17 Condrix (more loot). Not 4 monkeys that got beat over the head with the nerf hammer.

Even if you're talking about the Murex, one Wukong is more than enough, as Limbo can teleport instantly to them with Join Warp.

You don't see it.

When the murex appears, 1 wukong is already waiting and the others are all able to go and help him and with enough firepower you can use the influx of enemies to loot, therefor gaining a mission reward and loot at the same time.

Limbo simply stalls enemies, regardless of how fast you are.

I did plenty of random runs and noticed lack of firepower, lack of prediction (you could predict where the murex lands even before a full rotation, but this prediction was rare and i only saw it once, most times it was just me doing the prediction, so if 100 runs has a player able to predict them, that's 1 player in 300, essentially 0.3% of the players) and lack of killing, most times players simply crowd controled enemies, it worked, at a cost.

DE is more than happy to let limbo stay where he is, because they know players will for the most part do exactly what DE wants, not loot.

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1 minute ago, KIREEK said:

 

I did plenty of random runs and noticed lack of firepower, lack of prediction (you could predict where the murex lands even before a full rotation, but this prediction was rare and i only saw it once, most times it was just me doing the prediction, so if 100 runs has a player able to predict them, that's 1 player in 300, essentially 0.3% of the players) and lack of killing, most times players simply crowd controled enemies, it worked, at a cost.

 

I did plenty of random runs myself.
80% of the time I did 60-90% of the damage and carried the squad with limbo and exodia only. Best time I got was maybe 28 min I think.

And my point is completely different. If they didn't nerf limbo+exodia combo I would have run the next time the event drops and help any starting tenno who needs it(because there were a lot who needed help before).
Now I won't, because it will be just an annoying mission without that interesting combo that was.

Good luck next gen tenno. ^^

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Since he was released, Limbo's always been in an awkward spot, because his core gimmick has always hinged entirely on cutting off interaction between players and the enemy. Before the rework he got, he was seen mostly as a nuisance to his teammates, because his biggest impact was preventing players from harming some enemies, accidentally or otherwise. Now, with Stasis, he's good at defensive missions... but only because he makes it essentially impossible for enemies to harm the objective at all. The developers behind his rework were so concerned with making him useful that they forgot to ask themselves if his kit was truly healthy, which is why we have the current monstrosity. In general, DE isn't very good at making warframe abilities interactive, which is why there are gameplay issues with many more frames besides Limbo.

Ultimately, I think Limbo will need another rework, but I also think Limbo's probably one of the most difficult frames to rework in the game, because it's his core mechanic that is the problem. Fencing off players and enemies is inevitably going to frustrate players trying to kill stuff, while also trivializing gameplay when the enemies don't get to do anything. There isn't really a middle ground to balancing this, because the Rift mechanic is itself entirely binary, where either you have interaction or you don't. If a Limbo rework is to succeed, it's going to have to change how his Rift works on some fundamental level... yet still somehow stay true to his identity. It may perhaps be possible, but I personally have no real idea how one could pull it off.

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1 minute ago, vegetosayajin said:


80% of the time I did 60-90% of the damage and carried the squad with limbo and exodia only

Not all players are equal, DE doesn't care if 1 player uses things as efficiently as possible, they care more about the masses, if everyone was like you, way more nerfs would happen.

You did alot, but that's because you worked to get there, most simply used the 4th ability and waited. Especially the ones that Aquired limbo recently and saw a window of opportunity with squads requesting said warframe player.

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12 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

with enough firepower you can use the influx of enemies to loot

What loot do I care about from sentients? And I would not call post Old Blood Wukong "fire power". If you want to kill, a Limbo to protect everything/everyone while Mesa kills, nova speeds up, Rhino buffs, etc... is a way better and more balanced team.

12 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

but this prediction was rare and i only saw it once

Basically every ground mission I did had this, and I just got randoms from recruiting chat. Pubs aren't an excuss, because you said you had premade 4 Wukong squads.

12 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

so if 100 runs has a player able to predict them, that's 1 player in 300, essentially 0.3% of the players

You're really low balling the Warframe player base. Even so, a Limbo with Exodia Contagion can kill the Condrix almost as fast as a DPS Volt. And Mesa should be there soon to clean up the Sentients you started killing. (Because you pinged where it would spawn 10 seconds before it actually did. Most players just followed me after I put up my bubble, easy-peasy.

