Deimos: Arcana - Infested Kitguns Megathread

[Redpaws]

My thoughts, looking at the numbers of the grips and loaders (haven't had a chance to try the new chambers, so won't touch on those here)

Loaders:
Thymoid/Macro Acroid shouldn't cost scintillants to build. For only giving mag size, these are way too costly in resources. At the very least, the cost should be lowered to 1 scintillant.
Acroid/Macro Thymoid seem mostly fine, but if it added +0.1x crit damage, like the +crit/-status loaders, it'd be perfect for hybrid builds.

Grips:
For Ulnaris Rattleguts, I feel like the slash/puncture values should be swapped. So an IPS of 3.5/9.5/11.5 instead of 3.5/11.5/9.5 so there's some reason to pick it over Lovetap.
For Palmaris Rattleguts, it's a straight downgrade from Shrewd, doing the same total damage of 18 damage, but at a reduced fire rate of 14.0, down from 15.5 Edit: I got their fire rates mixed up. It's a straight upgrade over Shrewd, being roughly on par with Brash/Steadyslam for DPS (very slightly lower).

Not sure what the recoil/range values are for the new grips. If they're neutral recoil/range (+0%), then Palmaris on the two beam chambers (Gaze/Vermisplicer) is a straight downgrade from Shrewd, offering both reduced range and damage. Hopefully the ranges will be added to the wiki soon.

Ulnaris/Palmaris seem pretty alright. The new +crit/+status loaders would be a real solid option if they also gave +0.1x crit damage, as mentioned above, else I think +crit/-status loaders are still better for crit/status hybrid builds, thanks to the higher crit dmg.

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, s1mpletony said:

Secondary Vermisplicer only gets a poor 7.8% SC even with the highest SC loader like Ramflare. This forces players to build crit-only Vermisplicer.

Status chance is theoretically not an issue on the weapon. This is due to the way beam weapons with multishot function - when hitting an enemy with multiple "projectiles", the status chance of them adds up.

Of course the wide spread can make it impossible to actually hit a single enemy with more than one beam, but that is an issue in itself.

[-Zoe]

21分钟前 , Traumtulpe 说:

Status chance is theoretically not an issue on the weapon. This is due to the way beam weapons with multishot function - when hitting an enemy with multiple "projectiles", the status chance of them adds up.

Of course the wide spread can make it impossible to actually hit a single enemy with more than one beam, but that is an issue in itself.

My bad, it is "status chance/projectile" instead of overall "status chance", so it's more like a shotgun regarding status procs. But still, the horrible aiming mechanism makes it unusable.

[(PSN)tronero17]

En 20/11/2020 a las 1:26, pewpewstar dijo:

anyone know if fortuna and deimos parts can be mixed?

They can

[Supern00b7]

On 2020-11-20 at 11:21 AM, Voltage said:

Please consider making all modular systems in Warframe fully modular by allowing seamless swapping of parts. This problem continues to grow at an alarming rate, and the frustration only grows over time. I understand that this is a huge thing to tackle from a development perspective, but it is a necessary one.

...

I agree with Voltage on this. It gives you developers the flexibility to design newer parts later, to broaden our gameplay better than us crafting entire kitguns repeatedly.

Take Zaws for example. Of all the strikes, I only used Mewan, Balla and the Plague Zaws. I don't bother to explore the other Zaws as I don't want to disappoint myself by rebuilding a whole new modular to improvise it, or scraping something that I already stacked with forma. 

Kind of removes the 'fun' aspect of modular weapons, but I can only use so much weapons. 

[Krustable]

So my Vermisplicer kitgun(secondary) is listing damage stats for "reload form empty" and "partial reload" in the arsenal screen,  is this some kind of weird ui bug? it definitely isn't doing any sort of damage when I reload it and  wasnt this mechanic part of the Catabolyst secondary released with this update?

