Deimos: Arcana - New Arcanes Megathread

[DrivaMain]

All residuals are terrible because the damage does not scale with mods and terrible status chance. I see the residuals as a balance gate for the theorem arcanes. Let them scale with mods please, Pax Seekers literally dominates them.

Theorem infection do not work and Theorem Contagion is impractical if you are facing hordes of enemies. 

 

 

[Colyeses]

A quick and dirty way to resolve the problem: Make Theorem slot directly into kitguns, make the Residuals an innate effect of the Theorems, choosing its element based on the emissive/energy colour of the kitgun.

I'll think a bit more on a possible overhaul that retains the combo mechanism.

[Xandis]

Possible bug: Theorem Demulcent and Theorem Infection stacks stop refreshing once they've reached 15 stacks. Meaning after 20 seconds, the buffs are lost and a new stack will have to be built up.

Realized that's supposed to go to the Bug Megathread. Some feedback:

Having so many Arcanes clumped together in one drop table doesn't seem ideal. Either all the Kitgun Arcanes or the Warframe Arcanes should be moved to Father as a Entrati Standing sink. As it stands, there's no standing sink with any of the Entrati members.

[Sahansral]

There's seems to be a bug with both the duration and the refresh of the Theorem buffs.
Also having two theorems equipped, the activation of the theorems per residual seems to get les reliant. I expected both theorems to get activated.

In the moment the investement of 2 arcane slots isn't worth the effect. Way too unreliable, way too much work. More stress than fun. It get's worse when you dedicate 3 or even 4 arcane slots.

Especially Theorem Contagion and Theorem infection don't seem to have any effect at all.

tldr; DE, please get rid of the bugs and really think about increasing the fun using these arcanes.

[AbelKurayami]

I took a bit of a video to show that Theorem Infection doesn't seem to be doing anything at all even though it should effect summons, it does not

 

 

[Colyeses]

Okay, for a bigger fix...

If you want to do this idea, DE, going in hard might be the only way to salvage this stuff.

Denote the Theorems as a new class of Arcane and give Warframes an extra Arcane slot that can exclusively be used by this new class, similar to how an Exilus slot can only hold an Exilus mod.

Then either do the same for the Residuals and weapons (IE: Allow ALL weapons to carry a combo-oriented kitgun arcane) OR allow the Residuals to scale better/at all in order to make them more competitive with obvious picks like Pax Seeker, while also reworking existing kitgun arcanes to allow them to trigger the Theorems.

---

Another issue that needs to be addressed is Arcane levelling: Yes, they should get stronger, but there's no need for them to improve on ALL possible factors, especially if this means that some of the functionality is going to be cut out by virtue of the stats being too low. Examples in this batch of arcanes are Contagion's vulnerability duration lasting only one second, while the orbs take longer to refire, meaning that unranked, this effect is entirely inapplicable, and Residuals scaling their proc chance.

Unranked Arcanes should be bad, sure, but they shouldn't cancel themselves out.

Just to make it a bit more insightful, let's go over the scaling of Contagion and the Residuals.

Contagion

Good scaling:

• Damage. For obvious reasons. This is the most comfortable way to make an arcane scale.
• Vulnerability %. It's basically the same thing as damage.

Meh scaling:

• Globe duration: Allowing players to hold onto them for longer is nice, but at lower levels, it's too aggressive. Instead of 5 seconds per rank, make it 3, giving it 18-30 seconds.

Bad scaling:

• Vulnerability duration: This flat out doesn't work before max rank due to the orbs' targeting and fire rate. Fix at 6 or higher at all ranks.

 

Residuals

Good scaling:

• Damage. Obviously.
• Range. It's definitely usable at lower ranks, but the extra range is very appreciable which makes this feel very rewarding to increase while not punishing at lower rank.

Meh Scaling:

• Duration. Bit too aggressive with how dependent Theorems are on them. Reduce from 3 per rank to 2 per rank, so it becomes 6/8/10/12 to be less restrictive early while retaining the reward.

Bad Scaling:

• Proc chance. This is an awful proc mechanism, but having the lower ranks just flat out refuse to proc over 90% of cases is the worst thing you can do. Best to replace it with a different proc effect, but if you must go with % chance, fix it to one value across all ranks so that it can at least exist.