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9 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

 

Basically every ground mission I did had this, and I just got randoms from recruiting chat. Pubs aren't an excuss, because you said you had premade 4 Wukong squads.

I think you're confusing the prediction before you know the locations with the prediction AFTER you know where the murex will appear

To make it simple, i'm talking about the location of murex 2,3 and 4 before they even apear on the map, You see the 1st one and then you could already pin where the other ones would appear and therefor wait for the murex.

Saw one player doing the same as me during the entire event, are you sure you saw that constantly?

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

 

You're really low balling the Warframe player base. Even so, a Limbo with Exodia Contagion can kill the Condrix almost as fast as a DPS Volt. And Mesa should be there soon to clean everything up the Sentients you started killing.

Endo, mods can be traded for plat, and resources, some of which you can use right now on the helmith system

The more mods, the more plat you essentially win per run, killing the murex gets you the mission reward and that's it.

 

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

No other frame cheeses the game as hard as limbo and any frame that comes close has been nerfed. So why does he get a pass?

That isnt nearly true. Limbo can only cheese one mission type and that mission type is worthless to play, which would be mobile defense. Unless you count Scarlet Spear which comes around once per year (maybe).

In everything else both Vauban and Khora brings tastier cheese since they can kill effectively aswell by just standing there. Limbo just stops things, so relies on running around or requiring others to do the killing since all modes except mobdef requires killing.

Though it is a fair question to ask why Limbo exsists in his current crap state.

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27 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Saw one player doing the same as me during the entire event, are you sure you saw that constantly?

Then once they had fixed the rewards so that 17 Condrix was optimal, yeah. Because usually I was the one doing it, telling everyone to follow. There were other people, but once one person spoke up the rest just followed.

Even then, only 2 and 3 were the "hard" ones, and 2 out of 17 doesn't justify Wukongs if a squad was bad at predictions.

27 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

The more mods, the more plat you essentially win per run

Insignificant to the arcane farm. Best you could get is Vengeful Revenant, which is 17p atm (if you find a buyer). And Spring-Loaded Broadhead is 12p.

And I have so much endo I could probably max rank every primed mod in the game again. Even for someone that does need endo, it's meaningless compared to a Vodaynoi/Arbitration farm, or even a regular mission where enemies aren't status immune with 90% DR.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

No other frame cheeses the game as hard as limbo and any frame that comes close has been nerfed. So why does he get a pass?

He isn't the only one. Octavia and Saryn, for some reason, even after DE Pablo did said on stream that Saryn is too powerful, and the countless videos out there of Octavia cheesing through any game mode there is, have yet to be nerfed.

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1 hour ago, Artekkor said:

Limbo is the unfortunate outcome of "this sounds cool, so we're gonna do it".
By all accounts his theme, design and ideas are very cool to explore and use... When put into practice? Not so much.

I liked when Limbo was a duelist. His primary abilities were literally "Banish myself, banish enemy, give myself a damage boost, then kill the banished enemy".
Clunky, unfinished, but this gameplay pattern was cool... And useful. Limbo could force any enemy to fight him one on one and then beat them because well... Solo enemies are not an issue. Especially with damage boost.

Then they reworked him. Broken damage scaling of his sphere suddenly made him a nuker who could destroy rooms, pre-rework Saryn style.
That's no good, so he got reworked again...
Now he's just a crowd controller. He can't kill, can't provide buffs... All he can do is stay out of trouble and effectively remove "play" from "gameplay".Which is... Why would you want to do that in your game?

IMHO he must get reworked again. Especially the sphere, since its the main offender.
Make his kit more basic. Focus it on more on what can be done in the rift, rather than ability to put enemies into the rift.
Maybe replace the sphere with some kind of nuke that scales the more enemies are currently in the rift? Make Limbo work and put effort to get as many enemies into the rift as possible using "normal" abilities, then use their numbers again them and nuke it all.
Or maybe give him some kind of alternative energy management system, like Baruuk, Ember or Gauss, where he can't just use his ultimate nilly willy.

It's not unfortunate at all. 

What's unfortunate is people just arbitrarily deciding "This game is doing stuff I don't like, it should change." 

They know it would be easier for them to make their own groups or simply mind their own business, but what they actually wanna do is control others and their entire environment. 

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He can basically do the one thing you said very well and that is kinda it and only for one target.  Other frames can be just as cheese by killing everything in the room before it gets to the defense targets, and those frames can also do that killing in all mission types so can already be more useful in them than limbo.  

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