RIP Khora

[GhostRidER162]

Just now, (PSN)HynvictSanngRa said:

Either the "community" is overreacting like hell or the devs really screwed up if such a small change turned one of the best DPS frames into "useless" (not like we have gotten the changes yet, so can't really tell).

Still as I have seen on a video above, the LOS-check really needs some tweaking, or perhaps the nerf could have touched other things, like static / maximum range, energy cost, mods that apply to the damage calculation... It does look like they wanted maximum effect with minimum effort.

Welp tested in simulacrum and guess what it feels awful to use. I don't understand why would you still vouch for nerfing khora when they got rid of SE farming? Thats the prime reason for her nerf which is gone.

[(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg]

That videos seems painful :D. I might try completing steel path before it comes to ps4 and Khora can't hit stuff :D.

I know she was powerul but that's a weird way to nerf a frame :D. Let's make it less usable/working properly. Well I am newish so I can witness the famous DE nerf policies onlive :P.

[(PSN)GOTWIC]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Same question to you as the other. Running frost for 3-4 hours, pressing 2 every 4 seconds consistently. You know how I know if I didn't get it right? We lose the mission instantly. So should ai be banned for givng myself RSI pressing 2?

The concept of AFK farming is basically interacting with the game while you are doing something else, ie sleeping, taking a walk, taking a S#&$, playing another game etc

[-CdG-Zilchy]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)GOTWIC said:

Inaros isn't a good frame to use in SP for that reason. If you go for pure tanky, you'd want rhino

You mean Revenant. In terms of frames that can take hits and survive, Mesmer skin is the strongest. This is disregarding invisibility as a survival mechanic, obviously several frames can do that and be invulnerable. Rhino with Iron skin loading to millions of EHP is indeed strong but still not as good revenant pressing 2 to ignore all damage.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)GOTWIC said:

The concept of AFK farming is basically interacting with the game while you are doing something else, ie sleeping, taking a walk, taking a S#&$, playing another game etc

Well according to ingame it's standing still, using abilities doesn't matter you will still get flagged. That's why successful macros were using pressing 5 occasionally to reset afk timer.

[Cr34tor0fGODz]

This is one of the most disgusting nerf DE has done so far. They have already nerfed Khora by removing steel essence farm from eximus, then they add another nerf on whipclaw which makes Khora irrelevant. I guess we should just use Nekros. 

[Vernoc]

not a big change. she´s as powerfull as she was. you just have to aim now a bit. with the right build (e.g with octavia ability) you don´t feel any differece

[(PSN)camwyn-xenos]

All i can say is this is the normal DE thing of to many cooks and no head chef. They nerf/changed the SE farming, but then also nerfed the frames ability. What players asked for was her ability to nuke rooms removed and also not hit through walls etc. Also for all statsticks to be removed so frames were properly balanced, not pushed to being op by hidden stats as this affects other frames which are being called op because of ability and nerfed. 

De already had it in for khora just look at the scarlet spear fiasco over vinari healing and did anyone note she wasn't that highly used during scarlet spear.

[(PSN)GOTWIC]

7 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Well according to ingame it's standing still, using abilities doesn't matter you will still get flagged. That's why successful macros were using pressing 5 occasionally to reset afk timer.

I have 0 experience with macros cause I never used them, and I'm on console. But macros and actually playing have some similarities that can confuse the game (ie standing in one place on hydron with sary spamming your 4 every so often. So as long as you move around, its fine.

But the point that its not hard to detect macros unless the macro you are using has random delays between presses

[Lolacrayola]

Whipclaw is functionally an exalted quick melee for Khora. There are quite a few hybrid melee weapons in the game that are capable of million+ dps, even if they can't do Whipclaw's burst damage. They can pull ahead over time with status procs but in the case of Khora, you need to sacrifice your melee weapon so it becomes a container for mods that apply to Whipclaw.

The main difference is that Whipclaw receives a damage multiplier from ability strength% and bonus reach from ability range%. It also has an explosion at the point of impact whose radius increases with range%. This is what allows you to hit things through walls, especially enemies trapped in strangledome, since if you kill 1 enemy in strangledome, all other enemies trapped in the dome will take 50% of that damage.

