Critical Surge Wisp Augment Feedback

[-LOF--Pogo]

Quick Feedback for the Critical Surge Wisp augment regarding both simulacrum tests and in-mission gameplay:

The augment is very strong under the following conditions: You (1) have a Sniper with (2) high crit chance, and you (3) shoot an enemy that can be affected with the slash status effect.

Condition 1 and 2 bind a player to the Rubico Prime and the Vectis Prime over other snipers. Condition 3 binds players to enemies that are neither entirely nor mostly status immune.

 

There are two core issues with the augment:

The first of them is that the augment is exclusive to sniper rifles. There are not many sniper rifles in the game, and as such, the augment is being pushed into niche use builds. Making it apply to Primaries in general - maybe at different rates of effectiveness depending on the weapon type - would broaden its usability. 

The second of them is that this augment has a hard limit at 350% extra multiplicative crit chance regardless of travel distance and power strength. Now, this limit makes sense because without it, snipers like the Rubico Prime could achieve ludicrous crit chance values that would probably trivialize way too many parts of the game. But that hard limit is a suboptimal design choice...

 

Proposed augment changes:

Instead of a hard limit on a high multiplicative crit chance buff, the augment should give a low additive critical chance buff where the travel distance to crit chance conversion unlimitedly scales with power strength, however past a certain range, the travel range wont grant any additional benefits.

Now, what good would that do?

Firstly, it would allow for even benefits of the augment among all snipers.

Secondly, it would grant an actual combat stat benefit from power strength on Wisp. Currently, all that power strength does is decrease the necessary travel range for the maximum crit chance buff, which is counter-intuitive for new players and discouraging for players trying to min-max the augment, as there is no such thing as min-maxing this augment as of right now.

Thirdly, it would incentivize actively playing around the augment: Currently, having a moderate amount of additional Power strength on Wisp (say 30% for the argument's sake) will cut down the necessary travel distance by 25%. This goes on, until players dont actually need to teleport long distances between the motes for the augment to give its full effect. With a fixed maximum travel distance after which there will be no further benefits, the originally intended playstyle of the augment stays alive by rewarding players for always trying to get that highest possible travel distance teleport.

 

Reasonable deviations from this proposed augment change:

Firstly, turn the sniper buff into a general primary weapon buff, with lowered effectiveness for types other than snipers. This would keep the augment relevant even when not combined with a sniper, although not quite as useful.

Secondly, make travel distance grant diminishing returns when passing certain distance thresholds. This battles some open world shenanigans involving Wisp and Eidolons/Orbs.

Thirdly, remove the halved energy cost effect to make up for the increased broad effectiveness of the augment and to make sure power strength builds are limited by energy cost.

Fourthly, lower the base active duration of the augment to further incentivize frequent teleportation and additionally keep high power strength builds in check.

 

Final Notes:

Thanks for sticking with me until the end. To sum up this post, go watch Ievan Polkka by Bilal Göregen on YouTube, it's a great musical video.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

I play Wisp the most and I don't find this augment worth a mod slot.

Only if it becomes all primary (or any weps at all) flat amount of crit chance - I'd try to build around it with some weps. 

I would definately try to play around it if it was a TEAM buff since I play Wisp as a very good support frame. I don't care much about self buffs.

 

But even then it will stay as an exclusive Wisp augment since Helminth transfer won't let others use it (you need motes to teleport to). The solution could be.. well, a rework :D 

 

use 3 without teleportation to give everyone in range of 20m a buff - flat crit chance +15% (at 100 str) to every weapon for 30 sec. But if you teleport to a mote - it gets 50% cheaper and buff range x2 (to make sure everyone gets it).

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

Disagree. This augment currently benefits snipers with a medium crit chance the most.

You have to remember that White -> Yellow is much, much more important than Yellow -> Orange and onwards. The latter is only a ~2x scalar per tier. The former is modded crit damage (almost certainly higher than 2x) and a further potential 2x multiplier after that courtesy of Headcrit.

If this buff is enough to make some snipers hit the always-critting threshold where they otherwise wouldn't, that's the biggest luxury a precision weapon can ask for. Nothing is worse than doing 90% less damage because RNG said that well-aimed shot was a white dud.

