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Deimos: Arcana - Glaive Changes Megathread


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Welcome Tenno!

With the release of Deimos: Arcana, we have included Glaive Changes! Now there are a lot of changes to cover here, so bear with us:

  • Heavy Attack (aka Glaive detonation) will now do more damage, more consistently! 
  • “Hold throw” mechanics now apply in Equipped Melee mode!
  • In “Glaive + Gun” mode, players must use the melee key to detonate the Glaive while in flight.
    • With only the Glaive in hand, the alt fire button is no longer reserved for your secondary weapon, which allows for added flexibility - press alt fire for a Heavy Attack detonation, or tap melee for a simple recall
  • Glaive throws can now be performed while sliding!
  • Throw melee inputs can be “queued up”, one after the other!
  • Glaives can now be thrown multiple times in a single jump!
  • Melee stance combos are now available in Glaive + Gun mode!
  • Glaive + Gun mode now utilizes melee auto blocking when not aiming or firing!

NEW GLAIVE MODS:

Volatile Rebound: 100% Chance to explode on Bounce (Disables Punch Through).

Volatile Quick Return: -4 Bounce. +100% Blast Radius. 100% chance to explode on Bounce (disables Punch Through). 

GLAIVE STAT REBALANCING:

Cerata

  • Added guaranteed Toxin proc on Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Increased Critical Damage from 2.2 to 2.3x of throw.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 30%.

Falcor

  • Added guaranteed Electricity proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.

Glaive

  • Added guaranteed Impact proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.

Glaive Prime

  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.

Halikar

  • Added guaranteed Impact proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.

Kestrel

  • Added guaranteed Impact proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.
  • Reduced Max self CC from Knocked Down to Stagger.

Orvius

  • Added guaranteed Cold proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.
  • Quick Throws now perform the Hover Attack.

Pathocyst

  • Added guaranteed Viral proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced Max self CC from Knocked Down to Stagger.

Xoris

  • Added guaranteed Electricity proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of these (many) Glaive Changes, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil.

  • If you like an aspect of the new content, tell us what you like.
  • If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better!

Please bear in mind this is not a place to leave bugs you discover while playing. If you do need to report a bug, please use the dedicated Deimos: Arcana Bug-Hunting Megathread!

Thank you!
 

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As a controller player, I don't like the moving of the throw mechanic from the RS to the B button.  Melee is already difficult on a controller, because in order to do it, most people have to give up directional control of your character. 

Until this change, the same couldn't be said for throwing the glaive, and is the mechanic that actually appealed the most to me regarding this weapon archetype specifically.  I was able to easily maneuver, throw, and detonate while maintaining directional control.

If there's any way to revert, or build in the option to revert, this change on a controller I, for one, would welcome it.

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Remove Lifting from Glaive combos(from the game if possible), because when it procs EVERY SINGLE SUBSEQUENT HIT is a miss. Add the old "Gun+Glaive combo chain" somewhere in the stances, as it was superior in every way compared to then.

Edited by jesusdh
Typo
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The Great:

I applaud the development and creative for these QOL changes.

In spite of many other update disappointments, these Glaive changes are remarkable and breathed new life into new playstyles and interactions.  There is tremendous promise for a whole host of builds and a diversity of mod and build use to utilize the glaive and gun mode.  The Flow added by the chained throws elevates the space ninja flow experience and now I finally feel like the charge attack can flow with other gameplay as well.

This is the most cohesive add to this update so far although I wish the falloff was reduced even more so and some of the other glaives like the Pathocyst and Ceraata could have slash procs on heavy to compete with the standard Glaive Prime.

Constructive Suggestions and Room for Potential Improvement

1.) Charged throw to detonation window seems not consistent; that is, the time you have after a charged throw to successfully detonate is a bit buggy in that the mechanic usage of detonation is not as consistent as it was before in that the detonation possibility window seems reduced.

2.) The detonation explosion staggers make the flow of close combat melee to charge throw clunky and cumbersome. Is there any way to mitigate the stagger chance from the explosions so that all aspects of throw, charged throw, and charged throw explosion play can be integrated without being bogged down by incessant staggers?

3.) Lifting from glaive combos has proven very problematic due to the hitboxes and animation set along with the range base stats for glaives.

