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5 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

it's more like they never really test all the possibilities their own creation gives the player for themself and so often end up with 'unforesen consequences' a bit latter that they can't ignore for long before they need to change something (though with steel path, they took indeed much too long of considering a different way). likely they rather let us snoop out all the 'problematic' ways one could play this game - but then, they shouldn't punish those who ovredid it (IF indeed the claims of many player are true, which i'm not convinced, really).

the change to this system, i find quite ok... for now... and the prices are too imo. it still is much about doing the missions in a more specific way though - build wise or weapon wise (or both ^^)

Because it's impossible for any person to "teast all the possibilities", do you realize what are you saying? It's like "knowing all the posibilities" when you take a walk outside. A lot of stuff can happen. With games it's the same, you are giving a lot of information intoa  system and that information overlaps witha  lot of other information outside you that also interacts with you and with the system. No one, no dev, no human can "test all the possibilities", imply the contrary is talking about, I don't know, an omniscient being.

That doesn't mean they don't stress stuff that doesn't requiere "test all the possibilities" to be fixed, but honestly, this S#&$ about wanting a perfect game just get too crazy sometimes. 

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From perspective of my clan and friends i must say, like 99% of people i ask about steel essence change, well they like. Everyone got life, and most people dont have time and even some internet conection to do endless missions for over 2 hours. And now they can log in, spend 15-20 minutes and get some steel essence. I can understand players that are angry over this change but true is, that DE need money from casual players that spend real life money to speed up progress in warframe, buy skins or boosters. So they are making changes to please that group of players. This is how it was, it is and will be.

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22 hours ago, S0NGA said:

 

I dont know, why when someone can understand some strategy and apply it in gameplay, it is considered wrong or it is camper or something else!!!
In this case I realized that the more I kill, the more enemies will appear to be killed as well and consequently, the greater the number of mobs that drop what I want...
It seems obvious to me and I will make it happen...
and adding that to the fact that I like to stay there for a long time, killing everything that moves (and this is a lot of fun, guys), I will reach my goal.

I will repeat for you, what I said here before:

"I agree with your point of view!
I think your comment on quantities is pertinent and I believe that there will be some adjustment soon...
we were doing 1h/1h30 mission, which gave us 120 to 180 essences (maybe, even more with the help of kavat).
maybe, previously the value was very high, but now, it is very low."

 

This sounds like DE again, did something wrong (maybe bug), in that place... and maybe that really happened!!

I will say something obvious, that I realized right at the beginning:
If the idea is to kill many eximus mobs, I will do it in infested, because there, they have a lot...
however, that is not what happened!!! (another kind of bug?! I dont know!!)

In survivals, the amount was smaller and could be the same now, with the same process that was previously and not with acolites.
I agree with following; if there was something wrong with ODiN, just fix the error!!!

 

please, I'd like that U just understand, that this is just my opinion...
I am not the owner of the truth and I am not saying that it should really be like that, ok!

this is a forum exactly so we can reconcile ideas and make the most of the game, preferably for everyone!  ;)

(let me know if something was not clear to you, unfortunately my english is not very accurate)

But is was camping in Odin. Just as you pretty much camp any other node if you do it over and over every single time.

And they did fix the Odin "error" with the change while also buffing everything else except extreme endless. You also say you got 120 to 180 essence in 1h/1h30, which leads me to believe that you did Odin, since no other mode came close to it in that amount of time. Other places didnt come close to Odin until you ran really long due to the 45 minute or so ramp up that often in itself resulted in zero essence.

And your 120/180 is also likely based on a buffed run since a 40ish minute Odin would net around 70 essence.

You may also base it on Ophelia mob exploiting pre-fix.

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15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But is was camping in Odin. Just as you pretty much camp any other node if you do it over and over every single time.

And they did fix the Odin "error" with the change while also buffing everything else except extreme endless. You also say you got 120 to 180 essence in 1h/1h30, which leads me to believe that you did Odin, since no other mode came close to it in that amount of time. Other places didnt come close to Odin until you ran really long due to the 45 minute or so ramp up that often in itself resulted in zero essence.

And your 120/180 is also likely based on a buffed run since a 40ish minute Odin would net around 70 essence.

You may also base it on Ophelia mob exploiting pre-fix.