 

Additive crit is also a risky business. Strictly speaking, it's a design-breaking statistic. We've all seen the Nukor memes of past and present, tapping into that absurd multiplier to make something ludicrous when its niche was more oriented towards status than damage scaling - and damage statuses also benefitting from said crit exacerbate the 'break'.

 

Also, reminder that Wisp is already an incredibly potent frame. She can't have globally strong augments on top of that unless you want to see her pay the price of balance down the line. It has to be niche. In fact, you could say the augment's biggest strength is in the extra efficiency for Breach Surge casts, and the sniper crit is an added niche bonus just because an augment has to have something that raises with ranks.

[-LOF--Pogo]

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

This augment currently benefits snipers with a medium crit chance the most.

Yes and no. In terms of consistency, it does. I saw it with the Komorex: Suddenly you dont have those measly 40% crit chance, you're rocking a reliable 90-something percent crit chance, so your weapon feels unlocked, it can do what it's supposed to. But that doesnt mean the augment benefits snipers with medium crit chance the most. It brings them to viability, yes. But it boosts an already viable sniper through the roof with damage.

Now, imagine having an additive 40% crit chance buff. Leave out all ideas of power strength and travel distance - we assume you just casted your 3 on a "far away" mote with a "decent" amount of power strength on your Wisp, and you got a 40% flat crit chance buff for your sniper. Now, if that sniper is a Komorex - good stuff! It's basically the same as the current multiplicative crit chance, because you go from 40% Komorex crit chance (with Point Strike) to 80% Komorex crit chance. For a Rubico Prime, this wouldnt mean too much. And this refers back to another statement of yours, one which is entirely correct:

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

White -> Yellow is much, much more important than Yellow -> Orange and onwards

Exactly so! And additive crit chance does a much better job at pushing you towards yellow and slightly past that. That is exactly why I argue for additive crit chance over multiplicative crit chance: it helps push those low to medium crit chance snipers to viability, but doesnt do much for those high crit chance snipers.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Additive crit is also a risky business. Strictly speaking, it's a design-breaking statistic. We've all seen the Nukor memes of past and present

Yes, Nukor-style weapons can be risky. But we both know the reason why they are risky:

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

tapping into that absurd multiplier

From a design perspective, I dont think a 1% crit chance weapon should have a 3.0x crit multiplier (looking at the new Sporothrix sniper rifle). But even so, having a 40% flat crit chance buff would not break this weapon - not completely at least - because the weapon cannot utilize Point strike, and a 41% crit chance value will definitely leave you with a lot of those white duds that you refered to.

Now, you also make a point how those types of weapon then come to benefit from status effects like Slash, Toxin, Heat and Electricity that directly scale from crit damage. True, that's an issue. But the problem here is not the concept of additive crit chance. I think the issue is designing weapons that are okay without additive crit chance, but turbo broken with additive crit chance. I will quote the reaction that a friend of mine had when seeing the Sporothrix stats: "Why are Harrow weapons a type of weapon that exists." I am having a hard time answering that rhetorical question.

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Also, reminder that Wisp is already an incredibly potent frame. She can't have globally strong augments on top of that unless you want to see her pay the price of balance down the line.

Yes. That is why I put several ideas of balancing out the augment into my post. Namely: Increasing the necessary travel distance for maximum crit by a HUGE amount. Decreasing the travel-distance-to-crit-chance conversion rate. Decreasing the base duration of the augment to make those pure strength meme builds ineffective in actual gameplay. Removing the halved energy cost upon teleporting to a mote to also make those pure strength meme builds ineffective in actual gameplay.

You need to remember that this augment is already very strong as it is now. For the measly price of basically 100% power strength and one mod slot, you can have a Rubico Prime that now annihilates any normal enemy it sees in one bullet. On any level, including the max level. I dont think that needs to be the case. I dont argue for a globally strong augment. I argue for an augment that doesnt have a niche of 5-6 weapons among hundreds of others, but instead provides unique gameplay and then rewards the player for adhering to its unique gameplay. It doesnt need to annihilate enemies. It should make weapons a little more worth using, a little more enjoyable overall. That is all I think the augment should do.