Accumulating Whipclaw provides a damage bonus which is additive with strength% and this is what allows Khora to go negative strength% while modding at effectively no cost.

I do think Whipclaw's burst damage is overtuned but if we identify the damage as a problem, you don't solve it by imposing line of sight restriction making Whipclaw's hit detection less reliable. It was never reliable to begin with. This is because collision boxes are not always 1:1 representations of the size and shape of visible objects in the game world. 

Instead you look at where Khora's damage is coming from. Lets look at the damage multiplier from ability strength%. You could make Accumulating Whipclaw's damage bonus multiplicative instead of additive with strength and tweak the damage bonus numbers. Now you can no longer go negative ability strength% for free. Alternatively, you could reclassify Accumulating Whipclaw's damage bonus as melee damage% and tweak the numbers from there. However, with the augment numbers as is, this would be a very big nerf. Another thing you could do is reduce the effect of range% on the explosion radius. The explosion would still be able to trigger a dome chain reaction through walls, but dome placement has to be more carefully considered

I get it if people think Khora's burst damage is out of line, but you have to identify and implement the appropriate solution. This solution makes no sense. All you end up with is a frame that is annoying to use, so nobody uses it.

Look at Octavia for example. One of the few frames in the game capable of true scaling damage with enemy level. Insane self/ally buffing and perma stealth. You would think that everyone and their dog would be playing Octavia right? Nope. Why? Because she is boring to play and you don't have a tangible sense of doing stuff and things dying when you press buttons.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, (PSN)GOTWIC said:

I have 0 experience with macros cause I never used them, and I'm on console. But macros and actually playing have some similarities that can confuse the game (ie standing in one place on hydron with sary spamming your 4 every so often. So as long as you move around, its fine.

But the point that its not hard to detect macros unless the macro you are using has random delays between presses

I don't use them either but I know people who do, so I have an inkling in to how they work. I'm an older gamer, very old skool, I don't use such crutches hehe. And those delays you speak of are very easy to add to a macro setup.

[The-Ex-Wife]

29 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I used to run Frost for defense mission with my clan, running missions about 3-4 hours long. My task? Pressing 2 every 4 seconds manually. Should I be banned? Clearly that's a macro right and not me giving myself RSI pressing 1 button...

Depends, are you shooting and proccing status or anything? 

If not, then yes, you should be banned since that it against warframes guidelines of macros being used for afk gameplay. Regardless if your team mates are killing everything. You're using a macro to play your role in that game while you are doing nothing else. Yes in the guidelines they provided for macro use, you should be banned.

#edit, Just because its a mind numbing task doesn't mean allowing a macro to play the 3-4 hours makes it less bannable. DE is pretty lax with their guidelines. The only thing they really try emphasize is. Having a macro play the game for you is a no no. Shortcuts and streamlines like slide melee, or exodia contagion proccing, even bullet jumping and such. They don't have issues with as you are still playing the game actively. Just making little quality of life changes.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It really wasn't a bad change. It could've been worse. Typical over reaction.

[nslay]

Yes yes, please continue to think Khora is dead! Let the popularity die!

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

43 minutes ago, PurrrningBoop said:

10k hp Inaros,....oneshot? In SP?

Players are that bad....it's believable. A youtuber was 1-shot by a specter.

[Loza03]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)GOTWIC said:

Khora was nerfed for SE farming. Most people (most) were on general agreement that SE farms needed a nerf. But khora nerf wasn't needed

People are still getting way too angry about stuff like that at the end of the day.

 

Besides, if I understand correctly, it was ignoring Line of Sight requirements? Honestly, that itself shouldn't be allowed. LoS is a pretty basic restriction in most cases after all, so having a high-damage AoE ability not have one isn't acceptable. High damage and AoE are already valuable perks. That's not to say any bugs related to this change shouldn't be fixed (i.e. things being too finnicky or damage being inconsistent).

 

By which I mean, Equinox next, please. Maim can do an unlimited amount of Damage, in AoE, without LoS requirements and gets some passive damage on top of that. And it can also heal by switching to Mend.

[(PSN)Kaiser_Rebellion]

Believe or not clowns on this forum wanted her nerf for a while because they suck at eso or regular SO. 

