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FIX YOUR HOST MIGRATION


Zelmen

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It is Non-sense that host migration can undo so much time just spent. It's 2020. I would rather the time be spent making the game more stable than smaller based on the current trend of reducing game size.

Here some brainstorming ideas I'm just going to throw in the air:

  • Every client keeps a copy of the drops and XP that is synced with the host (Or not your pick) this way when connection is broken we don't lose everything
  • Keep a log and included who was in the group. Compare that log with theirs and validate the rewards that matched.
  • Expand the conclave server option and let people literally run their own server.
  • Seamlessly transfer who is host if host is becoming unstable. (Make those ping option actually mean something)

I'm sure there is people in this community that know more about this than me and would be will to help. I am drawing straws based off how other P2P games don't just delete 30-60min of my life.

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Migration stability is a huge problem. Losing a large enough reward is enough for most players to rage quit. It's a compounded problem that is also motivated by how frustrating some of the RNG is. After having subjected yourself to a tedious farm, losing something rare makes you evaluate whether you ever want to play again, or if it was worth the effort the first time you achieved your aim. 

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11 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Every client keeps a copy of the drops and XP that is synced with the host (Or not your pick) this way when connection is broken we don't lose everything

That's 4x the bandwidth running between everyone. Not an issue for most but those that have to pay for internet by the MB/GB allowances will not be happy at a 4x increase in monetary cost for playing and some now can't afford it. Large parts of USA/AU have pretty poor connections because the lines traverse vast amounts of land so some of those can't play anymore because the bandwidth requirements are now too high.

11 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Keep a log and included who was in the group. Compare that log with theirs and validate the rewards that matched.

Doesn't work unless everyone has that log in which case you have the problem above.

11 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Expand the conclave server option and let people literally run their own server.

This is essentially what the host does. You are back at square one.

11 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Seamlessly transfer who is host if host is becoming unstable. (Make those ping option actually mean something)

This is what they try to do. I've only seen a couple of host migrations given that I play mostly solo or in pre-made groups but it has always worked flawlessly for me the few times it has happened.

If the host migration fails it is only because there is no logical way to transfer the unaffected users to a new host with the session intact. They only way to make that (almost guaranteed) is your first suggestion but that has downsides that would eject at least a portion of the player-base from the game.

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1 hour ago, Shalath said:

If the host migration fails it is only because there is no logical way to transfer the unaffected users to a new host with the session intact.

My focus is about leaving the session intact. It about not losing progression. If I get kicked to solo play then so be it. But there should be safety nets to prevent the lose of progression.

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13 hours ago, Zelmen said:

I would rather the time be spent making the game more stable than smaller

This, just this, speaks volumes of how much you do not know about how any of this works.

Let me explain why Host Migration is, and from a specific point of view, has to be such a difficult thing to deal with: Because code injection is not only common, it's easy and well documented.

What you asked for here:

13 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Every client keeps a copy of the drops and XP that is synced with the host (Or not your pick) this way when connection is broken we don't lose everything

Literally is the way people would be able to do it. Even this:

13 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Keep a log and included who was in the group. Compare that log with theirs and validate the rewards that matched.

Does not prevent it. Just me, somebody who has only had code injection explained to me in the most basic terms, can think of at least three methods to get around that, one of which being that there is only one player that reconnects first, with injected logs and data, and the others reconnect afterwards to verify against them with similar data. All of which matches up from the same method.

If all four come back with the same information, then there's no obvious pick-up for the servers to flag, and while they might get trade-banned for a few hours for being able to gain an unusual amount of resources (just as people farming Steel Essence originally did), that won't matter to those people.

Dedicated servers would genuinely fix a lot of this. Except you would literally need Epic or Blizzard levels of money to achieve that. And you run into the same problems that happen with dedicated servers. Just take a gander at all the 'fun' games like Warhammer, Diablo, Overwatch, Fortnight and so on have when there's an event on. Matchmaking hell, servers filling up and preventing you from accessing the game because that's the only server you're near to...

You run into problems whatever method you use.

There is no magical single answer for any of this.

Could DE be doing better? Sure. Buy Plat. Buy Prime Access. Keep paying them money on this game and they can probably afford it.

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15 hours ago, Zelmen said:

Cross play and mooch off PC. Boom answered lol

Love it when players like you don't even pay attention to the Devs when they make statements about their plans... Cross play with PC isn't coming any time soon because console Cert exists. DE has a fast-pass in place with console cert teams that gets their updates through really, really fast compared to a lot of other games. But they also absolutely need to patch bugs and adjust values on the game after releases because their test clusters are infrequent and not big enough, which they can do any time on PC, but have to go through cert on console. So, for the foreseeable future, years to come, updates will not be synchronised, so cross play would have to literally be turned off every time there was a hot-fix to prevent players causing bugs that should have been patched in the PC version, or receiving items that do not exist on the console versions.

