Jump to content

Deimos: Arcana - Glaive Changes Megathread


Recommended Posts

Good QoL improvements overall, but I feel like glaives felt more interactive when there was a short window of time before throwing a glaive to make it a charged throw, so you had to be responsive and time it. I think it would feel better to keep the regular charged throw as it is but also have this short window of time just to get a charged throw quicker.

(The same idea could be applied to queued throws to another extent, like pressing E in the small window of time when the glaive gets back to you to throw it back instantly or significantly quicker, but that's a whole other thing.)

Also yeah, as others said it would be nice to get the old Glaive + Gun combo chain somewhere in the stances.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • I keep getting throws mid-combos and that's not a good thing. It is pretty fun to see my frame deflect attacks while just standing without any melee weapon while my glaive flies around the void though.
  • You gave explosions on every throw to Wolf Sledge. Was it the last minute before release decision? I like my Sledge, sure, but I have a question - are multihit AoE non-combo-consuming throws intended, or will they get "fixed" next week?
  • Do you have any plans on giving thrown melee additional mod slots, or is it one of those "use bandaid mods instead of damage mods if you want to enjoy that playstyle in our damage-centered game" situations?
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you clarify how the orvius's special attack is supposed to work?

Quote

Orvius

  • Added guaranteed Cold proc to Heavy Attack Detonation.

  • Reduced AoE fall off from 50% to 40%.

  • Quick Throws now perform the Hover Attack.

In the initial melee update it became a bit broken and the hover attack only activated when you were in melee only, blocking, then used a heavy attack. But it was changed to all heavy attack throws and has been working well for me for the last months.

I use the weapon because i like the puppet mechanic, having 3 seconds safe from the enemy and then unloading a status Tigris into it to charge up condition overload. I usually use this in conjunction with a Lenz and Prime Sure Footed, to negate the self stagger. I would be happy if every throw always performed the hover attack, Just like when Teshin used it. If I preferred it to bounce around the room or explode on return then I would be using Glaive prime or Xoris.

Currently my keybindings are:

Melee attack              E
Melee heavy attack    Mouse button 3 (MMB)
Secondary fire            Mouse button 3

I thought quick attacks meant tapping 'e', this does not throw the glaive
Holding 'e' either with melee only or melee+Tigris will throw and it bounced like 7 times.
tapping 'e' while that is thrown makes it explode and return early.
tapping or holding MMB appears to do nothing for this glaive, though it does perform heavy attacks on my redeemer still.
I don't know what else to try.

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

The changes feel good, but there's still a couple of awkward things:

1) When in Glaive & Gun mode, why does aiming interrupt the throw? There are plenty of times when I'm in mid-air, start winding up the throw, then want to aim glide for more precision, but aim gliding prevents the throw! The system should assume that as long as I'm still holding the melee button, I fully intend to throw, whether I begin aiming or not.

2) The fact that heavy detonation has two different inputs, depending on whether you are in melee mode or Glaive & Gun mode, is awkward. I would suggest either combining "recall" and "heavy detonation" together [might mess with people who want to maintain high combo counter & still recall their glaives] or simply add an option in settings "Glaive recall includes detonation" akin to "context action includes reload."  

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Volatile Quick Return does not function properly, and does not function at all on the Falcor (still need to test on rest of the glaives and try Volatile Rebound but cannot get it to drop)
1. Explosion does not seem to recieve it's own plast radius bonus (automatic explosion had smaller range than a manual detonation with the mod equiped)
2. Automatic explosion does not count as a heavy attack and does not recieve heavy attack damage/crit bonuses
3. Automatic explosion does not proc the forced elemental procs on explosion (slash on glaive prime, elec on xoris, toxin on cerata etc)
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally liking the overall Glaive changes. Nice!

On 2020-11-19 at 2:23 AM, [DE]Bear said:
  • Glaive throws can now be performed while sliding!
  • Throw melee inputs can be “queued up”, one after the other!
  • Glaives can now be thrown multiple times in a single jump!
  • Melee stance combos are now available in Glaive + Gun mode!
  • Glaive + Gun mode now utilizes melee auto blocking when not aiming or firing!