[Caidezes]

Is it just me or is the secondary Vermisplicer range absolutely terrible? Like, I get the range tradeoff for damage, but with the Haymaker grip it has a 10 meter range. It really doesn't seem worth using with that grip at all. It'd be less of an issue if Ruinous Extension was an Exilus mod, but it's not.

[Kammakazi]

The Vermisplicer Primary has some issues.

The base damage needs a buff. The tentacles locking onto the body automatically becomes a huge DPS decrease because you're not hitting the head aka weak points. The tentacles will start attacking whatever is behind the enemy you are currently shooting at.

Some more info in my video's description:

Quote

One being, the damage being on the low side for a beam weapon. Fully modded, with 5 Forma, Hunter Munitions + Viral, it struggles to kill things past lv. 100 (I wouldn't dare bring this to a Steel Path mission)

Two, the major issue. Headshots will count for the first 1 to 1.5 seconds on shoot, but eventually it will start attaching itself to the body, thus not hitting the head/weakspots. This can be proven by the Argon Scope mod. You will find it not refreshing, despite your crosshairs being directly on the head. This is especially severe because Hunter Munitions relies on headshots to get even stronger bleed ticks.

Three, it has problematic targeting. The soft lock-on of this gun will start to target things BEHIND what you are actually aiming at. The enemy that is directly in front of you, will be completely ignored and start targeting whatever is behind it. I suspect this has to do with the end point of the beam's range. This is most noticeable in situations where the enemies are tightly packed.

 

[Kammakazi]

The Vermisplicer secondary also has issues.

Quote

This thing is strong... when you're up in the enemy's face.

The main problem with this gun is that the damage you're getting is solely based on your RNG with the tentacles. The tentacles move VERY erratically in a circular motion around your crosshairs. If you're right in front of the enemy's face/body, it's no problem, the tentacles will be hitting something. If you're 4 meters, like shown in the video, you will see problem. 8 meters, good luck. 20 meters? Pray that the tentacles actually consistently hit.

Because it's treated like a shotgun (status/projectile), you will also suffer from damage fall off. At point blank, it's great (but at that point, why wouldn't I just melee?), 4 meters it's useable, 8 meters is where it just becomes really bad.

 

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, Krustable said:

So my Vermisplicer kitgun(secondary) is listing damage stats for "reload form empty" and "partial reload" in the arsenal screen,  is this some kind of weird ui bug?

It's still doing that? Yes, those are stats for an exploding magazine (the Catabolyst has these stats). I suppose there are more urgent things to fix than a harmless UI bug. None of the Kitguns actually make use of those stats, you can safely ignore them.

[Mephane]

Is it an oversight that we cannot let Father assemble and gild kitguns? I was looking forward to that option instead of going to Rude Zuud because the token-reputation system of Deimos is far better than the old system in Fortuna.

[randomCasualPlayer]

Um ..... that 【 Energizing Shot 】is supposed to be there?

Since it's Sporelacer (count as AoE, no?)  ...... it can get multiple Energy Orbs from it's explosion btw.

Bug?

Thank you very much

Edit : Sorry, should've gone to Bug thread, I think. Probably mods can move it. Thanks.

[Infernum]

The secondary fire for the Vermisplicer doesnt even work for me, Ive changed my keybind many times for it and it still doesnt ever shoot.

EDIT: Nvm I brainfarted, Secondary fire is for secondary version of the weapon I assume

[idSmoker]

On 2020-11-19 at 8:21 PM, Voltage said:

Please consider making all modular systems in Warframe fully modular by allowing seamless swapping of parts. This problem continues to grow at an alarming rate, and the frustration only grows over time. I understand that this is a huge thing to tackle from a development perspective, but it is a necessary one.

I completely agree!

I think it would make sense that you can freely swap parts, resetting the weapon level to 0 of course, as much as you want... until the weapon is gilded, at which point the weapon's parts should be locked.  In fact, this seems logical, and lore-consistent, enough that I wonder if it wasn't the original plan for "gilding" modular equipment, but perhaps they ran out of time before releasing the first Zaws, and consider it too much effort to go back and fix at this point.

