Viral immunity and the new infested weapons

[Wyrmius_Prime]

Most of the new infested weapons that came in the most recent update are mostly status focused weapons with base viral damage, with some of them having only slight crit stats. All the enemies in Deimos that can actually so some damage to your warframe are all immune to viral status effects, making these new weapons totally useless in Deimos. Can we just get rid of the viral status immune enemies already?

[AltairFerenc]

Sooooooo they are useless in ONE SMALL PORTION of the game...
Viral is strong and overused be happy that deimos has enemies that are immune to it rather than being viral nerfed to the ground

[Wyrmius_Prime]

Just now, AltairFerenc said:

Sooooooo they are useless in ONE SMALL PORTION of the game...
Viral is strong and overused be happy that deimos has enemies that are immune to it rather than being viral nerfed to the ground

They are still generally bad everywhere as well, but they are completely unusable in Deimos.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Specific viral immunity has to go. It's absolutely underhanded.

Apparently DE aren't even internally on the same page about that underhanded exception; when they add health to enemies being made status 'vulnerable', most of the statuses don't even contribute relatively much, they only make status-leaning weapons not abjectly useless on those enemies.

The only ones that make a big enough difference being present at all to warrant core health changes to compensate are Slash (versus armoured targets) and Viral (which is conveniently not included in the vulnerabilities).

[Graavarg]

19 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Specific viral immunity has to go. It's absolutely underhanded.

I don't agree.

I actually think it is quite the opposite, it is really good to have enemies completely immune to 1-2 damage types. Makes us choose appropriate weapons instead of running around everywhere with the same riven-enhanced meta-build.

As to Cambion Drift, it seems logical that a place totally affected by "a plague" should have generated viral immunity in it's inhabitants. Even from an IRL biology/evolutionary viewpoint that makes perfect sense (and yes, I know it's a game 🙂, but still...).

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Graavarg:

As to Cambion Drift, it seems logical that a place totally affected by "a plague" should have generated viral immunity in it's inhabitants. Even from an IRL biology/evolutionary viewpoint that makes perfect sense (and yes, I know it's a game 🙂, but still...).

If you want to argue logic let's take it a step further though:

Your point is absolutely sound BUT then why would a faction living for who knows how long and now stuck on Deimos and generally portrayed as knowledgeable about technology and their enviroment waste time and resources to develop and build weapons that are highly ineffective against half of the local hostile elements - especially since the Tenno can get them resources from anywhere?

Regarding status immunity itself: I always find it to be a concession of developers that they can't balance their different status and cc effects unless it's relevant to not break game mechanics to have an enemy immune to certain status effects or cc (example: bosses with immunity to mind control effects). Otherwise I'm generally more in favor of resistances rather than straight up immunity for random basic enemies personally.

[TheLexiConArtist]

17 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I don't agree.

I actually think it is quite the opposite, it is really good to have enemies completely immune to 1-2 damage types. Makes us choose appropriate weapons instead of running around everywhere with the same riven-enhanced meta-build.

As to Cambion Drift, it seems logical that a place totally affected by "a plague" should have generated viral immunity in it's inhabitants. Even from an IRL biology/evolutionary viewpoint that makes perfect sense (and yes, I know it's a game 🙂, but still...).

If Viral is a problem, fix Viral. Don't say "Hey guys, you can apply status to these enemies now!" and sneakily omit the fact that you left one out, while also doing other things as if you left it in (extra health buffs).

Specific, certain few enemies with a reason and explanation could be given immunities (or better, diminished effectiveness because switching things off outright is not a good thing). It should not be blanket immunity or immunity with no reason given as is the case here. It's just underhandedness. 

[(PSN)camwyn-xenos]

Forgive my not having update yet but are not kit guns from fortuna? And most of fathers equipment was heat and impact not toxin!

[Graavarg]

50 minutes ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

Your point is absolutely sound BUT then why would a faction living for who knows how long and now stuck on Deimos and generally portrayed as knowledgeable about technology and their enviroment waste time and resources to develop and build weapons that are highly ineffective against half of the local hostile elements - especially since the Tenno can get them resources from anywhere?

Regarding status immunity itself: I always find it to be a concession of developers that they can't balance their different status and cc effects unless it's relevant to not break game mechanics to have an enemy immune to certain status effects or cc (example: bosses with immunity to mind control effects). Otherwise I'm generally more in favor of resistances rather than straight up immunity for random basic enemies personally.

I think your first point is completely valid, but only if one make the assumption that Deimos/Entrati weapons are made to be used against the "local inhabitants". However, one could also argue, just as logically, that some Deimos/Entrati weapons incorporates the local plague (in the form of viral) to be stronger against "others". Both conclusions are equally logical, both depend on the underlying assumption of what the weapons were designed for.