---

Contagion-specific feedback: The description is exceedingly confusing. I don't get why it remarks that the orbs orbit the player every 2 seconds when that is a purely cosmetic effect. A more accurate description of the effect would be:

• Every second you stand in a Residual zone, you gain one orb. Every second, one orb is fired at a nearby enemy, applying the status effect of the Residual element and dealing damage, while rendering the target vulnerable to further orb shots for a time.

And while this effect is... Okay, gameplay wise, it is literally just Null Star/Desolate Hands. While the other two Theorems retain their stacks for a set duration, Theorem Contagion both times out and is expended with use. An easy buff would be to remove orb lifespan altogether and allow them to linger until expended, but a more interesting buff for gameplay would be to allow the orbs to return to the player after striking a target.

Make every individual orb fire once per two seconds, meaning that a large congregation of orbs would end up becoming a revolving barrage of shots. That is something we only sort of see in Grasp of Lohk, and it would be a far more interesting thing, gameplay and effects-wise than just a single shot per orb, in addition to being more consistent with the other two Theorems.

Of course, adjust damage values and scaling accordingly. I recommend using level-dependent scaling, it worked for Grasp of Lohk and Flechettes and it can really work here too, I feel.

[Traumtulpe]

19 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

give Warframes an extra Arcane slot that can exclusively be used by this [...] do the same for the Residuals and weapons

Please just delete them instead if you can't make them worth using. I don't want slots reserved for literal garbage on my equipment.

[Colyeses]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Please just delete them instead if you can't make them worth using. I don't want slots reserved for literal garbage on my equipment.

Why not? If you don't want to use them, you can just leave the slot blank.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, Colyeses said:

Why not? If you don't want to use them, you can just leave the slot blank.

How about you put a dent in the shape of a turd in your car?

[Colyeses]

13 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

How about you put a dent in the shape of a turd in your car?

You'd rather the gameplay suffer than have the aesthetics of the UI change with the addition of a third arcane slot?

[Traumtulpe]

There currently is no benefit to gameplay with any of these arcanes.

[Colyeses]

32 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

There currently is no benefit to gameplay with any of these arcanes.

Which is why I'm suggesting improvements.

[(PSN)General_May-Ham]

I've really been looking forward to Deimos Arcana hitting consoles. That said these arcanes are probably the weakest part of the update. I would rather not see them as rewards.

These arcanes are the new worst in class for both the kitgun and warframe arcane categories.

These combined effects don't compete with existing warframe arcanes that proc consistently with all secondary weapons, even if you didn't need to collect 31 arcanes via bounty RNG and use two arcane slots. 

Please take these arcanes out of bounties and place them in Deimos vendor inventories. I strongly recommend that the effect of these arcanes scale either with enemy level or with mods.

[ssmagus]

The effects of the Residuals really needs to be better (no status procs? isn't the point of them also the be small CC fields? the toxin one can do more dps instead), Theorem Demulcent is alot stronger than people give credit for. (primed element mod on every weapon for little work? it's a very large dps increase over time, much higher than other arcanes) People just want arcanes that let them get buff now I guess.

The other two Theorems are pretty bad, Infection is pointless or useless, Either enemies are too weak for buffing your cat/nekros shadows to matter or they are strong enough that a buffed cat/shadow still does no damage to the enemy.

Contagion is a single target resist drop and anything that wants to drop heat/cold/elec/tox resist massively are ember/frost/volt. But if you are just getting a single target drop it doesn't help for any sort of large aoe damage increase even more so if your nuking removes targets for you to kill with your kitgun.

[Lutesque]

On 2020-11-20 at 3:34 AM, TheLordOmega2 said:

A 20% chance to proc is too unreliable, hell, i'd prefer a "every 5 enemy killed" (even if that's still low) some would say that's the same thing, but if you ever touched a dice, you know it's not.

This.... It's fundamentally the same thing except it's easier to plan around....

They should just do that with all the RNG.

On 2020-11-20 at 3:34 AM, TheLordOmega2 said:

also, theorems should have a use on their own, you can't talk about synergy if one part completely depends on the other.

That's a Dependency not a Synergy right ? I really hate those.

Also kudos on having the first Response also be the most interesting.... 

How you managed to get ahead of the expected "Thanks DE" Response is genuinely staggering.... 

Be honest... You have a Time Machine, don't you ? 🧐.