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

In fact, you could say the augment's biggest strength is in the extra efficiency for Breach Surge casts,

That is true, and that's what makes me sad. So we get a Wisp augment, but all it does is grant halved energy cost upon teleporting to a mote. I would do that anyways. Where is the new gameplay? Now, from a power perspective: Imagine Wisp's 3 couldnt teleport to motes, and this augment would now allow teleporting to motes and then double the 3 range. So basically: We make the augment do what Wisp can already do right now. Then, it would be a good augment! It would take an ability and give it an interesting new catch, something you can play around in your missions. That's a good augment. Granting you halved energy cost is a boring, pseudo-interactive augment. Even if it's strong - say it completely removed all energy cost or even granted you energy - it would still be a boring augment.

 

All in all, I respect your criticism and you bring some very valid points to the table, most notably the Nukor argument as well as the argument that Wisp is too potent as is to get a very strong augment. However, I disagree on your implicit statement that the augment is good as it is based on the arguments brought forth. Your main argument was that it does the most for medium tier snipers. I disproved that both by showing that while it does do a lot for medium crit chance snipers, it does even more for high crit chance snipers, as well as by showing that additive crit chance would similarly benefit medium crit chance snipers while not providing high crit chance snipers with the overwhelming strength it currently grants.

 

I hope I explained all my responses to you reasonably, sufficiently, and in a manner that is not impossible to understand, and I wish you a nice day! Thank you for taking the time to both read my post and for taking the time to also respond to it! I appreciate that a lot!

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, -LOF--Pogo said:

Yes and no. In terms of consistency, it does. I saw it with the Komorex: Suddenly you dont have those measly 40% crit chance, you're rocking a reliable 90-something percent crit chance, so your weapon feels unlocked, it can do what it's supposed to. But that doesnt mean the augment benefits snipers with medium crit chance the most. It brings them to viability, yes. But it boosts an already viable sniper through the roof with damage.

Now, imagine having an additive 40% crit chance buff. Leave out all ideas of power strength and travel distance - we assume you just casted your 3 on a "far away" mote with a "decent" amount of power strength on your Wisp, and you got a 40% flat crit chance buff for your sniper. Now, if that sniper is a Komorex - good stuff! It's basically the same as the current multiplicative crit chance, because you go from 40% Komorex crit chance (with Point Strike) to 80% Komorex crit chance. For a Rubico Prime, this wouldnt mean too much. And this refers back to another statement of yours, one which is entirely correct:

Exactly so! And additive crit chance does a much better job at pushing you towards yellow and slightly past that. That is exactly why I argue for additive crit chance over multiplicative crit chance: it helps push those low to medium crit chance snipers to viability, but doesnt do much for those high crit chance snipers.

It's a fair debate, but I'm not sure I'd call the Komorex a 'mid' sniper. With only 16% to start from, I'd rather call it low-crit (but not quite so low as to be functionally non-crit). 20-25 is probably more of a mid-range.

Ran some numbers and depending on other modding involved, I see the Rubico Prime getting ~50%-60% more benefit from 350% base-multiplicative crit chance.
Comparing this to a 40% additive, assuming at least Point Strike and Vital Sense are also present, the advantage isn't overturned, but does drop to ~10%. Notably, this one is still a lesser net Crit Chance bonus for the Komorix (and any other 12% crit base or higher).

Still though, numerical advantages of the mod aren't really what I was getting at. It's the reliability, more specifically the delta between min/max. For snipers in particular, in my opinion, this is much more important than squeezing out a little more DPS. The bottom line matters more. A maximum of two unlucky shots to finish the job beats ten, even if it's highly unlikely to go the full run of that bad luck.

 

It's debatable between option A (multiplicative) which adds somewhat more on-paper to a high-base weapon (to a magnitude depending heavily on all the variables involved - base values and Rivens alike) but makes the lower-base weapon better reliable, and option B (additive) which adds only marginally more on paper to high-base, but brings with it the collateral of also elevating 'non-crit' weapons to a crit-functional economy.

There aren't typically non-crit snipers in particular, though, so this is a bit less of a given than for the wider swath of weapons across other categories (as per suggesting the augment apply globally). I haven't had the chance to try the Sporothrix yet to see how it fares as a 'status sniper' and how that might translate with externally-forced crit.

Setting aside which cause we're basing our judgements of 'being better' upon, we seem to mainly disagree on whether it hurts for the higher crit Snipers to benefit from the mod as effectively per this quote,

14 minutes ago, -LOF--Pogo said:

You need to remember that this augment is already very strong as it is now. For the measly price of basically 100% power strength and one mod slot, you can have a Rubico Prime that now annihilates any normal enemy it sees in one bullet. On any level, including the max level. I dont think that needs to be the case.