I consider "immunity" to be part of the balancing, just like in (a lot of) other games. Resistance is (logically) just a percentage between 0% and 100%, where the 100% value is called "immunity". But there is no special number where the value becomes "strange". 99.9% resistance would formally not be "immunity", but for all practical purposes it would function as immunity, and 76% resistance is not suddenly much more strange than 75%.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Graavarg:

I think your first point is completely valid, but only if one make the assumption that Deimos/Entrati weapons are made to be used against the "local inhabitants". However, one could also argue, just as logically, that some Deimos/Entrati weapons incorporates the local plague (in the form of viral) to be stronger against "others". Both conclusions are equally logical, both depend on the underlying assumption of what the weapons were designed for.

I consider "immunity" to be part of the balancing, just like in (a lot of) other games. Resistance is (logically) just a percentage between 0% and 100%, where the 100% value is called "immunity". But there is no special number where the value becomes "strange". 99.9% resistance would formally not be "immunity", but for all practical purposes it would function as immunity, and 76% resistance is not suddenly much more strange than 75%.

True. My assumption was based on the fact that every non-infested weapon from Deimos (Trumna etc.) is designed with mechanics to clear hordes of enemies/infested. But yupp, I assumed the Entrati would create weapons for their own enviroment. I can easily see it your way though that they designed two lines basically: their Necramech style weapons against infested (initially sentients iirc?) and the viral kitgun and infested style line against others as you said. Good points.

I suppose we disagree on immunity for basic enemies then. I'm fine with degrees of less or more effectiveness as it is the case with armor- and hp-types. But degrees of resistance that equate immunity are something I dislike as a balance practice. Although I also can see that it can add depth in games and can create situations where gear preperation becomes more important and interesting. Just not for basic enemies in Warframe. It just feels bad but isn't really a hinderance either in my opinion. It's fine though. Can't agree on everything. 

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I consider "immunity" to be part of the balancing, just like in (a lot of) other games. Resistance is (logically) just a percentage between 0% and 100%, where the 100% value is called "immunity". But there is no special number where the value becomes "strange".

That's one way to look at it.   Another way is in terms of proportionality.  While the percentage difference between doing 100 and 1000 damage is large, the percentage difference between 0 and 100 is infinitely larger.   It turns out that zero is kind of a strange number.  😉

Personally, I don't need everything in the damage system super-tidy.  If there are some infested that get special treatment versus viral procs, that's fine with me.   But I'd much prefer that special treatment take the form of reduced effectiveness rather than zero effectiveness.

[DrivaMain]

They should have take 4 Viral procs instead of 0. Resistance is better instead of complete immunity.

[NinjaZeku]

6 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

they are completely unusable in Deimos

While I agree that it's very silly to completely negate a specific proc on a large scale,
you could just ... mod those weapons for, say, Corrosive + Heat. Bam, plenty usable, right there.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

What is so bad about an enemy that is a literal walking virus having immunity to viral damage?

[Spectre-8]

Maybe the enemies will be better off with a mechanic like we have for our warframes , the Adaptation mod .

Let them stack certain resistance to a cap instead of complete immunity . Can't be hard to implement , since it's already in the game .

 

[taiiat]

i don't see the jump from A to B personally - Corpus Weapons are strong versus Armor, Grineer Weapons strong versus Corpus and also somewhat Infested.
Factions are generally making Weapons that are good versus their Enemies, not necessarily themselves.

i don't particularly agree or disagree with the request you're making, just that the justification doesn't make sense.

[Viges]

10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I don't agree.

I actually think it is quite the opposite, it is really good to have enemies completely immune to 1-2 damage types. Makes us choose appropriate weapons instead of running around everywhere with the same riven-enhanced meta-build.

As to Cambion Drift, it seems logical that a place totally affected by "a plague" should have generated viral immunity in it's inhabitants. Even from an IRL biology/evolutionary viewpoint that makes perfect sense (and yes, I know it's a game 🙂, but still...).

Like Nidus? Or Frost using cold abilities is immune to cold am I right? Yea good argument. How about consistency in the game instead. Fix viral status effect instead of using band-aids on selected enemies.

[Yamazuki]

12 hours ago, Graavarg said:

I don't agree.

I actually think it is quite the opposite, it is really good to have enemies completely immune to 1-2 damage types. Makes us choose appropriate weapons instead of running around everywhere with the same riven-enhanced meta-build.

As to Cambion Drift, it seems logical that a place totally affected by "a plague" should have generated viral immunity in it's inhabitants. Even from an IRL biology/evolutionary viewpoint that makes perfect sense (and yes, I know it's a game 🙂, but still...).

Viral immunity is more or less irrelevant unless you're playing on SP, or happen to be using a weaker weapon. Although, if the goal is diversity... then viral immunity doesn't accomplish this. 

This is also before taking into account Viral isn't even that good in all situations, Corrosive/Heat, Magentic, Toxin, or no elements at all, outperform Viral in a fair amount of situations. However, it's just like how before a lot of people only used Corrosive, it makes no real difference in 99% of situations, you just mod for the most durable unit and forget the rest. It's only weaker weapons that have to worry about swapping out of Viral against various enemies, which just encourages people to not even use these weapons.

It would just make more sense for enemies to have various status resistances (less effective), rather than outright immunity. It's not as if being immune to Viral makes an enemy durable, their armor is still either removable entirely or bypassed, and if they have non, they just die in 1 hit anyways.

