Power Creep and some Suggestions for curtailing it

[Amoral_Support]

I think maybe introducing a powerlevel system in matchmaking would actually be a good approach to controlling power creep in Warframe. Some folks have suggested nerfs as a solution The problem with blanket nerfs is that you will never make everyone happy. Some people like the cheese and other folks like punishing difficulty. If you are playing with pub groups its hard to find the middle ground where you and your squadmates can all have fun with diverse builds. Eventually someone is going to bring their one button afk machine and kill all the challenge.

Maybe DE can do what games like 40k or MTG do and institute an optional format system or points limit to matchmaking. Make certain builds playable in open play but if someone wants to play in a more regulated environment they can only match with like minded people.  Like if your build has a power level of 1000 points you only match with other tenno with 1000 point builds. Forma, mod drain and mr locks would make that fairly easy to balance imo. 

I think some considerations towards giving the meta some structure would lend itself to build diversity. In games like Magic there are similar problems with regulating player power. However there are formats for every style of play. Limitations breed creativity and honestly, if you wanna run your op cheese build you should be free too. I should also be free to run my silly niche builds if i want too.

[Krankbert]

Won't solve anything, will instead make the problem worse.

Matchmaking is already way too fractured as it is.
Doesn't improve diversity at the top end.
Instead of whining about nerfs people will whine about not getting carried.

Most importantly, past a certain point, Forma, mod drain and MR locks have nothing to do with power and are therefore useless for balancing. You'd have to manually assign point scores to everything, then certain things will be more powerful for their point score, and now instead of one balancing nightmare you have several.

[Spectre-8]

I for one am for nerfs as in number tweaks and mechanical changes but there might be a better way ofc .

[TARINunit9]

24 minutes ago, Amoral_Support said:

I think maybe introducing a powerlevel system in matchmaking would actually be a good approach to controlling power creep in Warframe. 

By definition, the end of power creep would mean that the devs need to announce two things:

1) Everything that is released right now, is as powerful as we will ever get. All new content will be as strong, never stronger

2) All future contents will be balanced around that power level

[Spectre-8]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

By definition, the end of power creep would mean that the devs need to announce two things:

1) Everything that is released right now, is as powerful as we will ever get. All new content will be as strong, never stronger

2) All future contents will be balanced around that power level

Oh man there's going to be riots in the streets , but we already have these so might as well .

[Drasiel]

Warframe kind of flirted with something like this back in the day it was the conclave score found on mods. It immediately ran into several problems:

If it was visible people would refuse to play with others who had "scrub" level scores. 

It was wildy innaccurate because sometimes it's not the mod itself that is powerful but a combination. 

It was hopelessly outdated because other parts of game design always came first. 

A system to auto restrict matchmaking based on something like conclave score sounds like it will turn public matchmaking into a pseudo ghost town and create more problems than it solves. 

[Surbusken]

The problem also comes down to rewards.

When people put in time and work to peform better, either using stats or manual gameplay, or both, shouldn't they be rewarded with unique items?

Flipside of that is alienating people who are more casual that either can't or won't play on that level. Doesn't everyone have a right to access all content?

Either side you come down on, you are crapping on the opposition.

[kevoisvevo]

3 hours ago, Surbusken said:

The problem also comes down to rewards.

When people put in time and work to peform better, either using stats or manual gameplay, or both, shouldn't they be rewarded with unique items?

Flipside of that is alienating people who are more casual that either can't or won't play on that level. Doesn't everyone have a right to access all content?

Either side you come down on, you are crapping on the opposition.

This is the golden goose right here. People should address this first and then power creep. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

No thanks. Maybe curtail your need to try to change something that isn't an issue lol.

[Amoral_Support]

12 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Warframe kind of flirted with something like this back in the day it was the conclave score found on mods. It immediately ran into several problems:

If it was visible people would refuse to play with others who had "scrub" level scores. 

It was wildy innaccurate because sometimes it's not the mod itself that is powerful but a combination. 

It was hopelessly outdated because other parts of game design always came first. 

A system to auto restrict matchmaking based on something like conclave score sounds like it will turn public matchmaking into a pseudo ghost town and create more problems than it solves. 