I only did 1 run of Odin to see what it was all about but I got 280 while 2 of my team mates got 340. That was a 90 minute run so I think your numbers are actually conservative compared to just how much that node could give you. That was 3 experienced players actively working together for higher gains and a newbie we plucked from our Alliance chat so that may have a bit to do with it.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I only did 1 run of Odin to see what it was all about but I got 280 while 2 of my team mates got 340. That was a 90 minute run so I think your numbers are actually conservative compared to just how much that node could give you.

Then his has probably been unboosted, since I assume your result was with a booster? I didnt do much Odin myself either, the runs I did were solo, so the essence for a group may have been far higher since less travel is needed for the mobs before dying so more spawns per round.

No wonder they wanted to regulate it.

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12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then his has probably been unboosted, since I assume your result was with a booster? I didnt do much Odin myself either, the runs I did were solo, so the essence for a group may have been far higher since less travel is needed for the mobs before dying so more spawns per round.

No wonder they wanted to regulate it.

I used a booster and my smeeta kavat which wasn't nice to me and didn't deserve any kitty treats after. But we also used me on a PD Speedva maximising DPS for 2 Khoras whipping away constantly. And yeh you're right, the drop rates were downright outrageous.

The fun fact for me I took away is why people risked having a 1% lead to win by. Once you get 1% ahead, it actually doesn't matter if they're 1 or 10% behind provided you don't capture a 3rd point and gain any faster. Regardless of their total you're still going to reach 100% in the same amount of time so you're just risking it for no reason lol.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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2 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I used a booster and my smeeta kavat which wasn't nice to me and didn't deserve any kitty treats after. But we also used me on a PD Speedva maximising DPS for 2 Khoras whipping away constantly. And yeh you're right, the drop rates were downright outrageous.

The fun fact for me I took away is why people risked having a 1% lead to win by. Once you get 1% ahead, it actually doesn't matter if they're 1 or 10% behind provided you don't capture a 3rd point and gain any faster. Regardless of their total you're still going to reach 100% in the same amount of time so you're just risking it for no reason lol.

My kitty has also been bad, she got replaced by my twisted little Panzer fox Rommel. In all honestly, charm reducing my crit for long periods of time is more the reason why she got replaced, should rename the ability to curse.

And same here, no idea why they want a 1% lead when 10% does the same job.

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15 hours ago, vanaukas said:

Because it's impossible for any person to "teast all the possibilities", do you realize what are you saying? It's like "knowing all the posibilities" when you take a walk outside.

now that's a bad comparison... and i do know what i'm talking about when it comes to software development, especially the the testing phase of it. no one knows the going-ons of a program better than the people who wrote it and they can see correlations of elements that the usual user can not or only partial see/reason/understand (even if they reverse engineer the program and look at the assembler code, seeing the 'behaviour' of processor commands). ofc, you're right that there are always things beyond what a developer can test for - and this is especially the case for "wintel-computer" where the amount of combinations of hard&software is exorbitant (in comparison to old days of mac's, where there where only a limited amount of such... those days are gone too since apple now also 'allows' far more hardware components and the amount of available software for macs is steadily rising too). those are the 'things' they can't really test a lot for - the 'logical' problems on the other hand are something they can test or even foreseen beforehand.

true, a program as complex as warframe goes somewhat in the direction of an operating system which is also a sum of many parts thoug an OS is also written by many developers from often different companies (yes, even windows and mac are not using only their own 'part' for their OS). with warframe there is only a handful or two '3rd-party' software in action, which makes that angle a bit more easier to test for - still, those are parts that can be tricky (e.g. driver for the graphic cards, which in turn are many in use of the warframe players - also partly because the game is around for so long already and with little changes in its specs needed).

in no way you can compare software development with quantum physics "chaos theory" which did with your statement - those are two different pair of shoes... at least for while yet and until we get quantum computing which requires specific code that longer uses the 'old' binary way of calculation... until then the world of code is still overseeable to a certain amount.

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41 minutes ago, fr4gb4ll said:

now that's a bad comparison... and i do know what i'm talking about when it comes to software development, especially the the testing phase of it. no one knows the going-ons of a program better than the people who wrote it and they can see correlations of elements that the usual user can not or only partial see/reason/understand (even if they reverse engineer the program and look at the assembler code, seeing the 'behaviour' of processor commands). ofc, you're right that there are always things beyond what a developer can test for - and this is especially the case for "wintel-computer" where the amount of combinations of hard&software is exorbitant (in comparison to old days of mac's, where there where only a limited amount of such... those days are gone too since apple now also 'allows' far more hardware components and the amount of available software for macs is steadily rising too). those are the 'things' they can't really test a lot for - the 'logical' problems on the other hand are something they can test or even foreseen beforehand.

