Removal of multiple spell spells.

[BDMblue]

Basically this. Wisps 2 is an example of one. You don’t need to have 3 skills on top of each other that all do the same thing combine them.

Take every single skill like this in your game and streamline it to be funner to use.

Ivaras arrows take the change quiver out just make the arrow do something different depending on what it hits.

Grendel just consumes one of each type of buff with 1 click. 

Titania just spawns 4 small wisps that infect 4 targets 1 with each buff type. Please all her abilities are basically the same.

the new frame. Just do all 3 things at once on a cast and up the mana cost.

please it’s dumb to have to click and hold click and hold click and hold to find the one ability you want to use and you just won’t be bothered to use the other ones.

 

this select abilities works on 2 frames. Chroma and Khora, because they are pet AI and an elemental type. That’s great for this the rest of the frames it’s a mistake and is a bother to use.

[LucianDeRomeo]

46 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

Just do all 3 things at once on a cast and up the mana cost.

....Do you even know what 3 effects 'the new frames' 3 does? Your suggestion makes 0 sense, same with Ivara's quiver being dependent on the target. While I agree there should be a better way to handle them your suggestions definitely don't make things any better.

[xXRampantXx]

Okay but how about this alternative: no. 

Out of the abilities you mentioned the only one that might even slightly work for is Wisp's, and even that one would only be made worse by this change.

[BDMblue]

You 2 make 0 senses at all. Right now you can stack the new frames abilities right now. Your acting like you can’t. If you hate combing 2 of the abilities a hold to cast is fine sure but that’s it. 

 

 Wisp is not better? K should I just flat out record my gameplay for the next 3 months and highlight every single wisp I see? Do you want to see all 3 buffs stacked on top of each other every single time I see one? Do I have to show you that?

 

K fine. Let’s take a look at players playing frames then and look at overlapping spells. If we see a pattern that only 1 is used and it’s vary rarely swapped would that show it’s not perfect?

that or would it be a problem if they are all used 1 by 1 Would that be a problem? Would the way you play these frames be a problem do you really swap the skills over and over again each game you play with these frames and if you do is that just because all the skills are buffs?

 

Ivara is like easiest to see how it would work what do I even say. Hit enemies sleep, hit frame floor invis, hit wall tether, the other one forget it who cares hold to cast. Why is this so bad and not just easier to use?

 

 

Honestly come up with your own idea to fix it because you know as much as I do the current system does not work.

[xXRampantXx]

2 hours ago, BDMblue said:

Wisp is not better? K should I just flat out record my gameplay for the next 3 months and highlight every single wisp I see? Do you want to see all 3 buffs stacked on top of each other every single time I see one? Do I have to show you that?

By all means, show me all the wisp players you play with who, based off of you're description are playing her pretty poorly.  Just because they don't know what they're doing doesn't change how completely wrong you are.

2 hours ago, BDMblue said:

Ivara is like easiest to see how it would work what do I even say. Hit enemies sleep, hit frame floor invis, hit wall tether, the other one forget it who cares hold to cast. Why is this so bad and not just easier to use?

That's... such a unbelievably S#&$ty way for that to work that it's not even worth more of a response.

2 hours ago, BDMblue said:

Honestly come up with your own idea to fix it because you know as much as I do the current system does not work.

I certainly know nothing of the sort.  neither I, nor any of the several people I showed you're thread to and asked the opinions of, have ever had any issue with the way things worked now, and we generally agreed that the ideas you proposed would only be to the detriment of the 'Frames in question.  I don't need to "come up with an idea to fix it" because there's nothing to fix, they're all fine as they are. 

Maybe you should realize that these supposed "problems" aren't problems at all, and are just personal dislikes of yours  and not indicative of everyone who plays.

[BDMblue]

1 hour ago, xXRampantXx said:

By all means, show me all the wisp players you play with who, based off of you're description are playing her pretty poorly.  Just because they don't know what they're doing doesn't change how completely wrong you are.