Im suggesting that these formats be optional. Like you choose to play in one rather then it be forced on you. Like you could have a 1000/2000/3000 and open formats. It would actually reward player skill and give certain load outs more meaning in game. If we look at mtg for examples again it would do 2 things. Allow for more than one meta and allow DE to adjust access to certain combos. I  agree that its usually mod combos that drive power creep. The same is true in mtg. Wizards usually bans or restricts the cards they know are degenerate for a format. But they never outright nerf them. Im not opposed to nerfs, i just would love to see DE curate their game more. 

 

[Amoral_Support]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

No thanks. Maybe curtail your need to try to change something that isn't an issue lol.

Do you have anything to actually say on the subject? 

Seems like you'd rather make snarky remarks instead of engage with my ideas.

[Amoral_Support]

12 hours ago, Surbusken said:

The problem also comes down to rewards.

When people put in time and work to peform better, either using stats or manual gameplay, or both, shouldn't they be rewarded with unique items?

Flipside of that is alienating people who are more casual that either can't or won't play on that level. Doesn't everyone have a right to access all content?

Either side you come down on, you are crapping on the opposition.

I agree, maybe encourage format use by giving player access to free boosters? 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

13 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Some folks have suggested nerfs as a solution The problem with blanket nerfs is that you will never make everyone happy.

I know i'm just stating the obvious here, but if this was a problem, then DE might as well just give up, and when i say "give up", i mean that they would just shut down warframe and never make anything ever again.

 

12 hours ago, Surbusken said:

The problem also comes down to rewards.

When people put in time and work to peform better, either using stats or manual gameplay, or both, shouldn't they be rewarded with unique items?

Flipside of that is alienating people who are more casual that either can't or won't play on that level. Doesn't everyone have a right to access all content?

Either side you come down on, you are crapping on the opposition.

Nah. DE should put 10x effort into making a new game mode that has something for everyone, except people obsessed with rewards. Put 0 rewards into it to prove a point. Point = without stuff, most won't care.

[Surbusken]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Nah. DE should put 10x effort into making a new game mode that has something for everyone, except people obsessed with rewards. Put 0 rewards into it to prove a point. Point = without stuff, most won't care.

The following without judgement but in relation to problem solving; how to sell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption

conspicuous consumption

n

spending in a lavish or ostentatious way, esp to impress others with one's wealth

Source: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Invidious+consumption

 

Taken from a textbook dating back to early days of industrialized capitalism. Meaning, a long standing fact in sales.

The attempt being to profile different buyer motives, so you can direct your product at a given segment.

Now, one of those segment's whole core basis, is having something others don't. Then you actually even have the polar opposite segment, people who only want an item if everyone else has it...

Simply to say, different groups are in contrast and in opposition to eachother; where you ironically cannot make something 'for everyone', because some people don't want things that are for everyone... lol.

Not passing judgement on anyone or any preference here at all, simply stating that, that is the conflict of being a seller; picking your customers, and by implication pushing others out.

Is also why you hear people flaming eachother's viewpoints so often, they literally contrast with eachother and have the exact opposite outlook and priorities.

And why debating is so imporant, so you learn your own bias and see the case from all perspectives noticing other people's bias.

 

Like if you come into the game now, hey I want to go farm xaku or hildryn or garuda... but then you got high end players asking for a challenge. That's the problem.

[Amoral_Support]

1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

The following without judgement but in relation to problem solving; how to sell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption

conspicuous consumption

n

spending in a lavish or ostentatious way, esp to impress others with one's wealth

Source: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Invidious+consumption

 

Taken from a textbook dating back to early days of industrialized capitalism. Meaning, a long standing fact in sales.

The attempt being to profile different buyer motives, so you can direct your product at a given segment.

Now, one of those segment's whole core basis, is having something others don't. Then you actually even have the polar opposite segment, people who only want an item if everyone else has it...

Simply to say, different groups are in contrast and in opposition to eachother; where you ironically cannot make something 'for everyone', because some people don't want things that are for everyone... lol.

Not passing judgement on anyone or any preference here at all, simply stating that, that is the conflict of being a seller; picking your customers, and by implication pushing others out.

Is also why you hear people flaming eachother's viewpoints so often, they literally contrast with eachother and have the exact opposite outlook and priorities.

