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Should Saryn get the Khora treatment? (A rebalance concept)


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With the arrival of a much needed change to Khora, and a very ballsy move at that, DE has left me thinking of how they could rebalance Saryn in a similar manner. 

The changes would be as follows;

1. Spores - Adding LOS requirements and buffing base stats. The stat changes are across the board positive to offset the addition of LOS requirements.

  • The spread of spores requires LOS from the location of the bursted spore.
  • Base range is increased from 16m to 20m (matches Miasma range).
  • Damage Decay rate is reduced from 10% to 7%.
  • Recast Decay is reduced from 20% to 10%.
  • Initial spores count per enemy is increased from 3 to 4.

2. Molt - (no changes)

3. Toxic Lash - (no changes)

4. Miasma - Enemies affected by Miasma will spread spores through walls upon death; however, only 50% of their spores will pass through walls.

  • e.g. If an enemy has 4 spores on them only 2 will ignore LOS, and if they have 12 only 6 will.
  • Base damage increase from 150 to 200 viral.

 

These numbers are not absolute and could be changed or tweaked according to what DE would think appropriate. I hope this isn't too much of a "nerf" and could be considered within reason as a simple rebalance of her kit.

 

Thanks for reading!

- Good Luck, Have Fun - 

Edited by Gashabae
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  • Gashabae changed the title to Should Saryn get the Khora treatment? (A rebalance concept)

Just to be sure that i understand properly you want spores to act with line of sight from the user or from the source?

You see where i'm going right ? From the user is math from one point from the source is mad land math from point to pointS exponential possibilities ^.^

Edited by trunks013
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4 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I kinda missed the changes to Spores that made it instant kill enemies 3 hours into Steel Path scaling.

Was that the infinite scaling with Trinity or something else? Either way I'm still salty that I missed out on the meme that was Spore+Trin vs high level enemies.

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Just now, Gashabae said:

Was that the infinite scaling with Trinity or something else? Either way I'm still salty that I missed out on the meme that was Spore+Trin vs high level enemies.

Thats nothing compared to concealed explosive resonating saryn trust me.

Edited by trunks013
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Just now, Gashabae said:

Was that the infinite scaling with Trinity or something else? Either way I'm still salty that I missed out on the meme that was Spore+Trin vs high level enemies.

Well, line of sight is not going to happen. If you seek success on your crusade to get Saryn nerfed you'd be better off concentrating on Miasma. Maybe make Spores heal Saryn instead of doing damage? I don't really see it either way to be honest.

Saryn has had so many nerfs already, there really isn't anything left to nerf.

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3 minutes ago, trunks013 said:

Thats nothing compared to concealed explosive resonating saryn trust me.

Oh I remember that alright. Toxin Hikou Prime + Concealed explosive on Saryn were ugly. It's a good thing they got rid of that... kind of reminds me of the Maim slash + Resonating that lasted for a few days lmao.

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Well, line of sight is not going to happen. If you seek success on your crusade to get Saryn nerfed you'd be better off concentrating on Miasma. Maybe make Spores heal Saryn instead of doing damage? I don't really see it either way to be honest.

Saryn has had so many nerfs already, there really isn't anything left to nerf.

Wow slow down. I don't think changing her spores from doing damage to healing is the same as adding some form LOS restriction.

I'm also not sure if you fully read the rebalance. The idea is that her 1st ability on its own will require LOS, but LOS can be ignored if they are affected by her 4th (albeit with only half as many spores going through walls). This isn't 100% butchering her ability to ignore LOS, but will restrict it to a synergy between her 4th and 1st. 

Also worth mentioning that the range of spores would be increased.

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11 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

Wow slow down. I don't think changing her spores from doing damage to healing is the same as adding some form LOS restriction.

Spores deal no damage by default, they need to ramp up. Line of sight means they will decay, even on the Steel Path. Might as well deal no damage at all then.

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25 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Spores deal no damage by default, they need to ramp up. Line of sight means they will decay, even on the Steel Path. Might as well deal no damage at all then.

