Jump to content

(SPOILERS) Latest lore is killing the game for me...


Purple_Oni

Recommended Posts

So I still fundamentally love Warframe at its core but there are two big things stopping me from enjoying the game right now from the two most recent updates. What always kept me going in Warframe was this sense that I was making the Origin System a better place, it may sound like silly motivation but helping the people of Cetus and Fortuna got me through those grinds without complaint. The effort felt worth it from a story standpoint. I want to explain how the Deadlock Protocal and Heart of Deimos are mucking that up for me.

 

The first is the Deadlock Protocol. I loved the quest itself, stopping Nef Anyo from seizing absolute power over the Corpus is a good reason to get involved. I was 100% down for the quest, however running the Corpus ship tilesets feels incredibly bad otherwise due to the high number of people I have to leave behind, trapped as they beg for life and watch their last hope of being saved from their terrible fate bullet jumps away. It feels doubly bad on Sabotage mission where I am the one who caused their imminent demise.

 

Heart of Deimos is even worse. I cannot stomach helping the Orokin. No matter how quirky or funny they are, these are still Orokin. These are the people responsible for the fact that the current state of the Origin System is better off than before The Old War. I can't get behind helping out members of the former ruling class who would keep children in abject poverty and ignorance, abduct them, psychically torture them into utter despair, all so they could selfishly prolong their own life. I especially don't want to get involved in their stupid family drama that could easily be solved by them just talking to each other.

 

Sure not every NPC we've helped has been entirely moral or deserving of our help , but in the worst cases it still always felt like the lesser of two evils scenario. I don't want to have to face the trolley dillema every time I play on a certain tileset and I don't want to help the remnants of the Orokin, not even the Helminth system makes it palatable.

 

Wasn't sure where else to put this, but it's feedback because these things are really preventing me from getting absorbed into the game again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO, saying you can't side with any orokin at all because of the actions of the higher ups is kinda racist... that'd be like saying you can't help someone from a country because that country once went to war/did something horrible. There's a difference between the corrupt Orokin elite, and orokin scientists who were not all bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Purple_Oni said:

What always kept me going in Warframe was this sense that I was making the Origin System a better place, it may sound like silly motivation but helping the people of Cetus and Fortuna got me through those grinds without complaint.

yours is perhaps the best motivation and there should be way more gamers thinking like that, seriously

 

10 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

IMO, saying you can't side with any orokin at all because of the actions of the higher ups is kinda racist... that'd be like saying you can't help someone from a country because that country once went to war/did something horrible. There's a difference between the corrupt Orokin elite, and orokin scientists who were not all bad.

this sounds way, way too close to a "not all men" defense. Up until now, all Orokin we faced were downright bastards and the only one that maybe could've been a nice person... well, we've played through The Sacrifice.

As OP mentioned, though quirky and funny, the Entrati are big time #*!%ed up:

father and mother are an abusive, toxic af couple, son is a sadistic little S#&$ and daughter, well, she's perhaps the only one that could be excused due to growing up in such horrible family and grandmother is a gossipmonger/voyeur, so pretty much an enabler.

From the point of view of the Tenno, they have yet to meet a truly nice Orokin. Try telling Biz or Zuud that not all Corpus are bad, there's this guy Latrox Une who's actually ok...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Ins. said:

Teshin is alright, though he isn't true orokin.

Teshin is not an Orokin at all. He is a Dax, a product of Orokin genetic engineering, who is faithful to us because he is genetically forced to.

So thanks but no. "They have yet to meet a truly nice Orokin", and Teshin is irrelevant to the discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Purple_Oni said:

running the Corpus ship tilesets feels incredibly bad otherwise due to the high number of people I have to leave behind, trapped as they beg for life

I must say this bothers me a lot as well. It is a design choice I really dislike and I agree with you in disliking the Corpus ship tileset as a result.

(Then again, we do fly through those tilesets while murdering thousands of people, and we feel bad for one. It's a bit of a cognitive dissonance, I admit it).

 

As for the Orokin on Deimos... I don't know. It is kind of a relief to know that not 100% of the Orokin were evil cartoon characters, all hell-bent on destruction, cackling while they oppress the masses. The family on Deimos is disfunctional as hell, but they're, as far as I'm concerned, alright.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm always confused by people who want to play the good guy. Especially in a game about mass slaughter and with antiheroes involved such as Warframe.

 

The Tenno are not in any way good people. They are amoral at best. There are a lot of situations where they do horrific things, even just using basic missions as an example. If it were a matter of "well those are the 'bad guys'" a "good guy" would still not slaughter everyone they could find in a Grineer galleon without any other purpose than killing a certain amount of Grineer. How does that get defined as...

2 hours ago, Purple_Oni said:

making the Origin System a better place

Our characters are not the good guys. It could be argued that within the Warframe universe, there are no good guys.