true, a program as complex as warframe goes somewhat in the direction of an operating system which is also a sum of many parts thoug an OS is also written by many developers from often different companies (yes, even windows and mac are not using only their own 'part' for their OS). with warframe there is only a handful or two '3rd-party' software in action, which makes that angle a bit more easier to test for - still, those are parts that can be tricky (e.g. driver for the graphic cards, which in turn are many in use of the warframe players - also partly because the game is around for so long already and with little changes in its specs needed).

in no way you can compare software development with quantum physics "chaos theory" which did with your statement - those are two different pair of shoes... at least for while yet and until we get quantum computing which requires specific code that longer uses the 'old' binary way of calculation... until then the world of code is still overseeable to a certain amount.

Until you start to have things like "if a player disconnects their joystick when he just did a bullet jump while a enemy is just shooting a rocket to him, that causes a script error".

That kind of stuff is impossible to test without having a large force of QA... (Like,, the QA most consoles use is 72 h of your game running non stop and being literally DESTROYED by some soutern asain dude for hours until another dude takes his place and so on). We are that force of QA right now. Now, I can't defend bad pratices when it comes to QA (like when I said, they can oversee some things but not "all the possibilities" as you  nmay think. IDK your sw background, but I don't trust in someone that simplify that much QA testing. 

Of course no one knows better than a programmer what is behind their code, but I've worked on large projects and your statement it's untrue. No human can know everything on how their code is going to behave under all the conditions as you said, unless it's a too small project. If that wasn't the case, hotfixes and continuous updates won't exist, they exist solely for the purpose to fix stuff that can do harm to your user system or affect the stability of your program. We iterate, we patch, we fix, because we don't have the means to "know all the possibilities" when we compile. Even in that, you'll get a lot of syntax errors, even if no one knows your code better than you... Beause we are humans, we aren't perfect, we make mistakes. We don't "know all the possibilities" in our future or on the future of our creations.

Hell, hte fact we are talking about QA makes it incredibly obvious.

TL;DR: Knowing the (all of most of the) code =/= Knowing all the possibilities of how that code is going to behave in open ended situation.

Ps: I wan't to add something: Not evena  wuantum algoewithm running ina  quantum computer can know "all the possibilities", this statement is a non sense and I can't understand why you could defend something like that, honestly.

You can take this dude words, I'm sure he understand better than us :)! https://research.unsw.edu.au/people/scientia-professor-andrea-morello
 

 

Edited by vanaukas
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22 hours ago, vanaukas said:

Until you start to have things like "if a player disconnects their joystick when he just did a bullet jump while a enemy is just shooting a rocket to him, that causes a script error".

no, that's if the coder forgot the usual errorhandling - and those exception procedures should be default tests before anything else... also i doubt that removing a device in a certain situation (and this one here very hard to do without a debugger inbetween disconecting the device just at the right microsecond so that a missing signal could cause anything... and again, there are those exception handles, catching even such freak accidents).

sure, there is often a far bigger testing group for a program than there is the group who develop the software, but it's by far not so execessive, even for a new windows OS, that you can call it impossible to do - especially if it's program that will generate money for the devs... that said, it's a different story for single developer, freeware and open source even if the would generate any revenue. most of the time the testing group for those are the end-user, which somewhat brings us back to warframe, even though it isn't neither of those. ofc, every company is free to do whatever they think ok with their product (as long as standing law are abided) and it seems DE is doing their thing more or less right or else they woulnd't be in business for as long as they are.

personally, don't find anything wrong with them using the players as their main source of testing either - though i wished they would at least test some of the more logical parts of their released contend, not those that causes crashes or let scrips go hairwire but those who turned out to be problematic (and often foreseeable so) to the balance and gameplay... as some examples i would name relics (specifically the grouping of things in the relics and the consequent chaos in the naming of the relics... i wrote this somewhere here in some different, long-ago post already soon after we got the relic-system), maiming strike and what it done to the melee fighting, the recent changes to the elemental damages and an assortment of frame abilities that lead to... well, lets say 'overuse' in the gameplay and had (not always) often been 'changed' soon after such frame release.

all those are things they could have avoided if they had thought a bit longer about what their new contend will generate in the game - afterall, with so many years of experience, they should 'know' their playerbase to some extend ^^)

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as someone who is casual AF, but have a bunch of frames that are geared enough to smash steel path missions, I have no problem with steel essence the way it is..