On 2020-11-20 at 10:43 AM, Santvarg said:

They're not MEANT to do anything on their own, I don't see why they should need to, if they were literally created to work in a pair

I mean... Sure... Fine.... But with these Stats... that's only going to just hurt them.

On 2020-11-21 at 12:26 AM, Colyeses said:

Interdependency is not synergy.

Oh cool... So I was close... 🙂... Thanks.

On 2020-11-21 at 12:26 AM, Colyeses said:

Interdependence in this format is not supported by current loadout set-ups. You'd need to swap warframe arcanes every time you swap onto or off your kitgun, which makes for a far greater hassle than permissible for a sub-standard arcane that takes two slots.

Maybe the idea is to Validate the existence of Load Out Slots even more....

I myself have always wanted more.... But I never bought one... Not until they fix the fact that Spoiler Mode's loadout is unaffected.

On 2020-11-21 at 4:52 AM, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

I'm already personally pretty skeptical when it comes to On Kill effects (since if you can kill one enemy there's a good chance you can kill them all anyway, so the effect has to be notably strong or tied to other utility to even matter),

A man/woman after my own Heart... 

I feel the exact same way about on kill effects and avoid them like the plague... If I'm already getting kills... Chances are I don't need it... 

And even if that's not the case then at the very least such a build would be Balancing on a Knife's edge where if you miss a Kill then you are completely Screwed with no chance to Recover. If your ability to kill effectively depends on your ability to get kills in the first place then that's not good if the buff wears off for whatever reason...

I've often heard Nidus being Described this way. 

On 2020-11-21 at 3:07 PM, Traumtulpe said:

You screwed with the Kitguns I built one too many times, I'm done with them. There are much better weapons anyway.

I remember when they Introduced Primaries and the Tombfinger Primary's charge Rate was completely unaffected by the Grip you used..... So I just used the one that gave the most damage..... Then they Hotfixed it the next day so that the Grip affected the charge Rate after I had already built my Tombfinger Primary...

That was really infuriating...

Look... I get that an Update isn't perfect when it launches and that A hotfix later is necessary to fix additional issues.... But some of the things that slip through the Cracks are genuinely confusing sometimes.

How could you not realise that the Grips are suppose to affect the Charge Rate ? 

And while we are on the subject... Why don't Archguns follow the Same Rules ? Unlike regular weapons... Archguns have a Seperate mod for Charge Rate.

Instead of just using Automatic Trigger... 😐 ....

On 2020-11-21 at 3:07 PM, Traumtulpe said:

You want us to stand still? For 15 seconds? How about no? I'll just use a real Arcane and keep moving, thank you very much.

Like a real Ninja 😎...

On 2020-11-23 at 1:23 AM, Randomnumbers_ said:

This is probably my first post on these forums, so please bear with me as I vent my frustration.

Don't hold back... Sing it from the Heart !!!

Seriously though it's good to vent alil but not like some of the other users who tend to go over board...

On 2020-11-25 at 7:15 AM, AbelKurayami said:

After messing around with it a bit, it seems Theorem infection might be broken. I'm not noticing the companions, nor summoned allies/minions do any increased damage at all which is a bit odd

As someone who put 5 Forma into 7 Pets I would be extremely Infuriated if this was the case....

 

[Lutesque]

On 2020-12-03 at 8:02 AM, Xandis said:

Having so many Arcanes clumped together in one drop table doesn't seem ideal. Either all the Kitgun Arcanes or the Warframe Arcanes should be moved to Father as a Entrati Standing sink. As it stands, there's no standing sink with any of the Entrati members.

Maybe they want us to Trade for them.... But just like  when they launched The Deadlock Protocol this had mixed Results since the the Granuum rewards were super lob sided.

 

Also trying to Trade for Items instead of Platinum is a Pipe Dream 😞.

On 2020-12-04 at 4:15 PM, Colyeses said:

Denote the Theorems as a new class of Arcane and give Warframes an extra Arcane slot that can exclusively be used by this new class, similar to how an Exilus slot can only hold an Exilus mod.

Oh dear... The Complexity Increases 😮 !!!

Sorry... Didn't mean to sound so negative.

On 2020-12-04 at 4:36 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Please just delete them instead if you can't make them worth using. I don't want slots reserved for literal garbage on my equipment.