1. There is still a way of bypassing LoS (1st + 4th).

2. Decay rate is reduced significantly from 10% to 7% (could be more or less depending on where testing would deem balanced).

3. Decay via recast is reduced by 50% (10% decay) allowing the player to start up new groups of spores without a major loss of damage.

4. Increased spread range.

Edit: Initial spore count is increased from 3 to 4.

Again, I don't think you're actually reading 100% of what I'm writing. There would still be a way of ignoring LoS and the stat buffs would (hopefully) balance out the LoS restrictions. It's fine if you don't agree that the buffs would actually be enough to balance out the addition of LoS restrictions, but it seems like you're only reading half of what I type and objecting to the half that you read?

45 minutes ago, Dark_Lugia said:

No.

LoS is one of the worst things you can do. The ingame geometry ist often a mess (just look at stairs).

I don't know how much the geometry would actually affect LoS, but that's a fair point.

Hildryn's Aegis Storm seems like a pretty good example of the botched geometry (especially on stairs), but how much of that is actually a result of the geometry, idk. It could be that DE's uses a more arbitrary form of LoS. When is an enemy actually within LoS? When the player character is in view of an enemies face? When the pc can see half or more of their body? Or when the pc can see their toe?

Whatever the case is, I hope they sort out the geometry, and if LoS would significantly mess with something like her Spores (to the point where it is unusable) then I'd be content leaving her as is.

Thanks for pointing that out!

Edited by Gashabae
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2 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

Again, I don't think you're actually reading 100% of what I'm writing.

I don't think you play Saryn. You avoid decay at all costs - you build very high range specifically to avoid decay (not necessarily to damage everything on the map). If your Spores regularly hit decay, be it 10% or 7%, the ability might as well deal 0 damage.

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1 hour ago, Gashabae said:

From the sources LOS (i.e. the spores). 

It should spread in similar to many other ability or mechanics in game as we see the energy fly from one enemy to the other. 1 enemy infected kills spreads to 1 additional spore plus the original spore = 2 spores, stacks up to 4 spores max spread per kill, but with her 3rd active Toxic Lash allows for a 2x additional spores.

  • stack 1: 1 infected > kill > 1+1 additional spores spread
  • stack 2: next infected > killed > 1+2 additional spores spread
  • stack 3: next infected > killed > 1+3 additional spores spread
  • stack 4: next infected > killed > 1+4 additional spores spread
  • Toxic Lash stack 1: next infected > killed > 1+(stack lvl x2) additional spores spread

Therefore the cap per kill would be stack 4 + Toxic Lash = 1+(4x2) = 8 spores spread per kill in line of sight.

Example: If 50 enemies are infected at max cap and instantly killed, 50 x 8 = 400 spores targeting enemies in LoS

If there are no enemies in line of sight they do what every other ability does, bounce onto objects and vanish.

Yes its not game break but the real benefit to spores should be a constant 80% corrosive armor strip. Not the damage cap for spores.

Having an ability linger for super long duration just feels broken.

Edited by kwlingo
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Are we talking about the same ability here?

Last time I checked, Spores dealt 10 (ten) damage per second baseline.

Last time I checked, nobody advises people to use Saryn on the Steel Path, or for anything but ESO, really.

Khora got nerfed because she literally onetapped level 300 Steel Path enemies as quickly as they spawned. How did we end up talking about Saryn and her 10 (ten) damage Spores again?

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1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

It should spread in similar to many other ability or mechanics in game as we see the energy fly from one enemy to the other. 1 enemy infected kills spreads to 1 additional spore plus the original spore = 2 spores, stacks up to 4 spores max spread per kill, but with her 3rd active Toxic Lash allows for a 2x additional spores.

  • stack 1: 1 infected > kill > 1+1 additional spores spread
  • stack 2: next infected > killed > 1+2 additional spores spread
  • stack 3: next infected > killed > 1+3 additional spores spread
  • stack 4: next infected > killed > 1+4 additional spores spread
  • Toxic Lash stack 1: next infected > killed > 1+(stack lvl x2) additional spores spread

Therefore the cap per kill would be stack 4 + Toxic Lash = 1+(4x2) = 8 spores spread per kill in line of sight.

