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Elemental Combos (well wondering if we can opt out of them)


MrHBN

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Warframe has a few elemental damage types. As I am sure most if not all of you know that if you equip 2 different elemental damage types you will get 1 of 6 different damage types.

Example: Heat & Toxin = Gas

What if... we had the option... to not get Gas? What if... we could have both heat & Toxin on the same weapon? What if... we could decide if the elementals combined? What If... a single weapon could have Cold, Toxin, Heat and Electric all on the same weapon?

I am sure many of you think "no way, that would be too powerful". However I disagree.

Back when mods like Condition Overload had no limit on how many stacks of extra damage you can have, I would have agreed, that maybe it is pretty OP for something like this. 

Units can be affected by both heat and cold procs at the same time so coding wouldn't be an issue.

Corrosive + heat. Magnetic + Toxin. Viral + slash. Would all still be the most powerful elemental combos. You would have to build weapons like this for content like the Steel Path.

If they buff the other elemental combo damage types (Radiation, Gas and Blast) and made them powerful like Corrosive, Viral and magnetic then you would want to use elemental combos all the time for that sweet, sweet, oh so sweet DPS.

So why not let us have the option to not have elemental combos?

I cannot think of any reason why we couldn't.

by not using combos, we lose out on damage, do to most units being weak to certain elemental combos.

 

Can anyone give me a valid, worthwhile and good example of how being able to use Heat, Toxin, Cold and Electric damage on a single weapon would be be OP. A example of why it can't be done or just any reason why you or DE would be against this.

Edit: I don't mean being able to have Viral + Toxin or Corrosive + Toxin or Magnetic + Electric etc, what I mean for is the option to either have them combine or have none of them combine. So using the 90% mods to make Viral then adding the Toxin dual stat 60/60 mod wouldn't make Viral and Toxin. It would either make just Viral or Cold and Toxin.   

 

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Just now, Xardis said:

Khem, what? Powerful and Corrosive in the same sentence? Am I blind and just dreaming that I saw those two words?

I mean 80% armour strip, alot of armoured units and infested units are weak to it. But yes Viral and slash is king/Queen, I know. Corrosive would still grant more DPS than Electric and Toxin. 

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7 hours ago, Xardis said:

Khem, what? Powerful and Corrosive in the same sentence? Am I blind and just dreaming that I saw those two words?

The only use it has is pure damage on Deimos, only coz DE decided to just turn of Viral proc on enemies there.

Corrosive as an armor strip on a status hose allows you to kill hard targets on the steel path much, MUCH easier.  An Amprex built for status, range, fire rate and other utility with NO straight damage mods will strip whole groups down to 20% armor and soften them up for you.  And on weapons that don't apply status reliably like a lot of crit weapons, my testing has shown that the "appropriate" element type for that enemy will grant a faster TTK than viral simply because viral won't proc fast enough to outpace the damage bonus from the right element.  Corrosive is fine.

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8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Corrosive as an armor strip on a status hose allows you to kill hard targets on the steel path much, MUCH easier.  An Amprex built for status, range, fire rate and other utility with NO straight damage mods will strip whole groups down to 20% armor and soften them up for you.  And on weapons that don't apply status reliably like a lot of crit weapons, my testing has shown that the "appropriate" element type for that enemy will grant a faster TTK than viral simply because viral won't proc fast enough to outpace the damage bonus from the right element.  Corrosive is fine.

The point of contention is the Corrosive is powerful, and its not. It at least has a general use, Magnetic is even worse, and its also in that same sentence, Magnetic has terrible damage bonuses and the only useful thing about it its status in a very specific scenarios, like Shield Augment Sortie. As much as I would like for those 3, and the other 3 to be about the same in power (I made my own posts about status) its not real. Viral is overall the best, if you cannot proc status, you go for Corrosive or Radiation, all else are just there if you can sqeeze them in.

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1 hour ago, Xardis said:

The point of contention is the Corrosive is powerful, and its not

you have yet to back that up with anything other than your opinion.  I've already stated why it's still powerful.  It does armor strip, which is incredibly necessary to have late game, and it has damage bonuses against many of the harder to kill enemy types.  Even against alloy armor where doesn't have the damage bonus, it's still strong because it's removing that armor.  You're saying it's not powerful, but relative to what?  Viral?  It's only slightly weaker than viral against high level armored enemies and nothing outside of toxin is the "best" against shielded, unarmored enemies.  And viral is NOT BIS if the weapon you put it on has low status and can't reliably proc it.  A high crit, low status weapon will kill an enemy using corrosive faster than with viral.