That's... such a unbelievably S#&$ty way for that to work that it's not even worth more of a response.

I certainly know nothing of the sort.  neither I, nor any of the several people I showed you're thread to and asked the opinions of, have ever had any issue with the way things worked now, and we generally agreed that the ideas you proposed would only be to the detriment of the 'Frames in question.  I don't need to "come up with an idea to fix it" because there's nothing to fix, they're all fine as they are. 

Maybe you should realize that these supposed "problems" aren't problems at all, and are just personal dislikes of yours  and not indicative of everyone who plays.

Sorry I should have dismissed your response at the wisp 2 ability bing split up into 3 different spells is good part.

Ive played games for a long long time and you always no matter what the game has for mechanics people diehard defend it. I’m sure you diehard defended movement 1.0, old status, ext. At some point you just ignore the people who hate change and know they just come around after and defend the next version just as hard from change.

[xombob89]

Wouldnt work on MOST frames actually without significant changes to their function (energy cost, stats). 

If wisps motes would be single cast for all three buffs, shouldn't the energy cost also triple OR the buffs be nerfed a lot? Also you can have 6 motes out but with this change you could only have 2 unless - again - nerfed. 

Then theres frames like Vauban and Xaku who have entirely different skills on the wheel. 

In case of Ivara I do see your point but personally I would just accidentally shoot wires when trying to cloak etc if it was changed the way you propose. If such change would be made it should be optional (a setting in options). 

Perhaps they should just let us bind those skills to a key, might solve some problems where you mostly use only one skill for example. 

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, BDMblue said:

Sorry I should have dismissed your response at the wisp 2 ability bing split up into 3 different spells is good part.

Wisp produces a total of -six- reservoirs that each carry a -very powerful- buff, with each reservoir costing only -25- energy. 

That's three different aspects that would be nerfed to compensate for what you are suggesting. 

Keep in mind that the reservoirs are also anchors for Wisp to teleport to, and they empower her and her mirage's Breach Surge. Having fewer would reduce her coverage area.

If it costs 75 to deploy instead of 25, it would massively hit negative efficiency builds, hurt her energy economy, and might end up unusable in low energy sorties.

And no one wants those buffs nerfed.

No one likes the cycle-and-cast wheel either, but this is the worst possible solution, requiring the most dev work to implement while kicking as many people as possible in the shins.

DE should experiment with a drop-down style cast selection. In Wisp's case: 1 to replace abilities 1-3 with the individual reservoirs for 1 second, or until one of the three buttons is pressed.

[BDMblue]

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Wisp produces a total of -six- reservoirs that each carry a -very powerful- buff, with each reservoir costing only -25- energy. 

That's three different aspects that would be nerfed to compensate for what you are suggesting. 

Keep in mind that the reservoirs are also anchors for Wisp to teleport to, and they empower her and her mirage's Breach Surge. Having fewer would reduce her coverage area.

If it costs 75 to deploy instead of 25, it would massively hit negative efficiency builds, hurt her energy economy, and might end up unusable in low energy sorties.

And no one wants those buffs nerfed.

No one likes the cycle-and-cast wheel either, but this is the worst possible solution, requiring the most dev work to implement while kicking as many people as possible in the shins.

DE should experiment with a drop-down style cast selection. In Wisp's case: 1 to replace abilities 1-3 with the individual reservoirs for 1 second, or until one of the three buttons is pressed.

Interesting. Though I did not say to up the mana cost. A middle ground of 3 wisp things(whatever) won’t break the game. Though not much wisps use her 3 to tp, but yes it is part of her kit. 

What I am asking for is DE to look at all skills like this and try to remove them. They are basically an attempt to hide a menu system put into missions. They are S#&$ to use and most of us pick a single skill out of the bunch and use it only (unless it’s a buff)(or titaina because the buffs are just such a pain to do).

 

also Titania why is every skill but her 4 a look at guy and cast. Can we change how these skills work. Look at guy casts are already the most painful abilities and she has 6 of them. 

