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Nerf Khora; then nerf Saryn and Equinox


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3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That said, they do cost a lot of time and energy to roll or money to roll. You have to consider that investment. Are Rivens strong? Yes, but they're equally expensive and time-consuming.

DE doesn’t care about your riven investment. Why they adjust disposition once every 3 months? DE should remove or extremely reduce the multi layer RNG madness from rivens if they want more people to engage on it and reduce the investment risk.

Edited by DrivaMain
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31 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

Riven prices are a huge reason people cried bout the Xoris as it could get you steady near riven damage. 

The Xoris? It had a 0.5 Disposition. Everything the Xoris did was already being done better, and had been for years. It was a downgrade in power for anyone with even a basic stat-stick Riven. All the Xoris did was make Khora accessible, since you got the weapon for free and could stay in your Zenurik safe space.

32 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

That being said How could you put LOS on Saryn's spores? The spread on their own due to several factors. Whos LOS would they spread on the spores? that would be a ton of calculations at any given moment especially on a Mhiasma cast.

Well, I don't think you should. But if you were going to, you'd probably put the LoS check originating from the individual spores when they pop, or if multiple spores are popping at once (like from death or Miasma) you'd just run a single batch of LoS checks from the originating enemy. LoS checks are as expensive as you want them to be. More accuracy means more cost, but a single raycast or trace or whatever DE calls them internally isn't really that expensive. You'd notice more performance lost due to rendering the effect than the actual physics check.

38 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

Khora's nerf (while I hate nerfs) was a long time coming and its not as bad as it could be all things considered her damage is still insane and you sit at the right choke points and you can still farm easy with her. 

Which is why it's such a lame nerf. It doesn't make Whipclaw any less powerful, it just makes using it annoying. I'm sure there's an idiom that describes this, something about the medicine being worse than what it's supposed to cure.

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4 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Or make everything equal and LoS if it does DPS. Conversation should be over with this one change.

The problem is DE's LOS check is totally scuffed. If you think the forums are a salt mine now, wait until all aoe weapons and abilities got the same treatment. 

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On 2020-11-22 at 6:44 PM, (PSN)mahoshonenfox said:

Khora was an outlier. The only thing you needed to build was the combo counter. When you hit 12 (in several casts) you're done. Equinox needs to build up damage in her Maim so you can't spam it. Saryn's spores also need to build up damage. If anything needs line of sight on Saryn, maybe Miasma.

Nuke damage isn't a problem in the game. Its spamming it that's the problem because that leads to passive game play.

precisely 

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If the line of sight check on whipclaw isn't functioning properly (not letting attacks go through walls without hampering regular use), it should be very easy to make it more forgiving. I don't think many people actually want to "whip the wall" as it were.

So maybe focus on demanding improvements to the line of sight check, if your are dissatisfied with the current implementation?

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14 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

DE doesn’t care about your riven investment. Why they adjust disposition once every 3 months? DE should remove or extremely reduce the multi layer RNG madness from rivens if they want more people to engage on it and reduce the investment risk.

I think DE want Rivens as luxury items to fetch large platinum prices. The Steel Essence changes were about Kuva farming ultimately becoming disruptive to the Riven economy. I can’t help but feel Khora’s rushed LOS alterations were done for the same reason as well. 

Edited by (PSN)dday3six
Grammatical error
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16 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

The Xoris? It had a 0.5 Disposition. Everything the Xoris did was already being done better, and had been for years. It was a downgrade in power for anyone with even a basic stat-stick Riven. All the Xoris did was make Khora accessible, since you got the weapon for free and could stay in your Zenurik safe space.

It wasnlt rivens for the Xoris that was the problem it was that you could get point and delete level numbers easily with no riven and maintain them all mission making the stat stick rivens (the ones that go for over 1k pl) a little less desirable. Being able to stay in zenurik was a HUGE draw for a frame that can be a bit energy hungry. While yes a Mire with riven will still net bigger numbers a Xoris (pre nerf) with no riven gave you QoL and close enough numbers for almost all content in the game to not notice. Ultimately it was a potential threat to the riven economy and was probably the main reason they nerfed it. Think about it 1k pl is $50(no discount) that could add up with enough people not buying those rivens.

 

 

16 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well, I don't think you should. But if you were going to, you'd probably put the LoS check originating from the individual spores when they pop, or if multiple spores are popping at once (like from death or Miasma) you'd just run a single batch of LoS checks from the originating enemy. LoS checks are as expensive as you want them to be. More accuracy means more cost, but a single raycast or trace or whatever DE calls them internally isn't really that expensive. You'd notice more performance lost due to rendering the effect than the actual physics check.

That would still be ridiculous to have 20+ checks for each Saryn in a mission at any given point. Especially since it takes a significant amount of time to build up to lethal no one in squad has any thing to do levels of damage. And once you get to kill all the things levels of damage your very likely to have a gap in enemies and hit decay. 

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9 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

It wasnlt rivens for the Xoris that was the problem it was that you could get point and delete level numbers easily with no riven and maintain them all mission making the stat stick rivens (the ones that go for over 1k pl) a little less desirable. Being able to stay in zenurik was a HUGE draw for a frame that can be a bit energy hungry. While yes a Mire with riven will still net bigger numbers a Xoris (pre nerf) with no riven gave you QoL and close enough numbers for almost all content in the game to not notice. Ultimately it was a potential threat to the riven economy and was probably the main reason they nerfed it. Think about it 1k pl is $50(no discount) that could add up with enough people not buying those rivens.