[SnakeBadger]

add kitgun parts and zaws to bossfights in all planets, this should have some amps, emotes, emojis added, as well ephantes fight, doom based elemental procs or black, void procs, arcanes, and for instance alad v can drop k-drive and archwing parts for railjack and other sci-fi glyphs and cs (shimery jesus ) points to trade, alot of players have to redo the fights and will get bored if they have to help a friend out, the same goes for ghouls and infested they have no unique loot, and often they cant use weapons or magic, so they are a bit predictable and you just blow them up , it would be good to see them frozen and other effects to contrast per tileset, like a drown sahagin or metamophosed creature that surpased beta phases will make one wall which is dangerous and can be destroyed, latching to weapons and computers will make them gods and warframes of their own, since most tilesets have bodysuits dangling that they can pilot and shoot at players with riffles, but they have different heads like the players have nekrasuits or watever, i havent been able to play lately but i know that some missions is just crazy take-over i hope there is some balancing to infested tilesets and enemies so they can enjoy other settings, machinery and godmode.

[Arsonistic]

Maybe instead of adding a bunch of new Grips/Loaders with minor stat variations that are never gonna be used, how about balacing the ones that already exist? Loaders and Grips are just stat variations, and with how badly they're balanced there's only ever one of each that will be used. Adding new parts just increases the chance of players making an inferior choice, with zero additional strategic value. Especially considering how minor and pointless the differences between many of the parts are. For example: do we really need 5 different Grips? Very Fast, Fast, Neutral, Slow and Very Slow could just be boiled down to 3 instead: Fast, Neutral and Slow. This would not only make it easier for the user to pick their preference, but also make balacing easier. Same with loaders: Small, Medium and Large magazines with Crit, Hybrid or Status stats. That would reduce the number of Loaders from the current 20 to a more manageable 9.

[Redpaws]

I'm still hoping that the new +crit/+status loaders will get slightly buffed. I WANT to make a new kitgun with it, but the stats aren't quite there to make it feel worthwhile. Again, it should also give +0.1x crit damage, and/or +4% crit/status instead of +3%.

And this is a more general kitgun thing rather than infested kitgun specific, but...
Low damage grips should have a higher DPS than high damage grips. Or at the VERY least, the DPS should be equal. High damage grip already got far superior sustained damage, I don't see why it needs to also have far superior burst damage. Best example of this in action is primary Rattleguts, where Tremor (max damage) does 15-19% higher DPS than any other grip, while also dealing 31-218% more damage per magazine. The tradeoff should be ammo efficiency vs DPS, but right now, any Rattleguts not running Tremor is just strictly inferior in every case. This trend is pretty common throughout most of the chambers, though beams are a bit different, since you trade damage for range, instead of fire rate.

[Colyeses]

On 2020-11-22 at 12:20 AM, Traumtulpe said:

It's still doing that? Yes, those are stats for an exploding magazine (the Catabolyst has these stats). I suppose there are more urgent things to fix than a harmless UI bug. None of the Kitguns actually make use of those stats, you can safely ignore them.

Is that true though? Feels like the grenade is much stronger on an emptied out clip than it is on a partial clip. Animation's different too, I think.

[Harutomata]

I really like the Sporelacer for secondary. It's like Kulstar except more fun to use.