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On 2020-11-24 at 6:39 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

This, just this, speaks volumes of how much you do not know about how any of this works.

Let me explain why Host Migration is, and from a specific point of view, has to be such a difficult thing to deal with: Because code injection is not only common, it's easy and well documented.

What you asked for here:

Literally is the way people would be able to do it. Even this:

Does not prevent it. Just me, somebody who has only had code injection explained to me in the most basic terms, can think of at least three methods to get around that, one of which being that there is only one player that reconnects first, with injected logs and data, and the others reconnect afterwards to verify against them with similar data. All of which matches up from the same method.

If all four come back with the same information, then there's no obvious pick-up for the servers to flag, and while they might get trade-banned for a few hours for being able to gain an unusual amount of resources (just as people farming Steel Essence originally did), that won't matter to those people.

Dedicated servers would genuinely fix a lot of this. Except you would literally need Epic or Blizzard levels of money to achieve that. And you run into the same problems that happen with dedicated servers. Just take a gander at all the 'fun' games like Warhammer, Diablo, Overwatch, Fortnight and so on have when there's an event on. Matchmaking hell, servers filling up and preventing you from accessing the game because that's the only server you're near to...

You run into problems whatever method you use.

There is no magical single answer for any of this.

Could DE be doing better? Sure. Buy Plat. Buy Prime Access. Keep paying them money on this game and they can probably afford it.

Thank You! I swear i have this conversation with people entirely too often in game. you've explained it very succinctly 

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On 2020-11-27 at 3:50 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Love it when players like you don't even pay attention to the Devs when they make statements about their plans

I remember why I blocked you in the first place. You can't even realize when someone is being sarcastic. We all know DE is most likely not going to do cross play and cross progression is the most likely thing to happen if anything. Anyone who has been in the Warframe community for a one big update can figure out PC is the testing group before hit consoles due to getting some hot fixes in before cert submission.  Why do you think I am laughing at the end of the comment. You just trying to jump at a topic without adding anything useful to it. We should be trying to productive not acting like a know it all. I sure didn't say I knew how to fix it.

On 2020-11-24 at 11:39 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

This, just this, speaks volumes of how much you do not know about how any of this works.

On 2020-11-24 at 11:39 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Just me, somebody who has only had code injection explained to me in the most basic terms

Down talking to someone and then following up with only knowing basic knowledge of the topic doesn't make you any better then the post I wrote. This just comes across in the most condescending way possible. You must be so much fun at parties. I made it pretty clear that none of those ideas in their current state are the solution. Which is why the term "brainstorming" was used. Just because I am trying to bring this topic back to light does not mean it is worthless to talk about. Coming in with your "Basic" knowledge of the how someone can cheat the system doesn't give you the right to be do disrespectful to people in the community.

I will not be responding again to you since you lack the social skills to talk maturely about "Feedback" (look at the section we are in) while being so condescending in the process.

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20 hours ago, Zelmen said:

This just comes across in the most condescending way possible.

It's meant to.

When you don't even bother to get basic knowledge of a topic before you complain about people with a decade and more of knowledge in the topic supposedly not doing anything about it?

You deserve condescension.

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On 2020-12-04 at 2:26 AM, Ishredpapers said:

tl;dr remove host migration system 

So... when your host disconnects, for any reason, you always want to lose all of your progress instead of having a chance to pick it back up again with a new person taking over as host? I mean, alright, you do you.

When you're connected to the host, that's your only connection to DE's servers. It's done that way to reduce load on the servers overall. If a hosted game disconnects, there's no 'leaving voluntarily', that's it, the game is done, you have to reconnect to the main server and have no way to prove what progress you had, your system can't be trusted, so you lose everything.

This is why Host Migration exists; it's trying to fix your problem with a host losing connection and you losing all of your progress, it's trying to keep you connected to a host, connected to DE's servers, and you only lose stuff when it fails.

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I also leave games after 20-25min. because the chance of losing everything is very high. 🤔
especially bounties I would never play for more than 20 minutes. host can comfortably leave the group and then mostly everyone else land in the menu. deimos is not for me at the moment. and implemented mieserally with new bounties.

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8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So... when your host disconnects, for any reason, you always want to lose all of your progress instead of having a chance to pick it back up again with a new person taking over as host? I mean, alright, you do you.

When you're connected to the host, that's your only connection to DE's servers. It's done that way to reduce load on the servers overall. If a hosted game disconnects, there's no 'leaving voluntarily', that's it, the game is done, you have to reconnect to the main server and have no way to prove what progress you had, your system can't be trusted, so you lose everything.