As much as DE love to lay reductions to riven disposition for snipers, I don't realistically think it's necessary to do so. It's a tool for a purpose, being unwieldy against groups in favour of making sure the singular target is dead, let it serve that purpose. The devs can always make more situations favouring the lower/group damage categories. Even in a boss fight. Hypothetical example, requiring many targets of low individual health to be knocked out to progress makes a sniper a poor choice for that encounter.

Plus, I see my own Rubico Prime woefully fail to kill some Steel Path Grineer even with its triple-stat Riven benefits against them and matching the damage type it needs to handle armour. That's just sad.

 

14 minutes ago, -LOF--Pogo said:

That is true, and that's what makes me sad. So we get a Wisp augment, but all it does is grant halved energy cost upon teleporting to a mote. I would do that anyways. Where is the new gameplay? Now, from a power perspective: Imagine Wisp's 3 couldnt teleport to motes, and this augment would now allow teleporting to motes and then double the 3 range. So basically: We make the augment do what Wisp can already do right now. Then, it would be a good augment! It would take an ability and give it an interesting new catch, something you can play around in your missions. That's a good augment. Granting you halved energy cost is a boring, pseudo-interactive augment. Even if it's strong - say it completely removed all energy cost or even granted you energy - it would still be a boring augment.

It may be boring, but so are lots of augments. Some of them are even total wastes of slot when they are changing things, but I'll not digress into those personal gripes. Breaking efficiency cap, or double-dipping on efficiency modifiers, is still quite a luxury. I imagine for Wisps with inefficient builds, the augment would go a long way; Motes don't typically need to be placed often and repeatedly, leaving Breach probably the bulk of energy costs in situations that need that extra scaling.

 

1 hour ago, -LOF--Pogo said:

Yes, Nukor-style weapons can be risky. But we both know the reason why they are risky:

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

tapping into that absurd multiplier

From a design perspective, I dont think a 1% crit chance weapon should have a 3.0x crit multiplier (looking at the new Sporothrix sniper rifle). But even so, having a 40% flat crit chance buff would not break this weapon - not completely at least - because the weapon cannot utilize Point strike, and a 41% crit chance value will definitely leave you with a lot of those white duds that you refered to.

Now, you also make a point how those types of weapon then come to benefit from status effects like Slash, Toxin, Heat and Electricity that directly scale from crit damage. True, that's an issue. But the problem here is not the concept of additive crit chance. I think the issue is designing weapons that are okay without additive crit chance, but turbo broken with additive crit chance. I will quote the reaction that a friend of mine had when seeing the Sporothrix stats: "Why are Harrow weapons a type of weapon that exists." I am having a hard time answering that rhetorical question.

You can answer that question by flipping the 'equation': Why do "Harrow weapons" exist? The weapons simply are, likely status-oriented weapons regardless of relative power balance - but additive crit exists around them, of which Harrow is the most obvious example (but also other things like Arcane Avenger and Kavats).

The additive crit is the problem, due to being a static factor. Everything else has to be judged around that immutable influence.

Even without having above-average multipliers, infusing crit onto weapons that don't naturally scale into it still adds more to them because it opens up the crit multiplier as a separate moddable variable - meaning less diminishing returns from stacking the multipliers already touched elsewhere in the build. The Nukor memes are only the most extreme of examples.

Going back to what I mentioned previously - for a precision/single-shot weapon the 'dud factor' is more important. But for anything more sustained, the effect of duds are mitigated and the paper DPS becomes more relevant. It doesn't matter much for a continuous weapon like the Nukor that 41% brings a lot of white dud ticks, so long as the sustained hold produces the better DPS in the end when the expected yellow ticks do get mixed in.

[-LOF--Pogo]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

It's debatable between option A (multiplicative) which adds somewhat more on-paper to a high-base weapon (to a magnitude depending heavily on all the variables involved - base values and Rivens alike) but makes the lower-base weapon better reliable, and option B (additive) which adds only marginally more on paper to high-base, but brings with it the collateral of also elevating 'non-crit' weapons to a crit-functional economy.

I'll agree on that, no questions asked. The numbers you ran through definitely support your view on this as much as mine.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Plus, I see my own Rubico Prime woefully fail to kill some Steel Path Grineer even with its triple-stat Riven benefits against them and matching the damage type it needs to handle armour. That's just sad.