As for the Vermisplicer secondary I'm not sure whether the range is meant to be this short or it's bugged, but it definitely needs change. I'm using a Lovetap grip for it, and it only has around half as much range Gaze would with the exact same grip. When the enemy is a slide away and the gun still doesn't reach it, I'm better off using melee. I suppose some other grips would increase the range but at the expense of damage (or using Ruinous Extension would be at the expense of a mod slot), it feels more like there's a big issue with its base range itself right now. I went with the Lovetap instead Haymaker because I thought it'd be a 24m (like it'd be for Gaze), close to the 25m I like on the Nukor, but after testing it seems it's more like a 12-14m instead. Even the range thing aside, it feels kinda clunky to use.
I wanted to check this weapon because it sounded fun and the damage type spread is fascinating and a lot different to other multiple target beam weapons I like, but unless it's gonna be looked at I don't think I will be using it.

I'd also like to suggest that there should be a clear indicator at kitgun building what will be the range of a beam weapon. Atleast I don't think there is such right now, unless I missed it haha

[GilgaMelchi]

Heya,

Unless I'm missing some etymology knowledge and "thym-" and "arcr-" mean something that I don't know (and google doesn't want to help me on this), it feels like the names of the Loaders have been inverted. (Maybe "arcr-" means "extreme" and "thym-" means "restrained", I genuinely don't know, I'm just tossing some random thoughts here)

Here are the stats I gathered ingame from Rude Zuud :

Quote

Macro Arcroid : huge mag size, medium status and crit
Macro Thymoid : bigger mag size, high status and crit
Thymoid : big mag size, medium status and crit
Arcroid : medium mag size, high status and crit

"Macro" just means "big", this far is ok.

However what bothers me is :
Macro Arcroid has bigger mag and lower status/crit than Macro Thymoid.
But then Thymoid has bigger mag and lower status/crit than Arcroid.

IMO it doesn't make sense that they get inverted stats depending on if they are "macro" or not. It would make more sense if the "arcroid" family had the same status/crit, and the other stats for the "thymoid" family.

Also, maybe that could explain why the descriptions were messed up too? 🤔

[Graavarg]

A primary Sporelacer is a "shotgun" (= uses shotgun mods), but is firing only one projectile. The projectile explodes (has radial attack numbers and everything) but there is no primary shotgun version of "Firestorm" (and, of course, no Primed version of such a mod either). This might be intentional, a way of keeping a primary Sporelacer in check. Or it might be an oversight, due to Sporelacer being new to the game. It is a bit illogical though, since you can use Fulmination on a secondary version of Sporelacer.

It feels like Sporelacer is, by coincidence, a victim of the history and evolution of how weapons have been "sorted" in Warframe (damage calculation models), since you can apply an improved explosion radius to assault rifles, rocket launchers, snipers, bows, pistols, beam weapons, grenade launchers and to secondary shotguns (including weapons like Twin Kohmak, if you wanted to do so), even new weapons like Sepulcrum. But not to (primary) "shotguns".

Oversight or not, considering the limited mod options available for a single-projectile "shotgun", getting a primary shotgun version of Firestorm/Fulmination would be a welcome addition and open up a new way to test modding and using the weapon. Or alternatively, and maybe a bit more easily as well, simply change Firestorm to be usable on (all) "primaries".

[Colyeses]

On 2020-11-26 at 4:20 PM, Redpaws said:

Low damage grips should have a higher DPS than high damage grips.

No, high damage grips should have a higher potential DPS, because lower rate of fire means higher pressure on accuracy, less effectiveness against larger groups (overkill isn't worth anything) and absolutely zero worth against object health, specifically nullifier bubbles.

Rapidfire should trade lower DPS for greater ease of use.

[Redpaws]

14 hours ago, Colyeses said:

No, high damage grips should have a higher potential DPS, because lower rate of fire means higher pressure on accuracy, less effectiveness against larger groups (overkill isn't worth anything) and absolutely zero worth against object health, specifically nullifier bubbles.

Rapidfire should trade lower DPS for greater ease of use.

I'll have to hard disagree on this. Aiming a Rattleguts with Tremor (9 fire rate) isn't harder than aiming one with Brash (17 fire rate), especially since you can reduce the recoil to almost nothing with Stabilizer, regardless of grip used. And even without Stabilizer, and with Tremor having 'greater recoil', the ACTUAL recoil ends up being about the same due to the difference in fire rate (less fire rate = less instances of recoil). And 9 is still a quite decent fire rate to have.