The Uncertain:

Is the type of explosion dmg is dealt via Volatile Rebound a heavy attack detonation dmg or something else?

Edited by WorldzCollapse
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I bind melee attacks to the mouse wheel (to spam a comfortable melee attack), but the normal attacks and charged throws seem to occur randomly.I recently replaced my mouse with a new one and it reproduced the same way.

 

Similarly, the key hold time for a charged throw seems to be short. Charged throws occur unintentionally in between spamming melee attacks.

However, overall it is a good update. Thanks to the constant efforts of the staff! 🙂

 

 

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So, in general I'm completely ok with and even happy with the conceptual changes to glaive mechanics and how they work, especially with the thought of improving QoL to encourage use of the weapon set. However, I have to point out that whenever you (a developer) make a change to a control scheme, you should also implement simultaneously a setting/keybinding to change that control scheme to some degree, if not back entirely, then at least closer to the original.

For a specific example, which is somewhat highlighted by both devildevil21 and Kuzuri_Zasa (I am using only one of the posts since the content in question is more or less the same):

4 hours ago, devildevil21 said:

Glaives now have the problem every melee had when charged attack was configured to the regular melee attacks. I find myself throwing the glaive accidentally when I'm just hitting the melee button to spam melee attacks. 

and on a different note DD214Alum (while his issue was posted as specific to controller gameplay, the issue persists on the Keyboard+Mouse setup):

6 hours ago, DD214Alum said:

As a controller player, I don't like the moving of the throw mechanic from the [Heavy Attack] to the [Melee (Held)] button.  Melee is already difficult on a controller, because in order to do it, most people have to give up directional control of your character. 

Until this change, the same couldn't be said for throwing the glaive, and is the mechanic that actually appealed the most to me regarding this weapon archetype specifically.  I was able to easily maneuver, throw, and detonate while maintaining directional control.

(please note that I replaced the specific controls in the quote with the action bindings to better suit the discussion, given that as formerly mentioned the issue encountered is not controller or even binding specific) currently the control for throwing the weapon is exclusively to hold down the melee button (whether on controller or keyboard+mouse). The only way to change this currently is to change the melee button, which in turn also brings along the problem cited in devildevil's quote along instead of rectifying it. At the same time, the control to detonate the weapon for those that have a manual detonation (ie: Xoris) is the normal "Heavy Attack" key - a plausibly, and probably, different key, a change that was implemented originally with some of the earlier melee changes specifically to counteract the issue posed by devildevil, which is now once again posed by throwing weapons, ultimately not improving QoL but instead taking it a step backwards. On top of this, if the weapon isn't already in the air the heavy attack key literally does nothing for a thrown melee weapon. So we now have A: a function which should have its own key, which is, because it does not, effectively not re-bindable; and B: a keybind that is re-bindable, but because its functionality has been moved to situation A, now does nothing except in a very specific situation. Lastly, I would like to point out that in addition to the problem that devildevil and others are experiencing with making thrown attacks instead of melees, the opposite case is also true in which, rather than being able to somewhat fluidly switch from a melee storm to throwing the weapon (which, as noted by DD214Alum, existed in the previous configuration), the player now has to actively stop what they're doing in order to make the thrown heavy attack effectively (rather than the random and unintended situation from devildevil's quote), a disconnect that takes several situational moments that, in a fast paced game like this, easily can mean death and defeat for higher level enemies or boss rooms in the worst case and slows down gameplay in the best case (neither good of course).

So, in order to tie this all up constructively and bring us back to the issue at hand, I propose firstly a two-fold fix for at least these issues, wherein A: the keybinding set for "Gun+Glaive" mode is accessible, changeable, and possibly even toggleable (being able to revert to the old, separated control scheme on a player by player basis if desired, however the other two previous options may be more desirable to the devs for reasons that may be more or less their own); and B: the binding for "Throw Thrown weapon" is either given a separate keybinding or remerged with "Heavy Attack" (the former would be able to accomplish the same as the latter by simply having the same key set for both options by the player, while still allowing the players who prefer the newer system to keep them separate). I would also reiterate that, for future reference, when changing a set of controls, if at all possible given the reasons for and types of changes, leave or create a method of rebinding those controls, possibly back to the old configuration if the changes to the mechanics don't disallow as much (and especially when the changes are for the purpose of QoL; in this case, I see no changes added such that the old control scheme couldn't realistically be used by players who preferred it).