And why debating is so imporant, so you learn your own bias and see the case from all perspectives noticing other people's bias.

 

Like if you come into the game now, hey I want to go farm xaku or hildryn or garuda... but then you got high end players asking for a challenge. That's the problem.

Thats an interesting perspective.

I think one of the challenges DE faces with Warframe is that players have wildly different priorities in game. These priorities are really diverse, to the point where keeping tabs on them all is impossible. The discourse has also been poisoned by more popular conceptions of DEs competence or perceived objectives.

Some folks want DE to produce content for very narrow interests. Not judging either, but those same folks will very vocally trash DE for not appealing to them. Its a difficult environment to design around and I dont envy DE having to deal with this. 

My contention is that instead of being completely hands off or hands on, DE would benefit from introducing more structure to our play. 

Further developing formats of play based around power level would force a meta shake up. Tying very general rewards, like boosters, to playing in more restrictive formats would incentivize build and play style creativity. If a mod gets out of hand but doesnt need to be nerfed, just make it harder to use in a particular format. Warframe has a lot of complexity in it without much pay off. If learning that complexity had a pay off that would be invaluable.

[kevoisvevo]

14 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

I think maybe introducing a powerlevel system in matchmaking would actually be a good approach to controlling power creep in Warframe. Some folks have suggested nerfs as a solution The problem with blanket nerfs is that you will never make everyone happy. Some people like the cheese and other folks like punishing difficulty. If you are playing with pub groups its hard to find the middle ground where you and your squadmates can all have fun with diverse builds. Eventually someone is going to bring their one button afk machine and kill all the challenge.

Maybe DE can do what games like 40k or MTG do and institute an optional format system or points limit to matchmaking. Make certain builds playable in open play but if someone wants to play in a more regulated environment they can only match with like minded people.  Like if your build has a power level of 1000 points you only match with other tenno with 1000 point builds. Forma, mod drain and mr locks would make that fairly easy to balance imo. 

I think some considerations towards giving the meta some structure would lend itself to build diversity. In games like Magic there are similar problems with regulating player power. However there are formats for every style of play. Limitations breed creativity and honestly, if you wanna run your op cheese build you should be free too. I should also be free to run my silly niche builds if i want too.

this would require serious balancing which even companies like bungie, valve and blizzard have had problems with. DE is infamous with their balancing and I would rather they not muck up the old stuff and keep focusing on the new. 

[Tiltskillet]

15 hours ago, Surbusken said:

The problem also comes down to rewards.

When people put in time and work to peform better, either using stats or manual gameplay, or both, shouldn't they be rewarded with unique items?

Flipside of that is alienating people who are more casual that either can't or won't play on that level. Doesn't everyone have a right to access all content?

Either side you come down on, you are crapping on the opposition.

It's a minefield no doubt, but there are pathways through it.  Probably the most common way is that the grinders get things early, while the casuals get things...eventually.   That can be handled well or poorly, and some people on both sides will invariably think it should be tilted more their direction.  But overall, players seem to accept the basic premise.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

2 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Thats an interesting perspective.

I think one of the challenges DE faces with Warframe is that players have wildly different priorities in game. These priorities are really diverse, to the point where keeping tabs on them all is impossible. The discourse has also been poisoned by more popular conceptions of DEs competence or perceived objectives.

Some folks want DE to produce content for very narrow interests. Not judging either, but those same folks will very vocally trash DE for not appealing to them. Its a difficult environment to design around and I dont envy DE having to deal with this. 

My contention is that instead of being completely hands off or hands on, DE would benefit from introducing more structure to our play. 

Further developing formats of play based around power level would force a meta shake up. Tying very general rewards, like boosters, to playing in more restrictive formats would incentivize build and play style creativity. If a mod gets out of hand but doesnt need to be nerfed, just make it harder to use in a particular format. Warframe has a lot of complexity in it without much pay off. If learning that complexity had a pay off that would be invaluable.

Either way, a meta WILL emerge and people WILL copy it to get rewards faster. It is what it is.