And the Glaive throw change!

On 2020-11-19 at 2:23 AM, [DE]Bear said:

“Hold throw” mechanics now apply in Equipped Melee mode!

I like how Hold Throw now works consistently in all modes! Finally!

  • Hold Melee key to throw Glaive
    • works in Equipped Melee, Equipped Primary, Equipped Secondary, and Glaive+Gun modes.
    • RIP Heavy Attack key to throw Glaive 🌷
  • And that it also applies to Wolf Sledge! (and to other Thrown Melee weapons, right?)
  • I also like the unreserved Alt Fire key as a detonator option.
    • But, why not just make it a default on Equipped Melee mode?
      For example,
      • while in Equipped Melee mode and while using a Thrown Melee weapon,
        Alt Fire key triggers Thrown Melee Detonation, like a "Melee weapon Alt Fire"
      • then, while in Glaive+Gun mode, Alt Fire key triggers the "Secondary weapon Alt Fire" only
      • in both modes, Heavy Attack key should trigger the Thrown Melee detonation too for consistency.
    • By making "Melee Alt Fire" a default, no additional clutter in the controls settings.
      • (Aside: Like the "Melee with Fire Button", which I personally use even before the melee changes,
        could have been just a default too in the new melee. One less setting clutter to worry about.
        E.g. While in Equipped Melee mode only, enable "Melee with Fire Button". In other modes, disable it by default.
      • "Melee Alt Fire" could also be an alternative mechanics to "jump, aim glide projectiles", "ground slam shockwaves", and "slide attack projectiles".
        E.g. Dark Split-Sword with two Stance Mod slots (but using only one stance for capacity), then press Melee Alt Fire to switch active stances on the fly!
  • On the other hand...

What I don't like about the Glaive changes are the still inconsistent parts

  • Glaive Detonation trigger or key bind and Glaive Detonation damage,
  • aside from Thrown Melee weapons' forced Hold Throw during melee combo button mashing.

(1) Glaive Detonation trigger or key bind

On 2020-11-19 at 2:23 AM, [DE]Bear said:

In “Glaive + Gun” mode, players must use the melee key to detonate the Glaive while in flight.

  • With only the Glaive in hand, the alt fire button is no longer reserved for your secondary weapon, which allows for added flexibility - press alt fire for a Heavy Attack detonation, or tap melee for a simple recall

Currently:

  • While not aiming/blocking (after throw)
    • press Heavy Attack key to detonate Thrown Melee
      • (while not aiming) works in Equipped Primary, and Equipped Secondary modes
      • (while not blocking) works in Equipped Melee mode
    • press Melee key to detonate Thrown Melee
      • works in Glaive+Gun mode.
    • press Melee key to recall Thrown Melee
      • works in all modes
  • While aiming/blocking weapon (after throw)
    • press Heavy Attack key to detonate Thrown Melee
      • (while aiming) does not work in Equipped Primary, and Equipped Secondary modes.
      • (while blocking) works in Equipped Melee mode
    • press Melee key to detonate Thrown Melee
      • (while aiming) works in Glaive+Gun mode.
  • (Note: there are also inconsistencies between holding aim/block before throwing, and holding aim/block after throwing. Only listed the "after throw" above.)

Why not simplify:

  • While aiming/blocking or not (before or after throw)
    • press Heavy Attack key
      • all modes (Equipped Melee, Equipped Primary, Equipped Secondary, Glaive+Gun)
        • detonate Thrown Melee (with Glaives, Wolf Sledge, etc. equipped)
        • "instant" Melee Heavy Attack (other Melee weapons equipped)
    • press Melee key
      • all modes: recall Thrown Melee (with Glaives, Wolf Sledge, etc. equipped)
    • press Alt Fire key
      • Equipped Melee: detonate Thrown Melee (a.k.a. "Melee Alt Fire" for other melee weapons if applicable)
      • Equipped Primary: trigger Primary Alt Fire
      • Equipped Secondary: trigger Secondary Alt Fire
      • Glavie+Gun: trigger Secondary Alt Fire only

(1) TLDR: While in flight, whether holding aim/block or not, detonate Thrown Melee weapons with just one key - Heavy Attack key - for all modes, and works with "Melee Alt Fire" as a default (no need to change any control setting).
(1) Aside: Once the "Thrown Melee detonation" is simplified, can the "instant Gunblade Melee Heavy Attack" on key press come sooner? 😬

(2) Glaive Detonation damage

On 2020-11-19 at 2:23 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Heavy Attack (aka Glaive detonation) will now do more damage, more consistently! 