This is why Host Migration exists; it's trying to fix your problem with a host losing connection and you losing all of your progress, it's trying to keep you connected to a host, connected to DE's servers, and you only lose stuff when it fails.

When host disconnects you get a host migration anyway and lose everything. What are you talking about. Yes i want host migration system gone. It's not trying to fix anything it's breaking the game.

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2 hours ago, Ishredpapers said:

When host disconnects you get a host migration anyway and lose everything. What are you talking about.

The reason that Host Migration exists is because it's trying to keep your progress, rewards and other gains like Affinity.

You do not lose everything from a Host Migration if it is successful.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The reason that Host Migration exists is because it's trying to keep your progress, rewards and other gains like Affinity.

You do not lose everything from a Host Migration if it is successful.

You lose all your mech xp or xp in ESO, xp loss also happens in normal missions. xp gets bugged and gives 1/10th of what it's supposed to after host migration in ESO sometimes. I've lost items, mods through host migration before. There's no such thing as "succesful" host migration. The system itself is a failure and should be scrubbed completely and maybe DE should get back to the drawing board or start looking into dedicated servers after 8 years or whatever it is, no? Because hosting 30-40k people playing isn't really a big deal throughout i think 8 regions with Asia, Europe and NA definitely being the most populated ones.

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11 hours ago, Ishredpapers said:

You lose all your mech xp or xp in ESO, xp loss also happens in normal missions.

Again, this is what the Host Migration system is trying to fix. It's not perfect, but it's the literal only way to compensate for host disconnection in a Peer-2-Peer system.

That's like saying 'This treatment is 80% Effective against this type of cancer' and then deciding to remove the treatment from use entirely because it isn't 100%.

Dedicated servers are a possibility. You want them?

Pay.

Start buying every. single. Prime Access. Buy Plat at full price every week whether you need it or not. Get everyone doing it. Because after 8 years you need the same amount of money as Epic or Blizzard to swap Warframe over to dedicated servers.

And guess what? There's no guarantee that they'll be near you. You could have a worse problem with connection because your dedicated server is further away than all the people you were connecting to. If DE decides to do an update and you're in a dedicated server? Guess what? There's no 'stay in your missions while the updates are done', no, you're kicked and the server update goes live, then you get to come back and your progress may or may not have been saved.

DE wants to release the new update? Right, look at Diablo and Overwatch and all of the others with matchmaking wait times of anywhere between thirty minutes and four hours on update weekend.

I'm not saying Peer-2-Peer is better. I'm saying there is no such thing as a perfect system and changing to the other is pure 'grass is greener' thinking.

I'm not saying Host Migration is a perfect, all-powerful system. I'm saying that we have a problem, DE's got a system they're using to try and fix that problem, and removing their attempts to fix a problem is straight-up moronic.

We've all lost items, mods and Affinity through Host Migration before. The difference between having Host Migration and not having it is that without Host Migration on a Peer-2-Peer system, you guarantee losing everything, every time, forever. With it, you get to keep as much as possible, and DE are still working on it so that they can eventually get it to keep everything.

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10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Again, this is what the Host Migration system is trying to fix. It's not perfect, but it's the literal only way to compensate for host disconnection in a Peer-2-Peer system.

That's like saying 'This treatment is 80% Effective against this type of cancer' and then deciding to remove the treatment from use entirely because it isn't 100%.

Dedicated servers are a possibility. You want them?

Pay.

Start buying every. single. Prime Access. Buy Plat at full price every week whether you need it or not. Get everyone doing it. Because after 8 years you need the same amount of money as Epic or Blizzard to swap Warframe over to dedicated servers.

And guess what? There's no guarantee that they'll be near you. You could have a worse problem with connection because your dedicated server is further away than all the people you were connecting to. If DE decides to do an update and you're in a dedicated server? Guess what? There's no 'stay in your missions while the updates are done', no, you're kicked and the server update goes live, then you get to come back and your progress may or may not have been saved.

DE wants to release the new update? Right, look at Diablo and Overwatch and all of the others with matchmaking wait times of anywhere between thirty minutes and four hours on update weekend.

I'm not saying Peer-2-Peer is better. I'm saying there is no such thing as a perfect system and changing to the other is pure 'grass is greener' thinking.

I'm not saying Host Migration is a perfect, all-powerful system. I'm saying that we have a problem, DE's got a system they're using to try and fix that problem, and removing their attempts to fix a problem is straight-up moronic.

We've all lost items, mods and Affinity through Host Migration before. The difference between having Host Migration and not having it is that without Host Migration on a Peer-2-Peer system, you guarantee losing everything, every time, forever. With it, you get to keep as much as possible, and DE are still working on it so that they can eventually get it to keep everything.