 

3 hours ago, Surbusken said:

-

Yeah, i know. Besides, this kind of behaviour has been going on for years in MMOs (and in real life, as you pointed out). Still, i would prefer that at least one group of developers try something original, instead of the same old recycled crap. Of course we know why that won't happen. Since the old is guaranteed to bring sales and new things might not, we will continue to get the same olds crap until the video game industry ends.

[Amoral_Support]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Yggranya said:

Either way, a meta WILL emerge and people WILL copy it to get rewards faster. It is what it 

I dont think that DE should spend time stopping the meta from existing. I think they should try and direct it. Lets power gamers and casuals have fun without having to really encounter each other. 

 

[Ragnafiro]

18 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

I think maybe introducing a powerlevel system in matchmaking would actually be a good approach to controlling power creep in Warframe. Some folks have suggested nerfs as a solution The problem with blanket nerfs is that you will never make everyone happy. Some people like the cheese and other folks like punishing difficulty. If you are playing with pub groups its hard to find the middle ground where you and your squadmates can all have fun with diverse builds. Eventually someone is going to bring their one button afk machine and kill all the challenge.

Maybe DE can do what games like 40k or MTG do and institute an optional format system or points limit to matchmaking. Make certain builds playable in open play but if someone wants to play in a more regulated environment they can only match with like minded people.  Like if your build has a power level of 1000 points you only match with other tenno with 1000 point builds. Forma, mod drain and mr locks would make that fairly easy to balance imo. 

I think some considerations towards giving the meta some structure would lend itself to build diversity. In games like Magic there are similar problems with regulating player power. However there are formats for every style of play. Limitations breed creativity and honestly, if you wanna run your op cheese build you should be free too. I should also be free to run my silly niche builds if i want too.

If you have noticed the tools are given to us players in updates since 2019 to now, almost all of the new tools are dogsht on released and buffed to make the impression that DE pretent to care (Of course, Jovian Concord and Deadlock Protocol are outliers as they're regarded as good updates mainly for the fewest shtshow DE released but enable powercreep like Wisp and Stropha). Few of the buffed shts like newly released Gauss or Protea turns out to be in a good place but not metabreaking. Most of the remaining buffed shts still don't perform even close to well in relative to the high end peers (Looking at Grendel and buffed Chroma KEKW).

My point is that if DE want to release good shts, then they should look at the high end competition of frames, weapons, arcanes, etc., things like Saryn, Kronen Prime, and Arcane Strike. Those examples I mentioned are the 5/5 performance so new shts should be close to a 4.5/5 so that way, powercreep is prevented and they would perform very close to the top peers that people actually get to have fun without gimping themselves with mediocrity.

But here's the reality: DE mades dogsht stuffs on purpose on released, then they buff it based in cherry-picking feedback to alleviate the backlack, and they don't care about the result of said buffs as long the voices calm down. Grendel is still poo for months untouched. Buffed Deimos Arcana's from the Test Server still not worth picking when Arcane Strike and Arcane Fury remains top choices for the best tools as a main damage dealer right now: melees. And don't get me started with the state of guns as a main damage dealer being unusable in SP witthout picking Mirage or buff frames when melees benefits from the latter thricefold.

DE is trying to avoid powercreep too hard to the point that most of the released stuffs (and some tools after been buffed) are under 2.5/5. And it's kinda hypocritical when they powercreep the fck out of Djinn with the Vulpaphylas, Wisp mostly outclassed the need to pick Frost and Oberon combined in Excavation lol, and Stropha happens to be the best weapon for Mag 2 which no other guns in WF even come close.

[Amoral_Support]

3 hours ago, Ragnafiro said:

If you have noticed the tools are given to us players in updates since 2019 to now, almost all of the new tools are dogsht on released and buffed to make the impression that DE pretent to care (Of course, Jovian Concord and Deadlock Protocol are outliers as they're regarded as good updates mainly for the fewest shtshow DE released but enable powercreep like Wisp and Stropha). Few of the buffed shts like newly released Gauss or Protea turns out to be in a good place but not metabreaking. Most of the remaining buffed shts still don't perform even close to well in relative to the high end peers (Looking at Grendel and buffed Chroma KEKW).