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Il y a 22 heures, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

It does armor strip, which is incredibly necessary to have late game, and it has damage bonuses against many of the harder to kill enemy types

That's true, corrosive is the best element. But it's lacking a lot compared to the best elemental combo. Which is viral + slash.

What's the point of progressively stripping an enemy's armor then damage him, when you can simply ignore his armor while increasing your damages against him ?

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I believe DE implemented secondary elements, because way back when, you could have "rainbow" builds with the 4 primary elements. Don't know why they changed that, though. Sure, you had 4 elements on your weapon, but the status probability was, in turn, very diluted.

Opting in and out of secondary elements would be nice, I agree. 

But I don't think it's likely to happen. I will say, however, that secondary elements need to be overall stronger/better than primary elements, as an incentive and reason to even mod for said secondary elements. 

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On 2020-11-15 at 8:08 AM, kenpled said:

That's true, corrosive is the best element. But it's lacking a lot compared to the best elemental combo. Which is viral + slash.

What's the point of progressively stripping an enemy's armor then damage him, when you can simply ignore his armor while increasing your damages against him ?

For the absolute hardest targets, like Steel Path Demos, I keep an Amprex built for pure Corrosive without pure damage mods, just all status, range, fire rate, reload/holster speed.  I Also have a Kuva Nukor built the same way but the only elements on it are Radiation and Viral.  I can put 10 Corrosive and Viral procs, as well as multiple Radiation procs on not only the target but everything around the target in about 2 seconds.  It makes them super soft and provides a fairly significant amount of soft CC and survivability because everything is now shooting at something besides me.  Melee or frame abilities do the rest, and they do it much more efficiently than they would otherwise.  

And again, if the weapon that you're putting Viral on cannot reliably proc Viral, then utilizing whatever element provides the best damage bonus will provide a faster TTK.  

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On 2020-11-14 at 12:44 PM, Xardis said:

The point of contention is the Corrosive is powerful, and its not. It at least has a general use, Magnetic is even worse, and its also in that same sentence, Magnetic has terrible damage bonuses and the only useful thing about it its status in a very specific scenarios, like Shield Augment Sortie. As much as I would like for those 3, and the other 3 to be about the same in power (I made my own posts about status) its not real. Viral is overall the best, if you cannot proc status, you go for Corrosive or Radiation, all else are just there if you can sqeeze them in.

Wazzup my guy. The reason why I had Corrosive + Heat, Magnetic + Toxin and Viral + Slash as examples of the most powerful setups is because Corrosive + Heat is for Grineer. Viral and slash is for infested. Then Magnetic and Toxin is for Corpus.

Basically they were meant to represent the builds that you would use for armour, health and shields respectively.

I was not trying to say corrosive is the best or magnetic is OP or anything. I genuinely have no idea why you are banging on about which damage type and builds are most meta. The whole point of my post was to bring up that being able to use heat, toxin, cold and electricity on a single build would not be OP or become the new Viral-Slash or be more powerful than corrosive-heat and magnetic-toxin (for Corpus). Against Corpus Viral and slash is nowhere near as good as magnetic and toxin. If you have a weapon that can use both Viral and Toxin then that would be great for Corpus. Sadly most weapons can't do that which I think is fine. A example of a weapon like that would be the melee weapon you get from the season 2 nightwave boss.

Listen I'm not trying to dictate what builds people use. I am not trying to discuss what is the "Meta". All I was pointing out is that all the normal base elements can't hold a candle to the other combo elements and therefore we should be able to use all 4 of them instead of being forced to have them combine into radiation. viral etc.

Besides in a recent devstream DE has said they are gonna go over status and other things in the near future, they hinted at Viral being nerfed too. So if they buff all the combo elementals and give Viral a slight nerf and keep the normal 4 elementals relatively the same, then it would be great if we could decide whether the elementals combine or not.

 

Please read over the title of the post. I don't care that you only use Viral and Slash or that you only bring Corrosive weapons to Deimos. As long as a build works and can kill things who cares whether you can lower the time to kill by 0.4 seconds. If it can kill. Get the job done. Work great against the units you are fighting. Then the build is good. Regardless of what elemental combo you have used.    

    

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7 hours ago, MrHBN said:

Wazzup my guy. The reason why I had Corrosive + Heat, Magnetic + Toxin and Viral + Slash as examples of the most powerful setups is because Corrosive + Heat is for Grineer. Viral and slash is for infested. Then Magnetic and Toxin is for Corpus.

Basically they were meant to represent the builds that you would use for armour, health and shields respectively.