You don't need same amount of money to host ~35-40k people on PC, consoles is even less, as Blizzard, LMFAO what are you even talking about. People pay for this game every day, skins, when prime warframes come out. They've been doing that for 8 years. You've no idea what you're on about. I'd rather take chances with stable dedicated servers than with the ms i'm getting in my region which is like every 3rd host over 200 ms somehow miraculously and then a host migration and i'm alone. Yeah i think i'll be fine throwing the host migration system in the bin and having a dedicated server for that specific region. Multiple games are doing that and it's working out just fine. P2P hosting is garbage. It's like i'm back in early 2000's.

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14 minutes ago, Ishredpapers said:

You've no idea what you're on about.

Oh, sure, I'm the one that has no idea when I'm the one pointing out that Host Migration is the literal attempt to fix host disconnection on P2P and you're the one saying get rid of it because it is the problem with your gameplay. I'm the one reminding you that it's a P2P connection in the first place and that the alternative is dedicated servers, and suddenly I'm the one that doesn't know what they're talking about?

You're like that guy that forgot Refrigeration exists in that argument with Wendy's about 'fresh, never frozen' meat.

Now, guess why I'm saying they would need money? Because, if you paid attention to the DevStreams, that's DE's literal reason why they haven't done it already.

That, and the fact that you would have to entirely re-code a P2P game to run an entirely different net-code. That would take a good overhaul of the system and likely shut down Warframe for the duration of the actual change over from one system to the other, a process that could take a minimum of a week, and anywhere up to four, given the basic problems that all the other known dedicated server games go through on launch. Let alone ones with as many bugs in the base code as Warframe already does after 8 years of spaghetti coding.

What's better for DE right now? Spend thousands of man-hours on recoding their game, tens of thousands of dollars buying up dedicated server space around the world, and then shutting down the actual game so that they hemorrhage players and money for anywhere up to a month as they change over the system? Or spend the same amount of man-hours fixing the hosting problem with P2P, don't spend the money on dedicated servers, and keep the game running the entire time?

Make it make sense...(!)

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  • 2 months later...
On 2020-11-24 at 7:26 AM, BahamutKaiser said:

Migration stability is a huge problem. Losing a large enough reward is enough for most players to rage quit. It's a compounded problem that is also motivated by how frustrating some of the RNG is. After having subjected yourself to a tedious farm, losing something rare makes you evaluate whether you ever want to play again, or if it was worth the effort the first time you achieved your aim. 

Yeah this is the problem with this game the HOST MIGRATION thing that make loose all the progress in mission and lose all the loot and this is extremely frustrating that you played 2,3 hours trying to get the rare items and some HOST MIGRATION appear and it even ask you if you want to get back in the player menu and as you accept that and press ok the result of mission appear to see what actually you gathered thro the mission, sooo what is on the screen:  BLANK SPACE......   

......

simply want to explode of anger and never EVER play the game again, this is the most BIGGEST problem of this game.

PLEASE FIX THIS ISSUE OR NO ONE WILL PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE OF THIS.....

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5 hours ago, Zarko_MKD said:

Yeah this is the problem with this game the HOST MIGRATION

Oh, a thread nekro...

Just for somebody that doesn't seem to have read the thread; no.

This is a Peer to Peer connected game, where you connect to a host that is another player in order to play a mission.

Under normal circumstances this means that if the host disconnects, you lose progress.

DE made this Host Migration system to try to FIX that problem. Host Migration does not ruin games, player connections ruin games, Host Migration is the Medic running around trying to save the game for the other players.

The only 'fix' is for DE to spend thousands of man-hours working on a complete re-coding of Warframe from the ground up to make its Net Code run on what's known as 'Dedicated Servers'. Dedicated Servers are expensive to invest in for a game of this size because they have to be bought in a wide amount of locations across every country that the game runs in (otherwise you have terrible connection all the time and no way around it), and they are charged by the amount of data transferred (meaning that Warframe, which has a lot of data to transfer at all times, would be very expensive to maintain).

While this is possible, especially with money injections from new investors (like Tencent, which bought shares in DE's parent company a while back) it's not advisable because the game is 8 years old and has a mountain of content that would need to be redone.

It's also not advisable because the same amount of money and hours of work could instead fund hundreds of Updates and Content for Warframe as it is.

It's also, also not advisable because the time and money spent on switching Warframe would come instead of Updates and Content, meaning the game would just lose players constantly to even worse content droughts than we've ever had before.

Due to the base nature of how Warframe works, Host Migration will never be perfect. But then again, dedicated servers are not perfect either, with connection issues, traffic issues on update days, having to kick players for any hotifix or update, and dozens of other known bugs and issues with the system.

There is no 'perfect method' for gaming across the internet.

And blaming Host Migration, which is the literal method DE have put in to try and save your games and stop you from losing progress, for your troubles... is just ridiculous.

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