And I very much agree, I think the state of most primaries and secondaries is best described as 'miserable'. But I think an overtuned augment or two should not be what helps primaries back to viability. I think they just deserve a rework on a scale of the most recent melee rework.

 

On the context of augments you wrote that

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Some of them are even total wastes of slot when they are changing things

And I would argue that I find that a "waste of slot but fun" augment has more justification than a "uninteractive augment that brings no gameplay change but (drastically) increases the power level of a frame", say Grendel's Super Meat Ball augment versus Wukong's Exalted Redcritter augment. Of course, this topic is a clash of personal opinions where the only important opinion is that of the DE developer team, so no point in pursuing it.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

I imagine for Wisps with inefficient builds, the augment would go a long way; Motes don't typically need to be placed often and repeatedly, leaving Breach probably the bulk of energy costs in situations that need that extra scaling.

100% agreed. I don't often run inefficient builds, but the augment goes a long way for those. But I still find it disappointing to reduce the augment to this incredibly boring, stat-focused part.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Even without having above-average multipliers, infusing crit onto weapons that don't naturally scale into it still adds more to them because it opens up the crit multiplier as a separate moddable variable - meaning less diminishing returns from stacking the multipliers already touched elsewhere in the build. The Nukor memes are only the most extreme of examples.

But why not give a weapon that isn't meant to crit a below-average crit multiplier? This would remove overpowered avenger + Kavat cases from the game but still grant a considerable benefit from running both. My opinion is that balancing a weapon around a niche case in which it is overwhelmingly strong leaves it incredibly lacklustre in the broad use cases - which will be the cases the majority of players encounter and are disappointed by. Stating that the mathematical concept of additive crit chance in this game is an issue is something I am very opposed to. But I think this is another clash of basic opinions about the game, no point continuing here. I do respect your opinion though, you put thought into it and it makes sense.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Going back to what I mentioned previously - for a precision/single-shot weapon the 'dud factor' is more important.

Yup. I think the numbers you ran show that the current iteration of the augment will do fine on all snipers in the 20-25% crit chance area, and perform too good above that area while underperforming below that area. Depending on the amount of flat crit chance we're talking about here, the additive crit chance would be better on snipers below that crit area, similarly good on that specific crit area, and worse on snipers above that area. If the additive value we're talking about here is "kinda low" (say 10-20%), then it becomes sort of an irrelevant stat that wont benefit anything. So, only within the context of sniper rifles, I would argue that a maximum of 70-90% flat crit chance should be good, while a "normal" value to get when purposely doing a long teleportation in anything that isnt an open world should be somewhere between 30% to 50%. Those values push any sniper (except for maybe the Sporothrix) into a situation where the duds wont be a factor to worry about. And if they are, to say it bluntly, then you just didnt teleport far enough or didnt have enough power strength. A little of either should then make the dud factor a thing of the past on Wisp.

So the only question that remains is: Do we want an augment that performs very well on high-crit snipers and pretty good on medium crit snipers, or do we want an augment that performs well on low- and medium-snipers but does not bring meaningful benefit to a high-crit sniper?

I think I made it fairly clear which of those I prefer, but - once again - a matter of opinion. I do like a permanently red-crit Rubico, but I'd also prefer to push other weapons - not just snipers - a little closer to viability. But as I strikingly said before, I am of the opinion that primaries need a rework. So maybe in a post-primary-rework world, I will be eating these words.

I wish you a nice day, LexiConArtist. This was a good discussion and I enjoyed learning about your well-founded perspective on the topic.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

13 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You have to remember that White -> Yellow is much, much more important than Yellow -> Orange and onwards. The latter is only a ~2x scalar per tier. The former is modded crit damage (almost certainly higher than 2x) and a further potential 2x multiplier after that courtesy of Headcrit.

I'm having trouble understanding this logic.

wouldn't having access to higher tiers of crit chance be better than simply just having access to yellow crits? or am I misinterpreting what is being said here?

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Orcus Imperium said:

I'm having trouble understanding this logic.

wouldn't having access to higher tiers of crit chance be better than simply just having access to yellow crits? or am I misinterpreting what is being said here?

For any crit damage stat above 1.5x, the difference between white and yellow is greater than the difference of any further tier.