My point is that if DE want to release good shts, then they should look at the high end competition of frames, weapons, arcanes, etc., things like Saryn, Kronen Prime, and Arcane Strike. Those examples I mentioned are the 5/5 performance so new shts should be close to a 4.5/5 so that way, powercreep is prevented and they would perform very close to the top peers that people actually get to have fun without gimping themselves with mediocrity.

But here's the reality: DE mades dogsht stuffs on purpose on released, then they buff it based in cherry-picking feedback to alleviate the backlack, and they don't care about the result of said buffs as long the voices calm down. Grendel is still poo for months untouched. Buffed Deimos Arcana's from the Test Server still not worth picking when Arcane Strike and Arcane Fury remains top choices for the best tools as a main damage dealer right now: melees. And don't get me started with the state of guns as a main damage dealer being unusable in SP witthout picking Mirage or buff frames when melees benefits from the latter thricefold.

DE is trying to avoid powercreep too hard to the point that most of the released stuffs (and some tools after been buffed) are under 2.5/5. And it's kinda hypocritical when they powercreep the fck out of Djinn with the Vulpaphylas, Wisp mostly outclassed the need to pick Frost and Oberon combined in Excavation lol, and Stropha happens to be the best weapon for Mag 2 which no other guns in WF even come close.

I cant really tell if you believe power creep is a problem or not. You keep pointing at examplea of really good frames and weapons and then saying power creep doesnt exist.

Are you saying that the strength of new gear items is so low as to not be considered power creep? I am forced to disagree. Kuva Bramma, Kuva Nukor and Catchmoon are some examples. The new melee system, as you pointed out, has out classed every other weapon type. Viral status is sickeningly good in 90% of the game. Power creep is... not a debate worthy subject. It exists.

Now thats not to say that undercooked content isnt a thing in this game. I think we agree there. I dont find it to be a deal breaker personally. 

 

[(PSN)theMycon]

Doesn't this already exist, though?

 

Matchmaking definitely used to be done based on your conclave score - the game's best estimate of your power based on gear and mods. It still seems to be - I always get matched with lower MR players when I have less & worse gear equipped.  

[Monolake]

On 2020-11-21 at 4:08 AM, Amoral_Support said:

 

Maybe DE can do what games like 40k or MTG do and institute an optional format system or points limit to matchmaking. Make certain builds playable in open play but if someone wants to play in a more regulated environment they can only match with like minded people.  Like if your build has a power level of 1000 points you only match with other tenno with 1000 point builds. Forma, mod drain and mr locks would make that fairly easy to balance imo. 

...

Will never happen cause DE cant balance in the first place even if they wanted, they usually take over 6 months to even catch up on obviously broken things that everyone already knows of. And they dont buff useless gear nearly enough even when they get all the player feedback and obviously read it. And "would make that fairly easy to balance" no, the game is vast and complex, its not an easy task either. Go try rating all frame abilities for a start, good luck getting it right.

 

[Ragnafiro]

2 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

I cant really tell if you believe power creep is a problem or not. You keep pointing at examplea of really good frames and weapons and then saying power creep doesnt exist.

My apologies for not making a TLDR so here it is:

Power creep do exist in the few leaking holes that DE made a wall of via attempt to bring "balance", making most stuffs to be bad on released then buff it later.

2 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Are you saying that the strength of new gear items is so low as to not be considered power creep? I am forced to disagree. Kuva Bramma, Kuva Nukor and Catchmoon are some examples. The new melee system, as you pointed out, has out classed every other weapon type. Viral status is sickeningly good in 90% of the game. Power creep is... not a debate worthy subject. It exists.

Well, MOST gears don't even come close to the top trends. The weapons you mentioned like the Bramma and Nukor are an outlier from the mentality DE normally go 'cause they really want people to try the Kuva Lich revise by making overtuned weapons during that time. As for the Catchmoon secondary in relative to other secondaries, it was the time when Fortuna came out in 2018 so I don't have any comment on that. Yeah powercreep exist and it's a problem for me personally.

2 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Now thats not to say that undercooked content isnt a thing in this game. I think we agree there. I dont find it to be a deal breaker personally. 

I'll get used to dissapoint soon. That's how I tell myself and I'm somehow baffled by most update that isn't Jovian Concord, Deadlock Protocol, or the Warframe Revise.

[killerJoke66]

there goes nothin