Power Creep and some Suggestions for curtailing it

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Do you have anything to actually say on the subject? 

Seems like you'd rather make snarky remarks instead of engage with my ideas.

There's not much to say. 

Powercreep isn't an issue. It's just an opinion of some people that want their old 2014 warframe back. 

I feel sufficiently limited by the game, because of the limited mod space, needing to use formas to achieve more power, which takes time for every frame and weapon. 

I have to farm credits and endo for some Primed mods I still need, and I have to make room for those mods via forma. 

Even if I built a super spammy AOE room clear build, I still have to make sure I have sufficient energy as well.

[Aesthier]

Completely take out Rivens, and stick by the idea that harder content does not mean greater rewards.

 

~Fin

[Prexades]

In a way the open world maps, Archgun Gravimags, Raiiljack and now the Necramechs are a way to deal with the power creep. Those systems are another way of progression that doesn't affect the core aspects too much.

[Amoral_Support]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's not much to say. 

Powercreep isn't an issue. It's just an opinion of some people that want their old 2014 warframe back. 

I feel sufficiently limited by the game, because of the limited mod space, needing to use formas to achieve more power, which takes time for every frame and weapon. 

I have to farm credits and endo for some Primed mods I still need, and I have to make room for those mods via forma. 

Even if I built a super spammy AOE room clear build, I still have to make sure I have sufficient energy as well.

Oh ok, I think I understand your perspective. I dont know if I agree. There are builds in Warframe that remove all challenge from the game. They take time to put together, sure. Im drawing a parallel between MTG and Warframe in this regard. Some decks are objectively more powerful than others, but they break the game. In order to manage that Wizards organizes competitive play into formats. Each format has different rules for deck construction, legally playable cards and Ban lists. These formats are a useful tool for creating diversity in play styles.  I think that situations like having to nerf OP things or have mods/gear that are overwhelmingly powerful could be regulated along these lines without removing or nerfing them from the game. Its a win win in my mind. Do you play MTG?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

23 minutes ago, Amoral_Support said:

Oh ok, I think I understand your perspective. I dont know if I agree. There are builds in Warframe that remove all challenge from the game. They take time to put together, sure. Im drawing a parallel between MTG and Warframe in this regard. Some decks are objectively more powerful than others, but they break the game. In order to manage that Wizards organizes competitive play into formats. Each format has different rules for deck construction, legally playable cards and Ban lists. These formats are a useful tool for creating diversity in play styles.  I think that situations like having to nerf OP things or have mods/gear that are overwhelmingly powerful could be regulated along these lines without removing or nerfing them from the game. Its a win win in my mind. Do you play MTG?

The issue with MTG is that keeping up with something like Standard is an investment in itself and people don't like the fact that new cards expire like spoiled milk after a set rotates out.

With Warframe, something along the lines of formats would further fragment the player base. Besides, Warframe isn't a competitive game .

(Conclave isn't very popular and has its own broken meta.)

Remember, a lot of the meta gear in Warframe is unnecessary in standard star chart missions, relic missions or even Sorties. The Steel Path was introduced because players complained that there was no content to justify owning their over-optimized gear. 

I ran with an Rank 8 Serration for the longest time because I didn't see the reason to spend the endo for that last +30% damage if I already could complete Sorties and Ranking up to 10 would mean all the guns I ran with would require an extra forma to fit everything.

Some people put together brain dead builds to cheese missions, but that's only for PVE.

The only reason people invest in these brain dead builds is that it makes farming more efficient and bearable because farming is a slog.

My suggestion is that DE should probably tweak drop rates, credit boosters and affinity gain based on the Mastery level of the gear and number of Forma you are running with.

For example:

+%Credit Booster = {30-[(Mastery Level of Primary + Forma)+(Mastery Level of Secondary + Forma)+(Mastery Level of Melee + Forma)]/3}

Something like that would help new players who are starved for credits and would be something Veterans won't care much about.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, Amoral_Support said:

Oh ok, I think I understand your perspective. I dont know if I agree. There are builds in Warframe that remove all challenge from the game. They take time to put together, sure. Im drawing a parallel between MTG and Warframe in this regard. Some decks are objectively more powerful than others, but they break the game. In order to manage that Wizards organizes competitive play into formats. Each format has different rules for deck construction, legally playable cards and Ban lists. These formats are a useful tool for creating diversity in play styles.  I think that situations like having to nerf OP things or have mods/gear that are overwhelmingly powerful could be regulated along these lines without removing or nerfing them from the game. Its a win win in my mind. Do you play MTG?