Edited by Mcgrolox
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I only have 1 issue with those changes
Why chaining up the throws is set to hold melee button, release and hold again while it comes back?
Wouldnt it be simpler to just hold melee button to continue throwing?

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8 hours ago, DD214Alum said:

As a controller player, I don't like the moving of the throw mechanic from the RS to the B button.  Melee is already difficult on a controller, because in order to do it, most people have to give up directional control of your character. 

Until this change, the same couldn't be said for throwing the glaive, and is the mechanic that actually appealed the most to me regarding this weapon archetype specifically.  I was able to easily maneuver, throw, and detonate while maintaining directional control.

If there's any way to revert, or build in the option to revert, this change on a controller I, for one, would welcome it.

?you haven't remapped your controls from defaults?

(DE defaults suck, cause they don't know how to Controller, they're PC people)

I put my melee button on one of my paddle triggers

so melee and thumbsticks can be used simultaneously....

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On 2020-11-18 at 10:23 AM, [DE]Bear said:
  • In “Glaive + Gun” mode, players must use the melee key to detonate the Glaive while in flight.
    • With only the Glaive in hand, the alt fire button is no longer reserved for your secondary weapon, which allows for added flexibility - press alt fire for a Heavy Attack detonation, or tap melee for a simple recall

 

?meaning? inconsistent behavior?

when Dual Wielding, tapping melee while in flight detonates

but when Melee Only, tapping melee while in flight Does Not Detonate?

can't we just have it Behave the same for both Modes?

I want: Always Detonate if tap melee in flight

 

how about Switch the Priority?

Tap Melee in Flight to Detonate -both modes

press Alt to 'simple recall' -Melee Only mode

That would be more consistent behavior.

 

 

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On 2020-11-18 at 10:23 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Orvius

  • Added guaranteed Cold proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.
  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.
  • Quick Throws now perform the Hover Attack.

 

 

Someone please tell me what a 'Quick Throw' is?

(there's no in-game tutorial to explain these Terms)

and how it relates to dual wielding gun+glaive mode? because in GG mode as I'm used to, to throw I have to Hold Melee, which doesn't describe 'quick'

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3 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Someone please tell me what a 'Quick Throw' is?

(there's no in-game tutorial to explain these Terms)

and how it relates to dual wielding gun+glaive mode? because in GG mode as I'm used to, to throw I have to Hold Melee, which doesn't describe 'quick'

quick throw is when you press the melee button to call back your glaive mid flight without an explosion, while heavy throw is when you press your heavy melee button to call back your glaive mid flight with an explosion

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55 minutes ago, TheSlickSpeeder said:

quick throw is when you press the melee button to call back your glaive mid flight without an explosion, while heavy throw is when you press your heavy melee button to call back your glaive mid flight with an explosion

ewww

so now Orvius does its Puppet attack only when you manually recall it? hows that work? have to wait till its close to someone then tap melee to activate the effect?

 

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The Phahd Scaffold (which uses a Glaive projectile) now causes self-stagger/knockdown on every hit, on randomly moving projectiles.
These explosions should be removed. If necessary, take the damage with it, I don't care. I just want the amp to be usable again. (Originally, I chose this amp because it didn't stagger.)

I apologize if this isn't the correct place for this feedback, but this megathread was the one that was the closest fit, and I wanted to make sure that this is considered, and if possible, addressed quickly.

In contrast, the proper Melee Glaives perform much better now and definitely feel way smoother!
I am definitely trying out my Pathocyst for a new spin and I am ready to experiment with the new mods. Great this cute weapon gets another chance!

Edited by Her_Lovely_Tentacles
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1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Good job DE you broke glaives. You should have had these up on test before pushing this to live. Do you guys even test this stuff yourselves?

This was on the test server. I assume your issue lies with triggering unwanted throws while using light attacks? This was reported.

It is exactly the same issue we already had in the past with "hold to heavy attack" on all weapons - I seem to remember it taking a month or two (or was it even longer?) of clear and loud feedback for them to finally remove it again.

The sad truth is that very little changed from the test server to release. Some numbers changed, little else. And I believe we made it clear that this would not be enough.

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