 

When I would breed new beast pets, I couldn't handle consigning them, because I thought of it as almost rejecting innocent animals to whatever horrible fate was attached to that. I bought so many stasis slots while still trying to turn a profit on said pets. Now, if the appearance doesn't please me, they get imprinted and then promptly tossed out the airlock.

 

I advise doing the same, or the equivalent. Otherwise I suggest Undertale, because you can actually play a pacifist in it. There's other good games for that, another that comes to mind are things like Animal Crossing and Stardew Valley. I'm not insulting those titles either, I haven't gotten to personally play Undertale but it reminds me a lot of Mother, (otherwise known as Earthbound.) I've played the others and they are chill and fun to play.

 

If I am going to go on fictional killing sprees, (and those are generally the types of killing sprees I go on thankfully!) I'm going to do it as either a bad guy or an antihero of some sort, who could be categorized as bad, but ends up doing small amounts of good along the way.

 

I spend all day every day trying to be a good person, when I sit down at the computer, sometimes I just want to try the other side on. Embrace it, claim it, make it your own! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole story of Warframe is this: You start doing one thing beliving your in the right, but things turn out to be more complicated that it firt appeared.

This is true for everything weve done. With the Orokin, we are taught theyre all these bad guys, but we later learn that its mostly just those at the top who were so corrupt. The middle men and those at the lower levels of society werent so bad. With Daemos, we see a glimps of orokin who werent corrupt.

It feels to me that your winding yourself up over missconceptions. Look at these from another angle and it makes the story way more interesting. And doesnt the knowledge that there are some good, even likeable orokin, make the acts by the rest seem even worse? As for the prisoners, sometimes youve got to just sit back and say 'yea, ok, this is just a game system, and not so lore previlent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Yuukale said:

well, we've played through The Sacrifice

You want to, and should remember, why Ballas turned on the Orokin and became the man we know now. They killed Margulis. Her Margulis. In Warframe, there are no moral high grounds, we all are bad guys, there is no helping it. I might be a tad bit biased, but i am always down to learn more and broaden my views.

Also seeing him going through with that sentient pet BS is infuriating. He even helped us with his blade, we all make mistakes... Poor lad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Miser_able said:

IMO, saying you can't side with any orokin at all because of the actions of the higher ups is kinda racist... that'd be like saying you can't help someone from a country because that country once went to war/did something horrible. There's a difference between the corrupt Orokin elite, and orokin scientists who were not all bad.

Friendly reminder that Grandma put the entire origin system at risk of destruction for the sake of helping out her family. Though she's likely first-generation Orokin. Not to mention their general behaviour towards each other.

 

@Purple_Oni Remember that Heart of Deimos was originally slated to come out after the New War, so the circumstances we were supposed to swallow our pride and help Orokin in were originally much different. Either way, spoilers from here on out for the last level of the syndicate, but:

Spoiler

They have no reason to work with us, to trust us, and just as much to hate us. Personally so. As Kermerros puts it:

"I was to be married, you know? She would now be as dead as the empire that raised us. Sometimes I wish I had been there, with her, when your kind came for us."

And yet:

"No hard feelings. Our time had more than come."

Despite having as much of a personal stake in that, he forgives us for what to his perspective is our misdeed.

 

It's a convenient belief that those we hate are beyond redemption. I'm not immune to it myself. But we can't forget the Tenno's own actions are not exactly pure. What the Tenno did was ultimately an act of Genocide, which flung the system into Anarchy, costing billions, maybe even trillions of lives, and triggering almost every problem we fight to correct. For our characters to have even the faintest shred of morality in this situation, they must accept the possibility that people are capable of change.

If one group of genocidal monsters has that capacity, then the same must ultimately apply to the Orokin.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Purple_Oni said:

Hard disaree, and I believe the people of Fortuna would stand with me on that

Eudico said in one quest (can't remember which one, sorry), that the people of Fortuna takes pride in their enslavement. She may be, but i would wager some will be way happier with their

Spoiler

heads on their shoulders. And no debt at all. While Nef fails to learn breathing in the vacuum of space.

They may have no choice at the moment, but in the long term, if the Tenno were the good guys, we could free them. As far as i can see, we are not really planning on doing that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Purple_Oni said:

I cannot stomach helping the Orokin.

Not simple Orokin. They are infested.  And they barely control that stuff... unlike Helminth, their infestation is wild.

There are new strains too.....Anyway, I would blow that sht right up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

@Purple_Oni Remember that Heart of Deimos was originally slated to come out after the New War, so the circumstances we were supposed to swallow our pride and help Orokin in were originally much different. Either way, spoilers from here on out for the last level of the syndicate, but:

  Reveal hidden contents

They have no reason to work with us, to trust us, and just as much to hate us. Personally so. As Kermerros puts it:

"I was to be married, you know? She would now be as dead as the empire that raised us. Sometimes I wish I had been there, with her, when your kind came for us."