Actually, I haven't tested this one yet but it says "consistently" there.
Since it's about Glaive detonation too, I have doubts with this one. So, thoughts TBD for this. 🤣

(2) Update: Glaive detonation damage is overall okay, more concerned with

  • Glaive Detonation trigger or key bind, and
  • Thrown Melee weapons' forced Hold Throw during melee combo button mashing.

 

P.S. I also like the built-in explosion on the Wolf Sledge since we can't use [Volatile Rebound] on it, saves a mod slot and preserving my build. 👍👍
Please keep the Wolf Sledge as is since it's a unique weapon, and just adjust the Glaives' detonation damage if necessary to stay on par with it. Pretty please? 🙏 But so far, both Glaives' (with [Volatile Rebound]) and Wolf Sledge's quick throw explosions deal about the same damage. I'm liking both.

 

Hope this feedback helps.

Cheers!

Edited by Mic.ph
+(1)asideGunbladeToMelee +dontLike[insert] +(1)altFireKeyDetails +(2)update +PS
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Love it so far!

I encountered a bug though with Power Throw. If you chain thrown attacks, at some point the glaive will orbit far away from you, doing nothing and refusing to be recalled for about 10-20 seconds.

 

Edit : Happens without Power Throw and with any combination of mods. Looks like the game doesn't appreciate spam throwing ^^

Edited by nonscience
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

All glaives I checked displayed 0% fall off in game. Am I misunderstanding something here, or are your notes completely wrong?

  I guess it is about bounce damage not heavy attack

 

I still want to see wolf sledge can use glaive mods including power throw, since its throwing is still kinda mediocre DPS

Edited by alseltas
Link to post
Share on other sites

@[DE]Bear @[DE]Adam @[DE]Megan @[DE]Rebecca Good morning everyone, please test glaives rn, they are unusable. Every attack ( E, E + W, E + block, spin attack) is triggering a throwing or power thorw, that for players that main glaives is ultimate annoying, its basicaly like i dont have a melee equiped tbh, hope ur guys can fix that with a quick hot fix, i main a phatocyst, please test it rn its unusable. TYVM, have a good work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Change is in the nature of this game and I want to approach changes open minded, but things like this are making it difficult.

Like I detailed in my previous feedback in the related dev workshop post, applying some of the very much so welcome features from dual wielding to the default stance is a good change, however, the same really cannot be said the other way around.

Melee animation lock persists and is further worsened by unintended charge attacks with high melee attack speeds.
Camera shake due to combo animations literally throw the crosshair off-target at times, I hope I don't need to explain why this is bad?
Lift attacks toss the enemy out of melee range, making me look like some idiot trying to catch a balloon while wearing mittens.
Effective attack speed feels slower and inconsistent, while animations and strike patters are more narrow. While I don't think that you "whipped out the nerf hammer", this is effectively reducing the Glaive's damage potential.
Thrown glaive heavy attacks, aka. the explosion, still feel gimmicky and like a waste of combo counter. Whether you like it or not, the fact that combo counter exists and the way it works with some of the melee mods just makes it objectively superior to anything the explosion could offer, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Please reconsider this. I know that you'd rather do anything than just "revert" to how things were prior to an update, but please explore options as to how to go from here.
I.e. restore classic stance behavior to dual wielding and apply said behavior to default stance as well. While Warframe's animation fidelity has always been its strong suit, the camera shake, especially when dual wielding, is really annoying. Further, as detailed above, it is objectively worse than the classic moveset in terms of consistency and effective damage output.
Please consider reworking or outright removing lift attacks, they are antithetical to the entire flow of combat. When you have a system that players are actively working to avoid, that is saying a lot about that system in question.