[Althaline]

So, your complaint about the multi-ability abilities is that they're "not fun" and could be improved by randomly producing one of the effects depending on what the ability hits? That sounds like a downgrade to me (the only ability that would work for is Titania's 2, and they already changed that so that it doesn't work that way anymore). You want these abilities removed because you don't like them, but you've given no reason why your system would be, as you put it, "funner". If you'd said something about every new frame having at least 3 more abilities than the old ones, maybe I'd be more on board, but as it stands I see no reason for your suggestion to go through.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

If it costs 75 to deploy instead of 25, it would massively hit negative efficiency builds, hurt her energy economy, and might end up unusable in low energy sorties.

Now imagine 225 energy cost of Xaku's the Lost. *brings 2-3 Primed flow at once* 🤯

 

3 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Wouldnt work on MOST frames actually without significant changes to their function (energy cost, stats).

In case of Ivara I do see your point but personally I would just accidentally shoot wires when trying to cloak etc if it was changed the way you propose. If such change would be made it should be optional (a setting in options). 

The Dashwire would be bad. I use Dashwire on every surface. After the change I would have to shoot at floors only.

3 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Then theres frames like Vauban and Xaku who have entirely different skills on the wheel. 

That would require another approaches (that could work together):

- Join some (not all!) abilities into one. This would require some work. For example in case of Ivara you can have Sleep-Noice arrow - you shoot arrow that lure enemies within Y radius and made them sleep in X radius.
- Move abilities into other ability as sub-ability. For example Ivara's invisibility could be on 3rd button. Hold to cast on self (like prowl, with energy drain) and tap to cast time based.

For more complex example: Xaku.
You can move the Deny (void beam) as 1st-tap and Xata's whisper as hold. Xata's whisper have enough duration to forget about it and the Deny could use faster execution (simply tapping a key is faster) and less energy.
This will make the Accuse & the Gaze as tap&hold abilities.
I heard about joining the Gaze with the Accuse as well.

 

However we have "problems":
- certain frames have "lore" behind it (e.g. Xaku's the Lost)
- Helminth: you cannot just simply remove certain abilities

[xombob89]

Actually there was a good idea by someone else a while back that instead of this "press or hold" thing we would have an ability wheel where we select which ability is ACTIVE at the time, and when you press the button once it would activate that ability. Then, if we wanted to do another ability we'd have to first select it from the wheel so it replaces the other one. 

To clarify, it doesnt cast the ability when you select it from the wheel, it just replaces whatever you had on the hotbar so you can tap to cast it from then on until you change it again. Hope you understand Im bad at explaining this lol.

(this might make it slower for something like wisp though but would work well for Ivara, Vauban, Chroma and Xaku I think)

[quxier]

57 minutes ago, xombob89 said:

Actually there was a good idea by someone else a while back that instead of this "press or hold" thing we would have an ability wheel where we select which ability is ACTIVE at the time, and when you press the button once it would activate that ability. Then, if we wanted to do another ability we'd have to first select it from the wheel so it replaces the other one. 

To clarify, it doesnt cast the ability when you select it from the wheel, it just replaces whatever you had on the hotbar so you can tap to cast it from then on until you change it again. Hope you understand Im bad at explaining this lol.

(this might make it slower for something like wisp though but would work well for Ivara, Vauban, Chroma and Xaku I think)

How this is different than current system? I don't see any difference. With current system you are doing the same. Tap* X times to change an ability and hold* to activate it.

* it could be reversed

[xXRampantXx]

9 hours ago, BDMblue said:

Ive played games for a long long time and you always no matter what the game has for mechanics people diehard defend it. I’m sure you diehard defended movement 1.0, old status, ext. At some point you just ignore the people who hate change and know they just come around after and defend the next version just as hard from change.

Ah, I see, so you've been reduced to juvenile insults.  Guess that really shouldn't shock me.