And yet:

"No hard feelings. Our time had more than come."

Despite having as much of a personal stake in that, he forgives us for what to his perspective is our misdeed.

 

It's a convenient belief that those we hate are beyond redemption. I'm not immune to it myself. But we can't forget the Tenno's own actions are not exactly pure. What the Tenno did was ultimately an act of Genocide, which flung the system into Anarchy, costing billions, maybe even trillions of lives, and triggering almost every problem we fight to correct. For our characters to have even the faintest shred of morality in this situation, they must accept the possibility that people are capable of change.

If one group of genocidal monsters has that capacity, then the same must ultimately apply to the Orokin.

 

Hey, this was an excellently made point, that the Entraati shouldn't be seen as beyond redemption and if they make an effort to change for the better we should give them that chance. My struggle is I don't see them making that effort, all I see is them patching up the disagreements between themselves. I do hope that's where it ends up going though because I can't stand these characters as of now.

26 minutes ago, Laveillon said:

Eudico said in one quest (can't remember which one, sorry), that the people of Fortuna takes pride in their enslavement. She may be, but i would wager some will be way happier with their

  Reveal hidden contents

heads on their shoulders. And no debt at all. While Nef fails to learn breathing in the vacuum of space.

They may have no choice at the moment, but in the long term, if the Tenno were the good guys, we could free them. As far as i can see, we are not really planning on doing that.

It takes time to dismantle an interplanatary empire that has dug its fingers into every facet of society, I certainly have dedicated a lot of effort towards helping free them but there's only so much we can do for lore and gameplay reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Purple_Oni said:

Hey, this was an excellently made point, that the Entraati shouldn't be seen as beyond redemption and if they make an effort to change for the better we should give them that chance. My struggle is I don't see them making that effort, all I see is them patching up the disagreements between themselves. I do hope that's where it ends up going though because I can't stand these characters as of now.

In fairness, their disagreements are already pretty significant steps to make. Their dynamic was borderline (or frankly beyond borderline in some cases) abusive. Granted their reactions to it are strange, albeit in character. Father was victimised by his wife and his daughter, Son was neglected and depressed, and took it out on the rest, Mother is - well, Mother, Grandma put the system at risk, and Daughter? Well, let's just say she seems to have a 'Romantic Abnormality', one so unbelievable that it must be hidden from the public at all costs.

 

I imagine things will get more interesting should Ballas rear his ugly head again. He and the Entrati most likely worked closely together, so I imagine their respective betrayals will cause some interesting character development.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Purple_Oni said:

I cannot stomach helping the Orokin.

Don't we constantly help the Corpus and Grineer through Invasions? In which we even get benefits (as well as downsides) from assisting them? Like considering all the stuff they have done, we still help them and others who have been directly affected by their actions, such as the Ostron and Solaris. Sure, the Orokin Elites were worse in a lot of ways compared to our current enemies, but I don't see them as equal as the Entrati, who seem to want to do good and fix the current situation there are in. At least every faction (besides the Sentient since we don't know their opinion) would agree on one thing: The Infested are the worst thing to exist in the Origin System and need to be eradicated and reduced at all cost. If that's even possible considering how crazy Deimos has become.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just because the Orokin empire did some bad things that means every Orokin citizen is unworthy of sympathy and should suffer for the crimes of their government?

5 hours ago, Purple_Oni said:

Hard disaree, and I believe the people of Fortuna would stand with me on that

The Tenno aren't good guys, we're literally bloodthirsty mercenaries. One mission we're killing a Corpus leader, the next we're helping them fight the Grineer. Then we help the Grineer kill the Corpus. We have no loyalties and kill for whomever pays the most. The only reason we fight back against bigger threats like the Infested and the Sentients is because they're a threat to us, the Tenno.  Just look at the Deimos bounty with the Corpus researcher Latrox Une or however its spelled, we show up to help and he's unsure if were there to kill him or assist. Konzu is constantly calling us "killer" and says "You pay me in red, I pay you in silver". We're literally paid hitmen that go around murdering whomever we're paid to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Friendly reminder that Grandma put the entire origin system at risk of destruction for the sake of helping out her family. Though she's likely first-generation Orokin. Not to mention their general behaviour towards each other.

true, but if the family collapsed then the heart would have died anyway. She needed the family to stay together, and we do too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to address the most common response I see so far. I want to preface this by saying I'm not trying to downplay real world atrocities nor suggest that anybody in this thread is doing so.

 

"The Tenno are also bad since we kill the Grineer and Corpus."