It feels like the dev workshop was more of an "announcement", like "this is coming soon", rather than proposing changes and asking for feedback, in fact, it feels like feedback given prior to this implementation has either fallen on deaf ears or was completely disregarded.

I can only speak for myself, but at this point, I fear that glaives - or at least dual-wielding - have in some way been "taken from me".
This may seem like an overdramatic exaggeration to some and maybe they're right, but that's how where these kind of changes make me feel about the game, like it's taking things that I enjoy away for no apparent reason.
Changes like forced weapon swap on melee attack without allowing players to opt-out of that system.
Changes like forced finisher rebind to "on interact" (frequently causing issues with security consoles, rampart turrets or nearby hostages when trying to execute a finisher), while gutting finisher trigger radius at the same time without allowing players to bind it to "on melee" again.
Changes to melee stances, animation weight and the introduction of lift attacks making many weapon stances feel clunky and unwieldy.
And finally, changes like those introduced with "glaive revisited", bringing the melee features I was purposely trying to avoid into dual-wielding.
Playing under these circumstances is frustrating and acts as "fuel" to burnout and it's even more frustrating to feel like there is little point to providing feedback on matters like this.

I ask you once again, to please reconsider these changes.

Edited by Darken217
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

keep the detonation of the glaive always to the heavy attack button (middle mouse by default)

 

it's confusing, to have to use melee to heavy attack in gun + glaive, and go back to middle mouse when you're in glaive only

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, I did some testing and there are a couple of issues I see. 

Bug: 

Quote

With only the Glaive in hand, the alt fire button is no longer reserved for your secondary weapon, which allows for added flexibility - press alt fire for a Heavy Attack detonation, or tap melee for a simple recall

Alt-fire is not detonating the glaive. I have tried multiple rebindings, including MMB (with heavy attack set to something other than MMB). Only heavy attack detonates the glaive in this mode.

Feedback: 

Quote

In “Glaive + Gun” mode, players must use the melee key to detonate the Glaive while in flight. 

Having to hold "E" to throw it is fine, but having to then release "E" and tap "E" to detonate is not fluid.
It should be "E" to throw, then "Heavy Attack" to detonate just like when only the Glaive is in hand. 
Alternately, "Heavy Attack to throw and "E" to detonate. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably been said before but it's a bit strange having tap-melee after a throw behave differently when in "Glaive + Gun" or not. That is, when dual wielding, pressing melee during a throw explodes the glaive, whereas it only recalls it in other situations. This wasn't too bad before, since dual wielding made the glaive into almost a different weapon altogether. But now that dual wielding is borderline identical to regular melee, it's pretty easy to mix up the two behaviours and end up blowing a combo counter by accident.

Any way we can make that consistent across the Glaive + Gun and Glaive Only "stances"?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personal opinions on the changes:

Forewarning: I personally had built up quite a bit of muscle memory using slide + heavy attack to throw glaives while midair and/or sliding. Now I am having to rapidly re-learn a new control layout, and the learning process is frustrating. I hope to not taint my feedback with these frustrations.

 

The Glaive + Gun mode changes have made the difference in features between the two modes less apparent, so I am glad the changes were made. But I continue to not use the mode, as it is simply not a feature I get much use out of: when I use melee, I use dedicated-melee-mode.

  • Glaive "Hold-Throw" mechanics, and the associated "Charged-Throw" mechanics, now that they are added to equipped melee mode, are at the forefront of these equalizing changes. Using a Glaive without a gun no longer locks melee-dedicated players like myself out of higher-damage versions of the same weapon throw. So while I am still questioning the necessity of having a distinction between Charged and regular throws, I am at least now able to use them.

I have noticed that auto-block no longer triggering forced-aim-glides. Whether this is a new change, or is merely the first time I've noticed it, I am appreciative of the change, and it removes one of the major downsides of the Glaive + Gun mode changes.

 

Some stat clarification on the New Explosion mods would be appreciated, even if only to be found on the wiki.

 

The rest of the changes are harmless QoL changes, that are much appreciated.