[Graavarg]

1 hour ago, Yamazuki said:

Viral immunity is more or less irrelevant unless you're playing on SP, or happen to be using a weaker weapon. Although, if the goal is diversity... then viral immunity doesn't accomplish this. 

This is also before taking into account Viral isn't even that good in all situations, Corrosive/Heat, Magentic, Toxin, or no elements at all, outperform Viral in a fair amount of situations. However, it's just like how before a lot of people only used Corrosive, it makes no real difference in 99% of situations, you just mod for the most durable unit and forget the rest. It's only weaker weapons that have to worry about swapping out of Viral against various enemies, which just encourages people to not even use these weapons.

It would just make more sense for enemies to have various status resistances (less effective), rather than outright immunity. It's not as if being immune to Viral makes an enemy durable, their armor is still either removable entirely or bypassed, and if they have non, they just die in 1 hit anyways.

As I said, I think immunity is ok on principle, it is simply 100% resistance and functionally quite similar to 99.9% resistance, even if that isn't "immunity". And immunity against viral is quite logical when we are talking about inhabitants of Cambion Drift. This reasoning is not about doing damage, it is sort of a logical framework for thinking about resistance and immunity, to see if it is logically and functionally ok (which it is).

Dealing damage and using weapons is a secondary step, that is how a player analyses and solves existing resistances and immunities. What to use against different enemies is a central part of Warframe. With all the weapons, damage classes, crit & status available in the game, and the ability to select which primary, secondary and melee weapons and warframe abilities to bring every mission (including how to change & strengthen their damage components with mods) it seems a bit strange to me that some are of the opinion that it is the enemies that should be changed instead. It almost seems a bit silly.

I don't even know why this is a thing concerning Cambion Drift, any player being able to access Cambion Drift should have access to weapons, mods and warframes having other than viral damage. All they would need to do is switch weapons/mods/warframes to something that works. That can't even be very hard to do (it is sort of built in, bringing the same weapons & warframe to each and every fight is like... "not Warframe" 🙂).

What I totally fail to understand is why some players have the opinion that DE is supposed to have done something "sneaky, bad and underhanded" by having made Cambion Drift inhabitants immune to viral. Now that really seems silly.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

What I totally fail to understand is why some players have the opinion that DE is supposed to have done something "sneaky, bad and underhanded" by having made Cambion Drift inhabitants immune to viral. Now that really seems silly.

I was talking about more than just the infested, as you'll notice I pointed out the effective health buffs given to certain boss-likes who are also mysteriously viral immune.

It's still underhanded to not make mention of the fact in any case, though. As little as saying "now vulnerable to some statuses" on the change would have been a large improvement in clarity.

 

Also, in terms of the enemies in question, care to explain why none of the Infestation health types except basic Infested-health are even resistant at all to viral as a damage type, if that's the supposed justification for making them wholly immune from viral as a status type?

Inconsistencies, go!

[Wyrmius_Prime]

14 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

While I agree that it's very silly to completely negate a specific proc on a large scale,
you could just ... mod those weapons for, say, Corrosive + Heat. Bam, plenty usable, right there.

I mean that's what I am doing, I get viral + corrosive + heat on the same gun, and they still suck big dong because they sacrifice all their other stats on status that doesn't even work. On melee weapons it's not that big of a deal because you have Condition Overload which gives big damage even if you dont benefit from the viral procs, but for status guns viral is the only damage boost that exists in the entire game. The sniper has a whopping 1% crit, the bow has 7% and the warfan has 9% all of which are bad. The arm cannon, pistol and nunchakus at least have some viable crit.

19 hours ago, (PSN)camwyn-xenos said:

Forgive my not having update yet but are not kit guns from fortuna? And most of fathers equipment was heat and impact not toxin!

I am not talking about the kitguns. There are 6 non-kitgun new weapons, 4 of which are total garbo.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

Seeing how everyone has been using viral, I'm surprised that it hasn't been hard nerfed.

I'm kind of indifferent though, I'm using Gas+Electricity out of spite because meta makes me sick.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Corrosive does nothing against the unarmored.

Magnetic does nothing against the unshielded.

Viral does nothing to some infested.

Ideally, the next status rework gives all situational status procs a secondary universal effect like what Heat has. Heat doesn't always have armor to strip, but still provides CC and a DOT.

DE is probably going to change Viral from increased damage against health to increased damage against Flesh and Cloned Flesh. Maybe give it a secondary effect like a damage debuff.

Hopefully Puncture is buffed to be a weaker, but more universal Viral which pairs nicely with Corrosive. Like +60% damage on first proc, +150% on the 10th on top of the current damage debuff.

[Graavarg]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)HollowCube987 said:

I'm kind of indifferent though, I'm using Gas+Electricity out of spite because meta makes me sick.

I've also been using a lot of Gas lately 🙂. Zakti Prime opened my eyes again. It is one of the most interesting procs to use, since you have to play quite differently to get the full effect (and preferrably have +100% status chance and/or a guaranteed proc).