[Angwah]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Players are that bad....it's believable. A youtuber was 1-shot by a specter.

No doubt, but there is some serious hyperbole here. You need to go 2h+ in an endurance run before Inaros gets into trouble which is a far cry from 'Inaros gets one-shotted in SP'. Only a small portion of the player-base will ever encounter lvl 500+ enemies, and he does just fine against everything else.

[HelNite]

4 hours ago, Cerikus said:

when you put that much into any warframe it becomes strong

Damage wise yes in fact most exalted weapons have similar single target damage output but, what makes the exalted weapons good/bad in essence are their mechanics and AoE

From my personal knowledge this is the current state of all warframes in regards to their exalted weapons:

Excalibur, Valkyr, Atlas and Wukong: Cry in corner
Khora: Joins them
Barukk: Gives 0 fks
Mesa: "lol, you guys need stat sticks?"

...
 

Spoiler

Hildryn ,Ash and Garuda: "We...also have exalted weapons...remember?"

 

[Angwah]

3 minutes ago, HelNite said:

Hildryn ,Ash and Garuda: "We...also have exalted weapons...remember?"

Titania raises her hand too...

[HelNite]

1 minute ago, Angwah said:

Titania raises her hand too...

she gets a free pass bcs archwing mods

[-CdG-Zilchy]

34 minutes ago, The-Ex-Wife said:

Depends, are you shooting and proccing status or anything? 

If not, then yes, you should be banned since that it against warframes guidelines of macros being used for afk gameplay. Regardless if your team mates are killing everything. You're using a macro to play your role in that game while you are doing nothing else. Yes in the guidelines they provided for macro use, you should be banned.

#edit, Just because its a mind numbing task doesn't mean allowing a macro to play the 3-4 hours makes it less bannable. DE is pretty lax with their guidelines. The only thing they really try emphasize is. Having a macro play the game for you is a no no. Shortcuts and streamlines like slide melee, or exodia contagion proccing, even bullet jumping and such. They don't have issues with as you are still playing the game actively. Just making little quality of life changes.

About the only thing I was shooting was my Miter occasionally to pop nully bubbles. My role was to use the 4 second invulnerability of Frost globe to keep the objective from being 1 shot by enemies of level 9999 and to cast another globe every 4 seconds. But that's just it, I'm not using a macro, I'm pressing the button with my finger every 4 seconds, so how do you determine I'm not using a macro?

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

1 minute ago, HelNite said:

she gets a free pass bcs archwing mods

What

[(PSN)camwyn-xenos]

All i can say is this is the normal DE thing of to many cooks and no head chef. They nerf/changed the SE farming, but then also nerfed the frames ability. What players asked for was her ability to nuke rooms removed and also not hit through walls etc. Also for all statsticks to be removed so frames were properly balanced, not pushed to being op by hidden stats as this affects other frames which are being called op because of ability and nerfed. 

Take away your normal melee and whipclaw is useless no damage i just tryed it to see what difference a melee weapon adds, DE should just remove statssticks from all frame abilities and then buff the ability properly.

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

6 minutes ago, GhostRidER162 said:

Welp tested in simulacrum and guess what it feels awful to use. I don't understand why would you still vouch for nerfing khora when they got rid of SE farming? Thats the prime reason for her nerf which is gone.

Well, I just don't find it a big nerf. She still has a hard hitter, but now requires more of precision, I don't think this is overboard (and it's pretty much the golden rule for things that hit hard, in AOE, are spammable, and on top cheap to use). And if the nerf had gone to something like Zephyr or Banshee I would understand, but I don't think this type of nerf to khora will make anyone see her as less than what she is now, aside from the people that always want the 100% cheesiest most powerful everything.

Also I won't say I know how DE's business works, but I think they mostly care about two things: players getting things / progressing slow, and players killing things slow (specially if they are important / drop something important), because this most of the time implies the first thing. SE farm got removed, but in time some other SE 2.0 will be released, and if that new resource is obtained by killing things people will still use khora religiously to get it fast, so I guess they have just tried to get rid of that possibility.

Still as I said, what I don't find correct is to impose a defective system.