From my understanding of the crit maths, using a simple base of 4.4x (natural 2x + Vital Sense) we have:

• White: 100% Base damage
• Yellow: 440% Base Damage (White * 4.4) literally: White + (White * (CritDMG - 1))
• Orange: 780% Base Damage (Yellow * ~1.77) literally: White + (White * (CritDMG - 1) * 2)

On top of this, when you hit a headshot you get (typically) a 2x multiplier normally. However, if you land any critical hit on a head, you get another 2x after that.

So the example, with headshots, becomes:

• White: 200% Base damage
• Yellow: 1760% Base Damage (White * 8.8)
• Orange: 3120% Base Damage (Yellow * ~1.77)

 

When you want to shoot only once or twice as with snipers, you want to be in the 'any crit' bucket. Otherwise it could be up to 5/9 shots instead of up to 2. The difference is even larger with higher crit damage stats, too.

[-LOF--Pogo]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)Orcus Imperium:

I'm having trouble understanding this logic.

wouldn't having access to higher tiers of crit chance be better than simply just having access to yellow crits?

 

What LexiCon said, basically.

 

The gist of it is: With yellow crits, you suddenly gain access to critical modifiers. This means you go from doing 1x your normal damage to doing (crit damage value)x your normal damage. That crit value can very well be 4.4x if not more. So your white to yellow damage is multiplied by your critical multiplier. But subsequently, all you do is add another (crit dmg multiplier) on top.

White --> Normal Damage

Yellow --> Normal Damage * Crit Multiplier

Orange --> Normal Damage * (Crit Multiplier * 2)

Red --> Normal Damage * (Crit Multiplier * 3)

So while you do get substantial damage increases from crit, usually you're using up too many mods for diminishing returns. It mostly makes sense investing into other multipliers once you reach yellow crits. The rule of thumb is: Use your strongest crit chance mod(s), get as much crit as those strong mods provide. Anything past that is slot inefficient so you should rather invest into other modifiers.

 

Edit: Of course, this rule of thumb doesnt apply to outside sources of crit chance. There, the rule of thumb is: Get as much crit chance and crit damage and damage and whatever else you can get. There is no real "diminishing returns" on free bonus stats.

 

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

For any crit damage stat above 1.5x, the difference between white and yellow is greater than the difference of any further tier.

From my understanding of the crit maths, using a simple base of 4.4x (natural 2x + Vital Sense) we have:

• White: 100% Base damage
• Yellow: 440% Base Damage (White * 4.4) literally: White + (White * (CritDMG - 1))
• Orange: 780% Base Damage (Yellow * ~1.77) literally: White + (White * (CritDMG - 1) * 2)

On top of this, when you hit a headshot you get (typically) a 2x multiplier normally. However, if you land any critical hit on a head, you get another 2x after that.

So the example, with headshots, becomes:

• White: 200% Base damage
• Yellow: 1760% Base Damage (White * 8.8)
• Orange: 3120% Base Damage (Yellow * ~1.77)

 

When you want to shoot only once or twice as with snipers, you want to be in the 'any crit' bucket. Otherwise it could be up to 5/9 shots instead of up to 2. The difference is even larger with higher crit damage stats, too.

 

27 minutes ago, -LOF--Pogo said:

 

What LexiCon said, basically.

 

The gist of it is: With yellow crits, you suddenly gain access to critical modifiers. This means you go from doing 1x your normal damage to doing (crit damage value)x your normal damage. That crit value can very well be 4.4x if not more. So your white to yellow damage is multiplied by your critical multiplier. But subsequently, all you do is add another (crit dmg multiplier) on top.

White --> Normal Damage

Yellow --> Normal Damage * Crit Multiplier

Orange --> Normal Damage * (Crit Multiplier * 2)

Red --> Normal Damage * (Crit Multiplier * 3)

So while you do get substantial damage increases from crit, usually you're using up too many mods for diminishing returns. It mostly makes sense investing into other multipliers once you reach yellow crits. The rule of thumb is: Use your strongest crit chance mod(s), get as much crit as those strong mods provide. Anything past that is slot inefficient so you should rather invest into other modifiers.

 

Edit: Of course, this rule of thumb doesnt apply to outside sources of crit chance. There, the rule of thumb is: Get as much crit chance and crit damage and damage and whatever else you can get. There is no real "diminishing returns" on free bonus stats.

 

thx for clearing that up.  also glad to see i'm actually doing something right on my end