Uhm....Magic The Gathering? If so, that's a completely different game....why even try to compare them? Isn't that a one on one PvP setting? 

Warframe is a co-op/solo horde looter action rpg/"musou" game. 

[Amoral_Support]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Uhm....Magic The Gathering? If so, that's a completely different game....why even try to compare them? Isn't that a one on one PvP setting? 

Warframe is a co-op/solo horde looter action rpg/"musou" game. 

I understand there isnt a one to one comparison with MTG and Warframe. They are similar in a couple respects. They are both social games and they both have insane power levels.

Magic can be played in multiplayer settings. Players agree to use decks constructed under specific format rules. These decks will not have certain cards in them. Theres also the option for casual or kitchen table Magic that doesnt have any limits beyond what cards you own. Im using this as an example that could aid understanding my suggestions. That being the idea that introducing formats would increase diversity and limit powercreep. 

In my opinion, Warframe has problems with power level. The first problem is that its really hard to make content when there are usually much better alternatives. Personal tastes not withstanding, not every choice in buildcraft is as usuable as the other. This is bad because in order for Warframe to continue to exist DE needs to keep peoples interest in the game. If there is only one narrowly defined meta, players are going to get bored or worse resentful. We've seen this time and again. 

Like i get it though. People invest a lot of time and energy (sometimes personal expression) into their builds. I dont want to pass judgement or say that that time spent was wasted. Far from it.

Ultimately what im suggesting is having more structure in where we use our builds. Limitations breed creativity. Succeeding with limited resources is a pretty good feeling. It also feels pretty good to depopulate a Grineer warship with op space magic. The point is not to limit what people can use at all times. Just to give them the option.

[Mephane]

On 2020-11-21 at 2:08 AM, Amoral_Support said:

I think maybe introducing a powerlevel system

I'll stop you reight there. Power level systems have never done any good to any game, and are either designed from the get go - or eventually devolve into - an grind to chase an arbitrary and often ever escalating number.

[Amoral_Support]

1 minute ago, Mephane said:

I'll stop you reight there. Power level systems have never done any good to any game, and are either designed from the get go - or eventually devolve into - an grind to chase an arbitrary and often ever escalating number.

Can you elaborate or provide some examples?

[Mephane]

Just now, Amoral_Support said:

Can you elaborate or provide some examples?

First some examples:

• Vermintide 2. Power level from your gear and character level just nerfs your output if you are below the max, and adds a gear grind to a game that shouldn't have one to begin with.
• Destiny 2. Most of the game revolves around chasing each new increase of the power level cap, virtually a treadmill where you never get anywhere, made worse by the weekly time gating on your progression. The game is the epitome of grind for grind's sake.
• Inquisitor Martyr. Power level expressly scales the rewards from missions, to the point where you sometimes have to unequip half of your year to purposely reduce your power level in order to get any reward at all.
• Anthem. Gear has stats with actual numbers, but then also a power level with also goes into the calculation for the damage of your abilities, so that instead of being able to just compare the stats of two items, the one with the higher roll or more interesting bonus may be weaker just because the power level was a couple of points lower. (They also did that thing where higher maximum power level gear than usual would be award by participating in a time limited event, which makes this even worse.)

Power level systems replace a meaningful system of stats and gear, and more often than not a game with such a system would actually be improved by dropping it altogether, even if not replaced by something better. I would be happy to be proven wrong or shown an example where such a system is genuinely beneficial.

[Amoral_Support]

25 minutes ago, Mephane said:

First some examples:

• Vermintide 2. Power level from your gear and character level just nerfs your output if you are below the max, and adds a gear grind to a game that shouldn't have one to begin with.
• Destiny 2. Most of the game revolves around chasing each new increase of the power level cap, virtually a treadmill where you never get anywhere, made worse by the weekly time gating on your progression. The game is the epitome of grind for grind's sake.
• Inquisitor Martyr. Power level expressly scales the rewards from missions, to the point where you sometimes have to unequip half of your year to purposely reduce your power level in order to get any reward at all.
• Anthem. Gear has stats with actual numbers, but then also a power level with also goes into the calculation for the damage of your abilities, so that instead of being able to just compare the stats of two items, the one with the higher roll or more interesting bonus may be weaker just because the power level was a couple of points lower. (They also did that thing where higher maximum power level gear than usual would be award by participating in a time limited event, which makes this even worse.)