I don't think it's meant to be something you play for HOURS on end to stockpile materials.. I know I don't have that kind of patience. but rather something that you just work towards over time. rather than just a grind for nothing.

to be fair.. I don't really see anything even that good on the steel essence vendor? other than the emphemera's and I guess the umbra forma.. I don't understand people need to STOCKPILE essence.. makes no sense to me.

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3 hours ago, fr4gb4ll said:

no, that's if the coder forgot the usual errorhandling - and those exception procedures should be default tests before anything else... also i doubt that removing a device in a certain situation (and this one here very hard to do without a debugger inbetween disconecting the device just at the right microsecond so that a missing signal could cause anything... and again, there are those exception handles, catching even such freak accidents).

sure, there is often a far bigger testing group for a program than there is the group who develop the software, but it's by far not so execessive, even for a new windows OS, that you can call it impossible to do - especially if it's program that will generate money for the devs... that said, it's a different story for single developer, freeware and open source even if the would generate any revenue. most of the time the testing group for those are the end-user, which somewhat brings us back to warframe, even though it isn't neither of those. ofc, every company is free to do whatever they think ok with their product (as long as standing law are abided) and it seems DE is doing their thing more or less right or else they woulnd't be in business for as long as they are.

personally, don't find anything wrong with them using the players as their main source of testing either - though i wished they would at least test some of the more logical parts of their released contend, not those that causes crashes or let scrips go hairwire but those who turned out to be problematic (and often foreseeable so) to the balance and gameplay... as some examples i would name relics (specifically the grouping of things in the relics and the consequent chaos in the naming of the relics... i wrote this somewhere here in some different, long-ago post already soon after we got the relic-system), maiming strike and what it done to the melee fighting, the recent changes to the elemental damages and an assortment of frame abilities that lead to... well, lets say 'overuse' in the gameplay and had (not always) often been 'changed' soon after such frame release.

all those are things they could have avoided if they had thought a bit longer about what their new contend will generate in the game - afterall, with so many years of experience, they should 'know' their playerbase to some extend ^^)

The example I give about disconnecting the joypad is literally one of the criteria for certifications on consoles. Certs ask for that kind of thing, it's crazy. 

I'm gonna said it again, while I say "you can't test all the possibilities", I also said that doesn't  mean they "can't see some of them", that would be lying. Dunno if I gave this example already, but Limbo on SS is one of tjose examples, something that avoided their attention somehow qhile we all knew what was about to happem after the first couple of missions. same with Khora and SE farm.

tl;dr: The impossibility to test every possible interaction =/= Better QA. They need better QA, but lets stay on Earth about it...

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54 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

The example I give about disconnecting the joypad is literally one of the criteria for certifications on consoles. Certs ask for that kind of thing, it's crazy. 

I'm gonna said it again, while I say "you can't test all the possibilities", I also said that doesn't  mean they "can't see some of them", that would be lying. Dunno if I gave this example already, but Limbo on SS is one of tjose examples, something that avoided their attention somehow qhile we all knew what was about to happem after the first couple of missions. same with Khora and SE farm.

tl;dr: The impossibility to test every possible interaction =/= Better QA. They need better QA, but lets stay on Earth about it...

agree. but the limbo on SS and the khora SE farming sure were foreseeable in my book ^^)

one example that was 'unexpected' (or still is, idk if the 'fixed' that) is the result of the shield-gating and any kind of energy regen on hildryn... i never thought of using energy siphon  as aura for her or using using zenurik or arcane with that effect. idk if someone was just curious what those might do to her or if was an accidental use, but it sure was a suprising result... those are the kind that likely only a big userbase will find out (or very dedicated devs ^^)

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3 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

sp was never a challenge, it was challenge to not fall asleep ffs

I love the new system, because I don't have to spend boring hours in a mission.I can get the missions done in 10-20 min and I'm off to do something more interesting.

Well, the range of players who have access to SP is wide:

-  Just completed the star map, with a very incomplete library of mods, weapons and frames. Few to no forma's applied. Still struggling with gaining enough endo to rank up the mods they have as they also just unlocked arbitrations.

- Vets who have everything, including a clue.

This results in an equally wide range of how they experience the game mode, from bullet sponges who need multiple clips to put down, dying the instant they step into an aoe patch and timing out on certain bosses and on the other extreme only noticing you still have the Steel Path toggle on when something happens like SE or a Riven Sliver dropping, or I guess these days an acolyte spawning.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that depending where you are in your progression, SP can definitely be a challenge, forcing you to tighten your builds and pay attention again.