I was not trying to say corrosive is the best or magnetic is OP or anything. I genuinely have no idea why you are banging on about which damage type and builds are most meta. The whole point of my post was to bring up that being able to use heat, toxin, cold and electricity on a single build would not be OP or become the new Viral-Slash or be more powerful than corrosive-heat and magnetic-toxin (for Corpus). Against Corpus Viral and slash is nowhere near as good as magnetic and toxin. If you have a weapon that can use both Viral and Toxin then that would be great for Corpus. Sadly most weapons can't do that which I think is fine. A example of a weapon like that would be the melee weapon you get from the season 2 nightwave boss.

Listen I'm not trying to dictate what builds people use. I am not trying to discuss what is the "Meta". All I was pointing out is that all the normal base elements can't hold a candle to the other combo elements and therefore we should be able to use all 4 of them instead of being forced to have them combine into radiation. viral etc.

Besides in a recent devstream DE has said they are gonna go over status and other things in the near future, they hinted at Viral being nerfed too. So if they buff all the combo elementals and give Viral a slight nerf and keep the normal 4 elementals relatively the same, then it would be great if we could decide whether the elementals combine or not.

Please read over the title of the post. I don't care that you only use Viral and Slash or that you only bring Corrosive weapons to Deimos. As long as a build works and can kill things who cares whether you can lower the time to kill by 0.4 seconds. If it can kill. Get the job done. Work great against the units you are fighting. Then the build is good. Regardless of what elemental combo you have used.    

I think you might have missinterpreted my comment a little. But my own position was entirely lacking here.

Yes, I think that currently Viral is the most powerful element, but no, I dont like it. I dont like the fact that the only usable combined elementals are Corrosive, Viral and maybe Radiation. I would want to have all base elements to be more useful, not only Heat, and the same for IPS and combined ones. DE as you noticed, is planning another "balance" change for status - that will change nothing, small change to Viral will most likely not make it bad, big change will in return give us one more useless element we never mod for.

As for making elements not combine - I dont think that is the way forward, base elements have weak damage bonuses and also have mostly weak status procs. For the most I suppose that it would be one more proc possible to get on a target to use CO on. That change would not fix the problem that I have, large power gaps between different damage types. 

My own shot at this problem was something like this: reduce elemental procs to base 4 and procs from combined elementals are just enhanced versions of source ones. You can proc only base procs by weapon, if you want to get a combined proc, you have to use 2 different weapons on a target to get that proc - you want Viral on target? You have to proc the enemy with Cold and Toxic individualy. You still can get combined damage types on weapons, but they cannot proc any status, they have better pure damage bonuses.

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14 hours ago, Xardis said:

 

My own shot at this problem was something like this: reduce elemental procs to base 4 and procs from combined elementals are just enhanced versions of source ones. You can proc only base procs by weapon, if you want to get a combined proc, you have to use 2 different weapons on a target to get that proc - you want Viral on target? You have to proc the enemy with Cold and Toxic individualy. You still can get combined damage types on weapons, but they cannot proc any status, they have better pure damage bonuses.

That is actually an awesome idea. If a Frost cast his 2 and hit a bunch of guys with colds procs then an Ember could cast her 4 and make those targets blow up with blast procs (maybe make it work like Gauss's Thermal Sunder and strip armour). Of course blast, magnetic etc need some buffing and changes but the idea of 2 players combining abilities to make different status procs and upping their overall damage. 

I know you said to use 2 different weapons (I assume solo) but this idea can very easily be expanded to your teammates weapons and Warframe abilities. Then it could be expanded further to make Warframe abilities interact more with each other with unique effects. Like if a Volt uses his 4, then a Saryn uses her 4, it could result in enemies receiving both viral (from Saryn), corrosive damage (from being combined with electric shocks via Volt) and magnetic (also from Volt's electric procs) making that combo great against any type of unit in the game. So if a unit affected by viral gets hit with a electric proc it turns into a corrosive-viral-magnetic hybrid. This could be done with weapons on a single target or with Warframes, like the example I made with Volt & Saryn, could affect crowds of units. In Warframe it used to be weapons for single target and abilities for groups. All this could bring back that and add way more incentive to work as a team (it is a MMO-Lite afterall).

Another example could be someone using Protea's 2 while another guy hits targets with a toxin based melee creating gas clouds all over. Or another could be a guy using something like the Nukor (or any other AOE weapon) to hit units with radiation procs while another guy using a weapon with electric damage could amp the radiation effect or even create a whole new one.

The possibilities are almost endless and would make teamplay way more important. These days people basically play solo in public matches so this could fix that. Obviously status in general still needs work so something like this, though cool, would really best be implemented after all status effects are in a good place.      

Honestly that is awesome and has a lot of potential.        

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