LoL... This was funny.... I mean... It's the kind of funny that has Abit of Anger hiding deep inside of me because I feel the same way... But still kinda funny.

On 2020-12-04 at 4:37 PM, Colyeses said:

Why not? If you don't want to use them, you can just leave the slot blank.

It may or may not confuse who haven't gotten used to Modding just yet....

Of course that's a dumb excuse on my part because the slot can simply be kept hidden until they acquire said Garbage Arcane.... So just forget you even read this 😝...

On 2020-12-04 at 4:38 PM, Traumtulpe said:

How about you put a dent in the shape of a turd in your car?

Not cool... 😐 ...

[Kainosh]

I wanna put Residual on Zaws. 

I think Modular arcanes should be compatible with any Modular weapon.

[Graavarg]

After trying these out it seems to me to be a good (new) idea that was then nerfed by introducing mechanics in order to safeguard it from becoming too powerful. The result (from a "using theorems/residuals in play"-viewpoint) is a logical mish-mash rendering the new arcanes basically unusable. This is unfortunate, since the idea of "synergising" arcanes and allowing a mix-and-match of abilities is a good one, with potential to be further enlarged and thus add to game (complexity 🙂).

A lot of the problems with the new arcanes can summed up as "no control" over "when" and "where":

• The 20% chance of spawning an area makes the Residual zone into just another random occurrence, and since standing in such a zone is needed for the Theorem to kick in the Theorem effect also becomes a random thing. This is even further complicated ("nerfed") by the short durations, in order to use the arcane synergy you need to rush to a newly created zone (to get the most out of it before it times out) and then you need to quickly create a new one and rush to that, to continue increasing the buff and to stop the buff from disappearing. To sum this up, game-wise you need to rush between randomly created and short-lived zones (which aren't that easy to see) with one eye on a timer and another one on the minimap, while all the time hoping for enough enemies and luck to get a new zone somewhere.
• Since you have no control over where the residual zone is created the new synergy is basically useless in mission types which have a stationary stage, since in order to use it you would have to move to where the enemies are when killed. This not only means leaving your squad/defense objective/capture point/excavator/"preferred spot", it also means "not going back there" (since you have to stay inside the zone in order for the synergy to be useful). All this is accentuated by killing enemies farther away (and by mission maps with larger areas).

There are also some other "negatives":

• The new arcanes basically add a new random layer of "goto"-points to your mission (now go to that spot, now go to that spot, now go to that spot, now go to that spot...), which while increasing your damage output also increases stress and decreases enjoyment.
• The mechanics of the new arcanes affects one of the basic co-op mechanism in the game, resurrecting fallen comrades and pets. If you have managed to achieve synergy and someone goes down, you have to chose between losing your achieved buff or letting them die. Because if you go to res someone, you will lose the synergy effect.
• Using them should add to the fun of playing Warframe, not reduce your enjoyment. Simply put, while getting more damage by an interesting new synergy mechanic is "fun", but the randomness and un-control of everything makes it "un-fun". I don't mind complicated stuff (I rather like it), but complicated stuff outside my control sucks.
• All other forms of killing enemies (i.e. not using your Residual-equipped kitgun) is a direct negative drawback to the synergy effect. This not only includes all of your abilities and your sentinel/pet, it also includes your squad mates. Mathematically/statistically you are less likely to get the synergy effect going the more enemies your squad kills. With a residual zone-chance of "one enemy in five" and a rather short time-out on the buff it is quite frustrating playing with good squadmates. In fact, the current system sort of re-introduces the "kill steal"-irritation (which the affinity system so niftily removes).
• The easiest way to get around some of the current problems is collecting enemies in a preferred spot before killing them, in the hope of creating a residual zone where you actually want it. But this includes using even more mechanistic shenanigans and limits the use of the new arcanes with most warframes, unless you use the Helminth and inject Ensnare/Pull/Larva.

If I understand the synergy mechanism correctly, all squad members (using Theorem arcanes) get the bonus from everyone's residual zones. In pre-def squad compositions this opens up some interesting "squad combos", with the possibility of even splitting up residual and theorem arcanes (one squad member uses a residual to create the zone, another the theorem to benefit from it). But all this is mostly "nerf-killed" by the randomness/uncertainty of it all, in combination with the short timers. There is no way the new arcanes can compete with the "set-and-forget" functionality of the current meta-arcanes. Even if the buffs were a lot higher, no intelligent squad would build a team-comp around this kind of uncertainty and micro-management. Maybe once or twice for fun, but after that it is only "forget".