 

Though for the Stat rebalancing, I'll admit that I was hopeful that one of the glaives would be rebalanced to be a more Physical-damage oriented, "All-Damage, No-Status" kind of Glaive. For as long as there remains a significant number of enemies without the "Lich Treatment", I feel odd using Glaives, since every single one seems to rely heavily on status effects (Or maybe I'm just Modding my Glaives wrong).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to point out that while it may be awkward on mouse and keyboard, the detonation method in Glaive + Gun mode works great with a controller. Maybe they could add a separate default keybind to it for mouse and keyboard.

Edited by Caidezes
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-11-20 at 9:00 AM, TheSlickSpeeder said:

Orvius does self damage on it's explosion, might wanna remove that

Not Orvius. Volatile Quick Return (and Rebound) on Orvius!

 

Ok, now the feedback. The glaives feel amazing now! Thank you. At first I thought the changes would be meh, but after testing it out, they are really great.

However, I have one single problem with glaives, that use legacy mechanics: The throw itself.

  1. Throwing a Glaive used to be considered a Heavy Attack before Melee Rework. For this reason, Heavy Attack Wind Up Speed (from Killing Blow and Amalgam Organ Shatter) affects throwing animation. Please change the throwing animation to be affected by Attack Speed mods instead!
  2. Having too much Heavy Attack Wind Up Speed (+120%) glitches the input queue. If you throw it instantly and hold the melee input to queue, the Warframe does nothing.

Additionally, since Wolf Sledge got the hold throw mechanic, can Cobra & Crane, Sigma & Octantis and Exodia Contagion have the same treatment? They are also "ranged melee attacks", so I think the hold to throw is intuitive and really welcomed here.

A big thanks for the changes!

Edited by Lakyus
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

You can only trigger glaive detonation when you're dual wielding a glaive + weapon. Detonations don't work if you are ONLY using the glaive. So primary weapon + quick melee glaive detonation doesn't work. Please fix. 

Note: I've only tested this in the simulacrum. 

Edited by arkery
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, arkery said:

You can only trigger glaive detonation when you're dual wielding a glaive + weapon. Detonations don't work if you are ONLY using the glaive. So primary weapon + quick melee glaive detonation doesn't work. Please fix. 

Note: I've only tested this in the simulacrum. 

I can detonate them just fine, even when overlapping heavy attack with alt fire (since I changed the keybindings). Are you using the heavy attack button to detonate?

Link to post
Share on other sites
hace 3 horas, Lakyus dijo:

Not Orvius. Volatile Quick Return (and Rebound) on Orvius!

Yes, it is the Orvius. I tried it multiple times, detonating Orvius while in range of the explosion does self damage. And Volatile Quick Return is basically a oneshot to you if you happen to be near the enemies. Its annoying. Also, please have it detonate with heavy melee keybind and recall with tapping E. I enjoyed most of the changes to glaives, the input buffering feels neat, but if you want to keep combo and use a secondary you can't input buffer, else the glaive will detonate and byebye combo. Glaives do feel better overall, but they need some fixes. Specially the Orvius self damage (Idk if other glaives do self damage).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great changes :)

I just have a Xoris ready, as I keep quest stuff, but I will definetly build me a bouncing Cerata and a power throw Glaive Prime and might replace big boom Xoris by Falcor

 

Killing Blow does add to the heavy attack‘s explosion damage (edit:manual detonating), but it‘s not shown in Arsenal. It might be unintended for the wind-up speed as well affecting throwing charge speed, but it seems to me being a good balance

Edited by BesucherPrime
Clarification on heavy attack (manual detonation)
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-11-20 at 1:18 PM, Traumtulpe said:

All glaives I checked displayed 0% fall off in game. Am I misunderstanding something here, or are your notes completely wrong?

That is for the bounce mods. Detonating the glaive yourself has no falloff.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-11-20 at 2:55 AM, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

DE defaults suck, cause they don't know how to Controller, they're PC people

I don't know that I'd agree with this.  When WF launched in 2013, 3 of the 4 systems the game released on were console.  They've had to support controllers since day one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...