I was among the people vehemently calling for reworks to movement back in the day, and I'd honestly live to see more changes happen now, so your entire interpretation of me as someone who "hates change" is meaningless.  What I do hate, with a burning passion, is when people take perfectly good "Frames, like say Wisp or Ivara, Claim that mechanics that work extremely well are somehow some king of objectively bad design, and try to completely ruin their mechanics with some dumb-as-rocks BS change to powers that work infinitely better in their current state than is the completely worthless and meaningless way that one single person (read: you and NO ONE ELSE) wants them to work.

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, xXRampantXx said:

Ah, I see, so you've been reduced to juvenile insults.  Guess that really shouldn't shock me.

I was among the people vehemently calling for reworks to movement back in the day, and I'd honestly live to see more changes happen now, so your entire interpretation of me as someone who "hates change" is meaningless.  What I do hate, with a burning passion, is when people take perfectly good "Frames, like say Wisp or Ivara, Claim that mechanics that work extremely well are somehow some king of objectively bad design, and try to completely ruin their mechanics with some dumb-as-rocks BS change to powers that work infinitely better in their current state than is the completely worthless and meaningless way that one single person (read: you and NO ONE ELSE) wants them to work.

I come speaking in the context of Ivara.

On the one hand, yes, this suggested change is absolutely terrible. I've stuck cloak to enemies and even walls at times. Trying to stick enemies just to get the sleep effect would be abysmal. Selecting and using reliable arrows is a thousand times better, and that's what we already have.

But, on the other hand, I'd be remiss to not point out that Ivara and Wisp are incomparable when it comes to design quality. Ivara's scraping together functionality in spite of the bad design, and has desperately needed quality of life improvements for a long, long time. Pretty much everything in the kit, augments included, is low-balled or has a needless caveat to actual usage.. if not a multitude of needless caveats, looking at you, Prowl.
By comparison, Wisp is incredibly broken and amazing at all things she's equipped to do. It says a lot when her still pretty damn good ultimate is considered the worst part of the kit.

[xXRampantXx]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I come speaking in the context of Ivara.

On the one hand, yes, this suggested change is absolutely terrible. I've stuck cloak to enemies and even walls at times. Trying to stick enemies just to get the sleep effect would be abysmal. Selecting and using reliable arrows is a thousand times better, and that's what we already have.

But, on the other hand, I'd be remiss to not point out that Ivara and Wisp are incomparable when it comes to design quality. Ivara's scraping together functionality in spite of the bad design, and has desperately needed quality of life improvements for a long, long time. Pretty much everything in the kit, augments included, is low-balled or has a needless caveat to actual usage.. if not a multitude of needless caveats, looking at you, Prowl.
By comparison, Wisp is incredibly broken and amazing at all things she's equipped to do. It says a lot when her still pretty damn good ultimate is considered the worst part of the kit.

You make a fair point, but Ivara not being the best 'Frame out there doesn't change the fact that the proposed changes would completely ruin her mechanically, and in that one, admittedly very narrow, case, she is to a degree the same as Wisp.  Honestly, I really only latched on to those two because they're the ones I enjoy playing.  While I think the changes would be just as damaging to Grendel and Titania, I don't really care for either one, and don't much care if they're ruined, but seeing this guy trying to take away what makes two of my (despite their wildly different levels of practicality) favorites fun had me in a bit of a mood.

[BDMblue]

Never thought some one would fight so hard to keep a menu system in the game. Better keep the messy S#&$ system because one time you did that 1 thing that 1 time.

Removal of the menu is going to benefit gameplay just is. It won’t ruin the frame because if it came out the way I'm saying or better and swapped to a menu you would see how S#&$ty menus are in the middle of combat.

What I see is a wall you want menus because that 1 time out of 100 you want to use that ability that 1 way. I can’t argue with that. Though saying it ruins the frame is just a lie. It would make the ability way more effective and fast to use in almost all cases.