Despite all this "negativity" I really hope that the synergy-idea gets fixed and survives as part of Warframe. It is a good and interesting new concept, with huge potential. I even totally like the idea of making my pet/sentinel into a killing machine, as anti-meta as that is. I also have one suggestion, since that one alone would fix a lot of the current problems (for me):

• Spawn the zone around the residual arcane that caused it (= the player), not around the random enemy triggering the effect "somewhere". Even with a "20%-only" chance, this would give the player a feeling of "more control" (which currently is THE biggest problem). You could then spawn the zone where you wanted (simply by standing there), which would enormously increase both "mission synergy" and "squad synergy". And it might even make the new arcanes quite fun to use (🙂). It would also incidentally sort of pre-fix the problems of introducing residual arcanes for zaws (where enemies would die much closer to the player "by default").

[DrivaMain]

Please consider allowing converted allies to take advantage of Theorem Infection. Eventhough Enthrall, Mind Control, and Accuse not "summoning" allies they technically fits a summoner playstyle. 

While you're at it. Change the arcane description from "Companion and Summoned Allies" to "Companion, Converted, and summoned allies".

 

[DarthMead]

Am 20.11.2020 um 02:34 schrieb TheLordOmega2:

A 20% chance to proc is too unreliable, hell, i'd prefer a "every 5 enemy killed" (even if that's still low) some would say that's the same thing, but if you ever touched a dice, you know it's not.

also, theorems should have a use on their own, you can't talk about synergy if one part completely depends on the other.

synergy is two things working together right?, they dont *have* to work on their own, while that would obviously increase these arcanes effectivenes and useability, its not a necessity from what i understand. correct me if i'm wrong but i think thats how that works.

[Colyeses]

9 minutes ago, DarthMead said:

synergy is two things working together right?, they dont *have* to work on their own, while that would obviously increase these arcanes effectivenes and useability, its not a necessity from what i understand. correct me if i'm wrong but i think thats how that works.

No, I'd say synergy is when two functional things combine to produce a greater result than the sum of their parts. It's two effects that bounce off each other to create a third result.

Either way, the Theorems must be usable on their own if they want a place in a very cutthroat market. 

[_Anise_]

On 2020-11-20 at 6:37 AM, Santvarg said:

Naturally a Kubrow as it's the only one that does meaningful damage if and when it hits, right now

really? which one ? I thought the Panzer Vulpaphyla was the only pet worth bothering with for damage ? also did those new deimos pet mods make much difference to anything ?

[Redfeather75]

Any news on if these arcanes will be made into something useable. I got excited to see new arcanes added since I last left warframe, but found out they so random and weak it's no wonder I have yet to see any group member using them.

[Santvarg]

I would really like to see residual arcanes be triggered much more consistently, perhaps per so many kills, or just 100% on kill with a short cooldown of like 7 seconds or so

I wanna use my kitgun a few times a fight to spawn circles on enemies and then melee to apply bleed to enable my kubrow's 6-digit crits
Played with it some, and it really seems like I gotta use it most of the time

even though infection is more damage than the hunter set (assuming they're both additive with basic damage mods), I'd still currently use melee and hunter set over kitgun and this

If Infection IS elemental damage and goes after basic damage modifiers and additive to elemental damage, then it's quite a crazy amount of damage added, but would likely cause me to drop most of the hunter set and the constant weapon switching which I was looking forwards to

Very little info on this. This thread suggests that it's elemental damage based on the Residual. I cant confirm or deny, yet, at least

Hope devs are still considering changing these, and watchign this thread. I'd love for these to get QOL changes. Most people disregard them outright, but they could be more

[Traumtulpe]

On 2021-04-25 at 6:57 AM, Santvarg said:

Hope devs are still considering changing these, and watchign this thread.

Lol. You didn't see the "1 month later..." disclaimer? These arcanes are dead. Throw them on pile.

There are much more important bugs that need fixing anyhow. We also have nothing to do in the game as of current, as far as I am concerned. What are a couple useless arcanes in comparison, especially when there are already thousands of useless and bugged things in this game?