Like I said, nothing the Xoris introduced was new.

You could (and still can) get functionally identical performance on your Combo Counter using Naramon alone. Naramon's Power Spike has been in the game unchanged since 2017. Warframe is a game where you hit things, so there are always things to hit. You don't go 5 minutes at a time not fighting enemies. The difference between the Xoris' infinite Combo Counter and a functionally infinite Combo Counter using Naramon is really just pedantic; they both do the same thing. And with a proper Riven and a way of generating energy like Energize (or now Dispensary), you can get better energy performance and significantly higher damage using a Riven. The Xoris was maybe half as strong as a proper setup with less investment. Anyone serious about playing Khora would have eventually moved up to a big boy Riven.

I don't believe in a conspiracy theory where DE nerfed the Xoris because it harmed the Riven Mafia. It's more reasonable that they nerfed it because they didn't understand it nor Khora, which they've displayed repeatedly, and saw a big spooky uh-oh that scared them into nerfing something ASAP. Just like with Venari during Scarlet Spear, just like with LoS on Whipclaw. DE's response to balance is reactionary and always has been.

21 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

That would still be ridiculous to have 20+ checks for each Saryn in a mission at any given point.

I dunno what to tell you, but the game is already doing a bunch of physics checks already. Another 20/sec or even 20/frame isn't all that much. Every time an enemy shoots at you it's doing a check. Every time you shoot at an enemy with a hitscan weapon it's doing a check. Every time a spore pops it's already looking for nearby enemies, which is either handled through a physics check or some other lookup. Computers are pretty fast nowadays, and simple LoS checks are pretty cheap. As an example, the last time Volt was reworked and he got his Discharge the way it is now he could create significant performance problems by casting his 4 in some configurations. Ultimately what changed wasn't the way it worked, but how it looked. Rendering all of the particles/zaps was a far bigger performance cost than the physics.

The performance cost isn't why I think Spores shouldn't get LoS, it's the gameplay implications. LoS on Spores sounds like it'd be unfun.

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On 2020-11-22 at 4:44 PM, (XBOX)StripedWolf2001 said:

If LOS is going to affect Khora; then it needs to affect other nuke frames.

Sayrn can spread spores without LOS, and Equinox can Maim through walls.

Nuke frames do not bother me, but if you do it to one frame then all frames need LOS.

One example of a previous nerf was Mirage blind effect, that was nerfed, but then Saryn was given a buff.

The point is LOS needs to affect all frames, or not at all.

 

Sayrn would literally go to zero use if her spores got hit by a LOS check and that would give them a huge amount of bad PR. They already have enough of that and making a whip of all things have it kinda actually makes sense compared to a literal plague! Overall a horrible idea and if they ever do it I will laugh because I think the people still playing are suckers, but It would just be a bad move for them to make...

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Considering how Venari was "fixed" to do the opposite of what the ability hints described of healing objective, and now Khora got her second nerf based on a benefit that no longer exists; I wonder if we can see some more frames get nerfed for content that does not exist. I always though Fatal Teleport would have been too good if it affected bosses, so I think that can have its damaged halved at the very least. Not to mention Xaku's void damage would be very powerful if it worked on tridolon hunts so I think that ought to have its energy cost increased by at least 200.

Which is a salty way to say: I wish this LoS change as undone already and Khora given an exalted weapon slot to eliminate her extremely high damage without eliminating her being fun to play. I still hit like a runaway freight train just sometimes a piece of furniture prevents me to, so I cast it again 0.6 seconds later.

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A whip is a physical object. Spores are microscopic and Equinox is using an aura of moon and daylight, which is probably actually photons of light or even neutrinos which can actually pass through the earth's crust. 

Nice try, though. You shouldn't try to just nerf things out of jealousy. You said you didn't care but here you are making this thread.

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13 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

A whip is a physical object. Spores are microscopic and Equinox is using an aura of moon and daylight, which is probably actually photons of light or even neutrinos which can actually pass through the earth's crust. 

Nice try, though. You shouldn't try to just nerf things out of jealousy. You said you didn't care but here you are making this thread.

A nuclear bomb is a physical object but you're not gonna survive the blast hiding behind a crate. Whipclaw is an explosion.

Explosion GIFs | Tenor

None of them should have LoS.

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Saryn is already C tier in Steel Path lol

Saryn and Equinox would be trash by the new measuring stick if they were effected by LoS. Their only redeeming quality is that they do damage, and in Steel Path, not even that. Both of them lack strong defensive options, Saryn becomes a mediocre debuffer and Equinox... I actually don't know *what* equinox does in Steel Path. I've seen Zephyr there more than I've seen Equinox.

Umbral Mirage is new meta, disco ball genocide OP, keep up with the times lol

Khora never should have been nerfed. LoS is buggy and frustrating in Warframe, this was a bad change, and you're bad for encouraging this sort of thing further.

Edited by XaoGarrent
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1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

A nuclear bomb is a physical object but you're not gonna survive the blast hiding behind a crate. Whipclaw is an explosion.

Explosion GIFs | Tenor

None of them should have LoS.

Well the explosion isn't a nuke, and yes, none of them should have line of sight, but people were using the whip to go aflk through full walls, which is unfortunate they made the change because simple crate shouldn't block an explosion either.

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This "nerf it all" mentality is a plague and needs to stop. Why? Because you arrive at a situation where everything ends up becoming more or less the same, and there is literally no more meaningful player progression from MR1 to MR30. Heck, warframe is already halfway there with the whole "fashionframe endgame" meme. 

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