For slower firing guns like Catchmoon/Sporelacer etc, the tradeoff should be alpha damage vs DPS (currently high damage grips gives both the highest DPS and alpha). Only kitgun that seems to be decently balanced for the grips is primary Tombfinger, in my opinion. Either you get fast charging shots, or really slow, heavy damage ones, which makes it feel like there's an actual tradeoff, rather than "Max damage grips are always the best", like it is for everything not a primary Tombfinger or a beam kitgun.

[Colyeses]

12 minutes ago, Redpaws said:

Aiming a Rattleguts with Tremor (9 fire rate) isn't harder than aiming one with Brash (17 fire rate)

I'm not talking about how hard it is to aim. The reticule moves the same on either. I'm referring to how much DPS is lost when a shot goes wide. Tremor loses 1/9th, Brash 1/17th. This means bad aim has more impact on Tremor's performance than on Brash's. 

And, as I mentioned, overkill is worth nothing. If every shot is a kill, Brash can score almost twice the kill count. 

Additionally, Brash would be far better against Nullifiers. 

And Brash would work far better with status effects due to stacking it faster, while Tremor wouldn't scale better with crit.

Overall, if Tremor and Brash had the same DPS, or if Brash had more, there would be no reason to ever use Tremor. Brash would be better with status, equal with crits, better versus crowds, equal against heavy targets, better against object health, and put less pressure on the player's aim.

[Redpaws]

On 2020-12-06 at 11:34 PM, Colyeses said:

If every shot is a kill, Brash can score almost twice the kill count. 

This is objectively false unless you're using an actual aimbot, as there's no way in hell you'd hit 17 unique targets per second. Even hitting 9 unique targets per second would be more or less impossible for a human, at least doing so even remotely consistently. You'd have a point if the higher fire rate grips came with a bigger mag, but it doesn't. That's part of the loaders, and the loaders are the same regardless of the grip used.

On 2020-12-06 at 11:34 PM, Colyeses said:

Overall, if Tremor and Brash had the same DPS, or if Brash had more, there would be no reason to ever use Tremor. Brash would be better with status, equal with crits, better versus crowds, equal against heavy targets, better against object health, and put less pressure on the player's aim.

Tremor would still be better against crowds due to being able to sustain fire for longer, higher sustained damage (less reloads), far better ammo economy if you're not using Pax Charge (more relevant to secondary/shotgun kitguns though), and makes much better use of Pax Seeker. Taking down heavy targets would be slower for Tremor if it did less DPS, but you'd only use half the ammo to do so. And this is assuming that the Tremor does less DPS than Brash. It does not. The only valid points are that higher rate of fire is better for status (mainly for priming them for a CO melee) and for taking down nullifier bubbles, neither which really care about your damage output.

To make a comparison of their strengths...
Tremor vs Brash rattleguts

Tremor pros:
15~% higher DPS
Massively higher sustained DPS (+118~% damage per mag)
Better Pax Seeker synergy
Better ammo economy

Brash pros:
Applies status faster (+89~% fire rate)
Destroys nullifier bubbles faster (also due to fire rate)

I don't think these strengths are really balanced against one another, aside from pure status builds. If Brash had been the one doing 10-15% higher DPS instead, I think it would have been fair. An advantage in burst DPS vs advantage in sustained DPS, instead of superior burst AND sustained DPS vs neither, as it is currently.

Edit: The grips for all auto/semi auto kitguns (so not beams/charge up ones) should be rebalanced to have equal (or very close to equal) DPS. Simply take the desired DPS, divide it by the fire rate, and presto, there's the damage value each grip should give. That way you can use any grip without gimping yourself, since the choice then would only be between faster status proccing vs sustained/alpha damage.