Power level systems replace a meaningful system of stats and gear, and more often than not a game with such a system would actually be improved by dropping it altogether, even if not replaced by something better. I would be happy to be proven wrong or shown an example where such a system is genuinely beneficial.

That Vermintide 2 example is the closest to what im suggesting. Also a good example with a potential problem. Thank you for providing that :). I dunno if the others are comparable though. 

 I agree that tying stats and rewards to the power level of specific gear items is a bad idea. What im saying is that mods and gear have a static power level assigned based on things like rarity, energy drain, MR level locks, forma, reactors etc. So hypothetically a melee weapon with Primed Fever strike does not have the same power level as one with Fever Strike. 

My proposed system would be entirely optional. You could elect to play with these limitations at your discretion. The most i would suggest is a booster (like steel path) as reward for intentionally playing with less optimized gear. It would balance out in a way because highly minmaxed builds would have an easier time and could still play the game the way they want too. 

The system would have to be very generalized. Outliers that warp formats would be very noticeable and could be addressed without nerfing their statiscal values. Just where they can be used.

Ive provided some examples where it works well in table top gaming.

Warhammer 40k has a points system for army building and its an integral part of game balance. Limiting your options for army builds based on an agreement between players. Otherwise i could buy a table full of Titans and never loose a game.

MTG does something similar, you cant play Vintage decks in Modern and vice versa. If you could, you wouldnt see anything but Vintage decks in every format. 

 

 

[BahamutKaiser]

I'm all for reducing vertical scaling, for players and opponents, it would be nice if there was a more consistent and practical challenge. But it doesn't need to happen. 

[Loza03]

39 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

I'm all for reducing vertical scaling, for players and opponents, it would be nice if there was a more consistent and practical challenge. But it doesn't need to happen. 

I would argue that it does largely for interest's sake.

For my money, Warframe has consistently been at its best when it's a creative sandbox where you can screw around with a personalised setup that you find the most fun. Not necessarily super hard - if even at all - but enabling creative play whilst encouraging it via enemy and mission design. Balance issues, nuking, bullet sponges, CC spam, arbitrary ability immunity whatever - all of these get in the way of that game. There's always such a linearly powerful option that DE kind of has to assume you're using, and winds up balancing either rewards, enemies or both around, which in turn makes more niche builds and playstyles far less appealing than they really should be.

Empyrean Ground Grineer, for example, feature the suppressor - a high-damage, AoE hitscan enemy, slowing enemy that used to have a massive health bar comparable to a sortie boss, in primarily tight close-quarters environments. For reference, I play Limbo, but I prefer playing him more focused around hopping in and out of the rift - at the time I was using a 'regular' build because the low-duration wasn't working out for me, and I'd slotted in Quick Thinking for EHP. I was dying in a few frames whenever I went anywhere near one of these things (which was often because there wasn't a lot of space), especially before shield-gating.

 I don't  care what game you're playing, dying to oneshot AoE hitscan isn't fun, and getting slowed if you survive isn't either. Of course, I still had a room-wide stasis I could drop whenever I damn well pleased. And so I felt compelled to do that, because it worked far more consistently, and got far better results. But it sure as hell wasn't any fun. See also, Wolf of Saturn, Nihil and Necramech - although on that last one, since toying around with Ripline and developing my own Necramech and setting it up with a Radiation gun, a bit I've managed to salvage a lot more enjoyment. Turns out being able to swing circles around them makes the whole experience of fighting them a great deal more fun, as does going toe-to-toe in your own once they're set up to do good damage.

 

Of course, god help you if you try to play in a creative manner outside of solo. Because all it takes is one person playing the powerhouse builds to force you out of these playstyles to be able to do ANYTHING. An Ash assassin setup? Nuking kills heavies as fast as you do. Using Limbo as a sniper who uses the rift to relocate and secure targets? Good luck getting those targets, and someone's probably gonna give you **** because you could have been a defence setup instead. Want to play a tank role wading into battle or staying on the front lines drawing fire away from the point? That meta-head Limbo has made you useless because of his repeatable, absolute defence that CC's anything that gets within 20 metres.