Couple things, first of which is we're talking about two fascist empires with systemic power so strong that a peaceful resolution is non existent. If any Grineer or Corpus in game were to throw down their arms and flee the battlefield I would gladly just let them run. We have an army of cyborg Nazi clones which is likely trillions strong and a theocratic death cult that forcibly harvests the organs of a slave caste while they produce massive robot armies in factories across many planets all so they can sell weapons to the cyborg Nazi clones. Killing the Grineer and Corpus doesn't make us morally equivalent to them. Sure we side with them sometimes, but always in order to weaken the other.

 

I also didn't have a problem working with the Entraati to save the Heart of the Void, that was important and something worth working with them on. However I don't care to help them afterwards because they seem like A******s, A******s who are directly connected to what is basically the murder of who knows how many children through the ages. I kinda need more to go off then "Hey, I am not mad at you for dismantling the corrupt government that kidnapped children and tortured them to death."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Miser_able said:

IMO, saying you can't side with any orokin at all because of the actions of the higher ups is kinda racist... that'd be like saying you can't help someone from a country because that country once went to war/did something horrible. There's a difference between the corrupt Orokin elite, and orokin scientists who were not all bad.

Speciesist at worst and not really. Only grandma and daughter arent in part responsible for the bullS#&$ that happened to orokin as a whole by the tenno. 99% of all tenno are probably walking warcrimes whose mere presence defies the geneva suggestions so a bit of returned speciesism isnt bad especially since factions in game do so against us and then act the victim. If anything i dont mind us helping them much because in the end their fate (should be) worse than death, slowly losing themselves along with the burden of their empire to the sleeping giants they poked one too many time or at best dying in a few years if we go all out on helping them like with

2 hours ago, Miser_able said:

true, but if the family collapsed then the heart would have died anyway. She needed the family to stay together, and we do too.

We dont, the heart doesnt do anything beyond keep their light on the infested nut-pimple going on deimos. In fact having a giant nullifier projection tool destroyed is probably good for us since it means less tech for corpus to jack from (since void and sentient tech is how they make nullies and lazor burst turrets and salad amalgams ontop of that).

46 minutes ago, Purple_Oni said:

"The Tenno are also bad since we kill the Grineer and Corpus."

Couple things, first of which is we're talking about two fascist empires with systemic power so strong that a peaceful resolution is non existent. If any Grineer or Corpus in game were to throw down their arms and flee the battlefield I would gladly just let them run. We have an army of cyborg Nazi clones which is likely trillions strong and a theocratic death cult that forcibly harvests the organs of a slave caste while they produce massive robot armies in factories across many planets all so they can sell weapons to the cyborg Nazi clones. Killing the Grineer and Corpus doesn't make us morally equivalent to them. Sure we side with them sometimes, but always in order to weaken the other.

Technically, the nazi faction are among the few remaining non-clone non-corpus "humans" we can actually ally with (New Loka), grineer being closer to a almost federal dictatorial matriarchy with notes of USSR and proto semitic military traits (along with a dose of chinese bootleg 40k imperium).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Purple_Oni said:

"The Tenno are also bad since we kill the Grineer and Corpus."

Couple things, first of which is we're talking about two fascist empires with systemic power so strong that a peaceful resolution is non existent. If any Grineer or Corpus in game were to throw down their arms and flee the battlefield I would gladly just let them run. We have an army of cyborg Nazi clones which is likely trillions strong and a theocratic death cult that forcibly harvests the organs of a slave caste while they produce massive robot armies in factories across many planets all so they can sell weapons to the cyborg Nazi clones. Killing the Grineer and Corpus doesn't make us morally equivalent to them. Sure we side with them sometimes, but always in order to weaken the other.

There's a world of difference between not being bad (which we're not) and being good.

I don't know a lot of good guys who'll willingly leverage make pre-emptive strikes, use of unethical weaponry - sometimes multiple on the same gun (a popular build before the status changes was Gas + Napalm grenades on the Secura Penta, which releases a nuclear blast occasionally) and willingly engage with torture for interrogation purposes.  You could argue that the ends justify the means, and perhaps they do, but that is not an indication of virtue.

 

After all, whilst we don't attack civilian populations we don't not attack civilians in the first place. Solaris aren't limited to Nef Anyo's employ, or to Fortuna. There were almost certainly one or two in station's where you detonated the core, for example. Prisoners, dependents, or the plain unlucky. Treasurers aren't military either, for that matter...

There's a reason Eudico's reaction on seeing us is 'don't kill us, please', is all I'm saying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

We dont, the heart doesnt do anything beyond keep their light on the infested nut-pimple going on deimos. In fact having a giant nullifier projection tool destroyed is probably good for us since it means less tech for corpus to jack from (since void and sentient tech is how they make nullies and lazor burst turrets and salad amalgams ontop of that).

 

we do need the heart. ALL tech that relies on void energy requires the door to be open, and the heart holds the door open. They even said so in the quest, without the heart there can be no tenno and no solar rails.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...