 

Menus don’t fit I know it you know it. When the enemy’s are level 600 you won’t really be looking in your menu for that 1 skill so you can fire that 1 arrow at that 1 guy that 1 way. Same with the rest of the menu frames.

Well anyway I have to now wait a month or 2 to repost this idea because DE looking in this mess of a thread is going to ignore it. Just do me a favour and think how these skills would be if it was more snappy and fast to cast all the parts. How to implement this and make it a better experience then shifting through a menu.

[SpringRocker]

21 hours ago, BDMblue said:

Ivaras arrows take the change quiver out just make the arrow do something different depending on what it hits.

 

20 hours ago, BDMblue said:

Ivara is like easiest to see how it would work what do I even say. Hit enemies sleep, hit frame floor invis, hit wall tether, the other one forget it who cares hold to cast. Why is this so bad and not just easier to use?

You've put zero thought into this.

• Most of the time when someone is using sleep arrows they're shooting the floor.
• Not all wall hits are people wanting to use a zip line, sometimes you want to use a cloak or sleep (not to mention that if you had your way then missing a sleep means random tethers everywhere).
• Sometimes someone wants to boost another frame's damage and shift aggro from them by setting up cloak pockets near the enemies.

You want to wreck a frame just because you don't like it? That's basically what it sounds like. If you even bothered to learn how she works you'd know that she able to shoot quiver arrows without needing to hold down the button (funny how you didn't talk about that at all).

[BDMblue]

36 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

 

You've put zero thought into this.

• Most of the time when someone is using sleep arrows they're shooting the floor.
• Not all wall hits are people wanting to use a zip line, sometimes you want to use a cloak or sleep (not to mention that if you had your way then missing a sleep means random tethers everywhere).
• Sometimes someone wants to boost another frame's damage and shift aggro from them by setting up cloak pockets near the enemies.

You want to wreck a frame just because you don't like it? That's basically what it sounds like. If you even bothered to learn how she works you'd know that she able to shoot quiver arrows without needing to hold down the button (funny how you didn't talk about that at all).

Got to ask. Why are you talking about holding the button down? Where is this coming from?

 

on that you have 0 ideas how to streamline the ability just bash my idea and not change it. Honestly wtf man.  I can fix a few problems you just said with out much thought all you do is bash. 

The complaints in this thread don’t address the S#&$ system on menus they look at a fast idea for a fix and just try to S#&$ on it like it’s a fix Ivara frame thread it’s not.

You want to fire at the floor and sleep fine combine sleep and cloak god the brain power to do that... No just bash a small part of the thread not even the main concept... 

2 months come back I’ll post again the removal of menus from gameplay see you then man.

[SpringRocker]

14 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

Got to ask. Why are you talking about holding the button down? Where is this coming from?

 

on that you have 0 ideas how to streamline the ability just bash my idea and not change it. Honestly wtf man.  I can fix a few problems you just said with out much thought all you do is bash.

 

23 hours ago, BDMblue said:

please it’s dumb to have to click and hold click and hold click and hold to find the one ability you want to use and you just won’t be bothered to use the other ones.

You're literally talking changing a whole ability because you think it's dumb to hold a button to use it.

 

Do you even read your own posts? The ability is fine, you can even tap a button to cast it instead of holding it. Instead you'd rather change a while frame, without understanding it, because you think it's dumb.

[BDMblue]

4 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

 

You're literally talking changing a whole ability because you think it's dumb to hold a button to use it.

 

Do you even read your own posts? The ability is fine, you can even tap a button to cast it instead of holding it. Instead you'd rather change a while frame, without understanding it, because you think it's dumb.

To change the type of spell a spell with multiple spells uses you have to hold down the button. To cast is click to change it is to hold... I hope this clears it up.

[SpringRocker]

7 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

To change the type of spell a spell with multiple spells uses you have to hold down the button. To cast is click to change it is to hold... I hope this clears it up.

Umm... To cycle you press the button, to use you hold the button.

In Ivara's case she can cast via tapping rather than holding. There's no reason to go through your whole list of all wall hits are ziplines, all enemies are sleep, and all floors are cloaks; that's just stupid.