Edited by Angwah
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16 hours ago, vanaukas said:

The example I give about disconnecting the joypad is literally one of the criteria for certifications on consoles. Certs ask for that kind of thing, it's crazy. 

...but Limbo on SS is one of tjose examples, something that avoided their attention somehow while we all knew what was about to happen...

are points like this, that I try to bring to discuss!!
think very carefully about it...
LiMBO is an old warframe and they (DE) know its mechanics VERY well !!!
so, I stay here thinking to myself...
how can a game developer, who knows the game inside, let such a failure happen right away with a new weapon... it didn't happen with the previous ones!!  as it just happened now, with a new one?!

think better about this little detail!

(I'm sorry to be encouraging to escape the main point of the topic, but I couldn't resist)

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those are your opinions on how you see a grind/farm game!!

I have a completely different opinion from yours !!!

7 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

sp was never a challenge, it was challenge to not fall asleep ffs

yes, it is true, I think I could have had a better balance, but I made clear at the beginning that I do not want to talk and I will not talk about it, nor is the focus of this post!
 

7 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

I love the new system, because I don't have to spend boring hours in a mission.
I can get the missions done in 10-20 min and I'm off to do something more interesting.

Yeah! do you like to farm only 20 min max...

unlike you, I like to stay a long time... (with friends or alone)
I like to see mobs exploding, melting... going to hell!!!
I find it very fun.
(I think this is what makes me not find it boring to farm for a long time and keep repeating all time the same missions... maybeee!!)
and I also like to gather ALL kinds of LOOTs!
I have this accumulator thing... maybe it's the weight of my age, I don't know!! I'm not sure about! who cares about that!!!  :P

 

I'm an old Quake player... (the first game)
I like deathmatch and I love to see everything turn into a lot of debris and scraps!!
when I met WARFRAME, I transferred all this "thing", to the MOBs, because... WARFRAME is a cooperative one  ;)

Edited by S0NGA
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2 minutes ago, S0NGA said:

I'm an old Quake player... (the first game)
I like deathmatch and I love to see everything turn into a lot of debris and scraps!!
when I met WARFRAME, I transferred all this "thing", to the MOBs, because... WARFRAME is a cooperative one  ;)

Me too, but from 2 to 3.
 

2 minutes ago, S0NGA said:

unlike you, I like to stay a long time... (with friends or alone)
I like to see mobs exploding, melting... going to hell!!!
I find it very fun.

Who said I don't like to do long missions?
I just have a different opinion - for me the rewards have to coincide with the mission.
That's why I do arbitrations the most - they are fun and have a variety of rewards(even If I have them already), so that way I have my challenge if I go on 1-2 hours+ and I get useful items for it(not just one resource).

If SP was like old arbies(no revives for weak tenno) and had more rewards in I will play it way more.
For now it doesn't - steel essence is worth only for kuva(I don't need kuva from a long time) and an occasional umbra forma(that I also don't need at the moment but it's good that it's there)
But as you say you are a different person, you play for the "fun" only, I play for fun and rewards.

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2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

Me too, but from 2 to 3.

🙃 🥰 😍 🤩 COOOOOOOOOL... if U have played (knows) quake, U know that I felling...
pls... look for the first game QUAKE (released in 22 Jun 1996)
 

2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

Who said I don't like to do long missions?
I just have a different opinion - for me the rewards have to coincide with the mission.
That's why I do arbitrations the most - they are fun and have a variety of rewards(even If I have them already), so that way I have my challenge if I go on 1-2 hours+ and I get useful items for it(not just one resource).

oooops... sorry me about this!
 

2 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

If SP was like old arbies(no revives for weak tenno) and had more rewards in I will play it way more.

For now it doesn't - steel essence is worth only for kuva(I don't need kuva from a long time) and an occasional umbra forma(that I also don't need at the moment but it's good that it's there)
But as you say you are a different person, you play for the "fun" only, I play for fun and rewards.

noooooooo...
U dont read "...I have this accumulator thing... "
I like the resources and the rewards too, of course yeezzz!!  ;)

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8 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Did anyone else get a windfall of SE in the inbox? I was worried I wouldn't get this week's Umbral forma, but they just gave away an extra 400+ SE.

Yeah, I had given up on trying to get the last Umbra BP until I got that inbox message. 

I enjoy SP, but I feel like I'm going to experiencing a little bit of fomo when Umbra BPs show up. 

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