I've never thought Warframe needs to be all that hard, but it does need to keep itself interesting. For that reason alone, curtailing power creep is an important endeavour.

[Amoral_Support]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Of course, god help you if you try to play in a creative manner outside of solo. Because all it takes is one person playing the powerhouse builds to force you out of these playstyles to be able to do ANYTHING. An Ash assassin setup? Nuking kills heavies as fast as you do. Using Limbo as a sniper who uses the rift to relocate and secure targets? Good luck getting those targets, and someone's probably gonna give you **** because you could have been a defence setup instead. Want to play a tank role wading into battle or staying on the front lines drawing fire away from the point? That meta-head Limbo has made you useless because of his repeatable, absolute defence that CC's anything that gets within 20 metres

Omg this. It ties into the whole different priorties argument that was made earlier. I dont really need rewards to play this game. Tinkering with niche builds is its own reward. It does suck that most content is balanced around cheese builds existing. The Meta warps the game just as much as it is informed by it.

[Loza03]

20 minutes ago, Amoral_Support said:

Omg this. It ties into the whole different priorties argument that was made earlier. I dont really need rewards to play this game. Tinkering with niche builds is its own reward.

And in turn, rewards can serve as new building blocks to further tinker with builds. I desperately want Ripline on Helminth. I'm not fond of the rest of Valkyr's playstyle (low-duration Limbo suits me) but Ripline is so much fun.

28 minutes ago, Amoral_Support said:

It does suck that most content is balanced around cheese builds existing. The Meta warps the game just as much as it is informed by it.

I know, and it's sad.

[Jarriaga]

On 2020-11-20 at 10:16 PM, Surbusken said:

The problem also comes down to rewards.

When people put in time and work to peform better, either using stats or manual gameplay, or both, shouldn't they be rewarded with unique items?

To what end? There is literally nothing in the game that requires top of the line for a basic mission completion state. You beat TSP Mot survival after 5 minutes, not 2 hours.

[Surbusken]

47 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

To what end? There is literally nothing in the game that requires top of the line for a basic mission completion state. You beat TSP Mot survival after 5 minutes, not 2 hours.

I am not entirely sure I understand the question here.

We are talking about player motivation and needs; 'what different groups want from the game'.

The game has to entice players in relation to their specific preferences, regardless of your opinion of the perceived value of said motivation, but the point was then brought up, some motivations are in conflict - in direct contrast, working against eachother.

I don't know if that answered the question of if I didn't understand it right.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Surbusken said:

I am not entirely sure I understand the question here.

We are talking about player motivation and needs; 'what different groups want from the game'.

The game has to entice players in relation to their specific preferences, regardless of your opinion of the perceived value of said motivation, but the point was then brought up, some motivations are in conflict - in direct contrast, working against eachother.

I don't know if that answered the question of if I didn't understand it right.

I meant that the player's power levels available to them vastly outclass the game's presented challenge to such a wide degree that we can get nerfed to less than half our current performance and it would still satisfy the game's criteria and the developer's criteria of what a successful mission completion state is.

In lieu of this, to what end do they want more power when they have nowhere and nothing to use it on? Might as well turn on autogib/one-shot mode at this stage.

[Surbusken]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I meant that the player's power levels available to them vastly outclass the game's presented challenge to such a wide degree that we can get nerfed to less than half our current performance and it would still satisfy the game's criteria and the developer's criteria of what a successful mission completion state is.

In lieu of this, to what end do they want more power when they have nowhere and nothing to use it on? Might as well turn on autogib/one-shot mode at this stage.

I think maybe you are talking more about concrete dps numbers?

My posting was more about the general conflict of contrasting player preferences globally speaking.

Some are into lore and roleplaying, some like pvp, some are casual etc. etc.

So if you make the game easy and 'mainstream', you push the hardcore crowd out and vice versa. I am not advocating either or trying to be derogative. Simply putting out that, that is the problem in trying to sell a product.

That I brought 2 of the direct opposite consumer types, those that exclusive items and those that only want the same as everyone else, as an example of how you can't make somthing for everyone.

Maybe if you crap equally on everyone, a community - can - come together in being equally angry with the developers lol...