[Colyeses]

27 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

To change the type of spell a spell with multiple spells uses you have to hold down the button. To cast is click to change it is to hold... I hope this clears it up.

That means you flipped it. Default is tap to cycle, hold to cast, but there's a menu option for inverting those two. You have that option engaged.

54 minutes ago, BDMblue said:

The complaints in this thread don’t address the S#&$ system on menus they look at a fast idea for a fix and just try to S#&$ on it like it’s a fix Ivara frame thread it’s not.

People are '****ting on it' because it's not a good idea. People are picking apart Ivara because she's the best example of -why- it is a bad idea. Some abilities have drastically different functions and would require a rewrite of the ability, whereas changes to the control scheme (Like the drop-down function) would be easier to implement universally without impacting the game too much. 

I mean, we don't even know if the game can correctly identify the difference between a wall and a floor. It's easy for you and me to tell that difference on an inorganic tileset, but what about the caverns of Deimos? When you're running down tube-like hallways, where does the floor stop, and where does the wall begin? It's possible that DE would have to fill out a mesh for all tilesets in order to support the proposed idea, when it's probably easier to use the drop-down menu.

7 hours ago, xXRampantXx said:

What I do hate, with a burning passion, is when people take perfectly good "Frames, like say Wisp or Ivara, Claim that mechanics that work extremely well are somehow some king of objectively bad design

I will say that the cycle system has its strong drawbacks. On Vauban, for example, I practically never use Overdriver, despite it being a perfectly good ability, because I can't be arsed to navigate the cycle menu. It needs improving, OP is definitely right about that, but the suggestions made by OP are extremely intrusive and detrimental to the overall warframe.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

My suggestion:

Make the ability dependent on the weapon equipped on time of cast.

In the case of Vauban:

Primary - Tether

Secondary - Flechette

Melee - Over Driver

[NinjaZeku]

Just gonna copy/paste my thoughts on cycle abilities from previous topics:

Xaku could split up "The Lost" over both their 2 and 3, like this:

2 - Tap for Accuse, Hold for Grasp (both are AoE enemy manipulation that add firepower to your side)
3 - Tap for Deny, Hold for Gaze (both are enemy-targeted and can remove defensive capabilities)

For Booben, something like this would allow much more fluid ability usage I think:

1 - Tether Coil / Tesla Nervos (you always charge Tesla to full anyways, the Augment working on tethered enemies seems fine)
2 - Overdriver / Vector Pad (now VP is out of the way until it's buffed / replaced lol)
3 - Flechette Orb / Orbital Strike (BTW, if used while aiming, give the OS throw a bit more oomph so it can reach further)
4 - Bastille / Vortex (same enhanced range / speed while aiming might be nice here ... or Hek, just give that to everything, actually)

Limited CC, buffs, damage, mass CC, all grouped together and overall more easily accessible, just seems so much neater.

Wisp, instead of going Hold - Tap - Hold - Tap - Hold to deploy all the Motes one after another
could have that happen a bit more smoothly, like, if you keep holding 1 for a certain amount of time (like, 0.5 seconds)
after deploying a Mote, it automatically switches to and deploys the next Mote, and repeat.

This would be especially useful / convenient for more mobile missions, i.e. casting while on the move.

Ivara I guess makes thematic sense enough, it's a quiver of trick arrows you're cycling through

... but still, further customization options of any kind would be nice.

That said, the TC's ideas for how to "improve" Ivara I very much am against, also.

17 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

My suggestion:

Make the ability dependent on the weapon equipped on time of cast.

In the case of Vauban:

Primary - Tether

Secondary - Flechette

Melee - Over Driver

Ignoring how you seem to have completely ignored Vector Pad (I can't blame you lol),
this would mean running without a full set of weapons (Sorties, special Alerts, focused leveling)
makes you have only limited access to his abilities all of a sudden, which is ... no thanks.