Example: If 50 enemies are infected at max cap and instantly killed, 50 x 8 = 400 spores targeting enemies in LoS

If there are no enemies in line of sight they do what every other ability does, bounce onto objects and vanish.

Yes its not game break but the real benefit to spores should be a constant 80% corrosive armor strip. Not the damage cap for spores.

Having an ability linger for super long duration just feels broken.

I think I get the gist of what was written. So with every additional enemy a spore travels to, there is 1 more spore upon infection (up to 4)? The damage and decay numbers would have to be changed to make this work considering the current spread cap is 3 and this suggestion has a cap of 8 (with toxic lash). Or maybe the increased damage is here to balance out the addition of LoS requirement? 

Now what you mean by, "linger for super long durations," has got me confused. Are you suggesting it be a duration based ability, dies after 4 stacks, or something along those lines? It's fine if that's the case, I'm just not seeing how this would be any different in terms of the spores lingering for a long duration.

53 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Are we talking about the same ability here?

Last time I checked, Spores dealt 10 (ten) damage per second baseline.

Last time I checked, nobody advises people to use Saryn on the Steel Path, or for anything but ESO, really.

Khora got nerfed because she literally onetapped level 300 Steel Path enemies as quickly as they spawned. How did we end up talking about Saryn and her 10 (ten) damage Spores again?

No reason to prevaricate. You and I both know that Saryn can deal high damage despite the low baseline.

Nobody does and nobody should, but that doesn't mean Saryn is fine as is. Every frame should be balanced in the aspects of the game they excel at. For Saryn, that's nuking low-mid level enemies, and for Khora, that's dealing with high level enemies. Just because DE is extremely bad at keeping that balance doesn't mean balance is something we shouldn't strive for.

That's just not true. Khora got nerfed because ppl were afk farming with her through walls. If the goal was to nerf her ability to one-tap level 300 enemies and all they did was add a LoS requirement and leave the damage, that would make DE bad at nerfing things, and looking at their track record... that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm not really interested in a back and forth about what is probably a misunderstanding on both sides. You seem to disagree that she needs to be rebalanced, and that's fine.

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48 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

For Saryn, that's nuking low-mid level enemies

If that's what you care about, it is fair to say that Miasma is completely overpowered. Killing level 6 enemies just as fast as Khora kills level 300 Steel Path ones.

So it needs line of sight to stop Saryns farming several thousands of Steel Essence from those level 6 enemies huh? Wait something about that doesn't sound right...

47 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

That's just not true. Khora got nerfed because ppl were afk farming with her through walls.

If it was slow and ineffective, nobody would have cared. But is was the fastest and most effective method, on top of being afk and behind a wall.

Edited by Traumtulpe
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20 hours ago, Gashabae said:

I think I get the gist of what was written. So with every additional enemy a spore travels to, there is 1 more spore upon infection (up to 4)? The damage and decay numbers would have to be changed to make this work considering the current spread cap is 3 and this suggestion has a cap of 8 (with toxic lash). Or maybe the increased damage is here to balance out the addition of LoS requirement? 

Now what you mean by, "linger for super long durations," has got me confused. Are you suggesting it be a duration based ability, dies after 4 stacks, or something along those lines? It's fine if that's the case, I'm just not seeing how this would be any different in terms of the spores lingering for a long duration.

Spore's best benefit is the corrosive armor reduction it does. The damage ticks it does was a huge mistake on the kit. Yes with the right build the spores keep spreading themselves rooms away from the player, making the spores linger for a long duration.  The numbers I was using are just ideas not exact. Ill let DE do the rework on balancing the kit.

The thing that breaks DPS abilities is when it bypasses walls and objects. If the spores didn't do any damage but just the corrosive strip, it would work more in the way every other none DPS ability works which can bypass. But since it can do super high DPS that can spread itself, it just feels broken when other frames don't have thing that can bypass walls with high DPS. There are only a few left that can do this.

I never read the wiki on her kit so never knew it did only 3 targets max. From playing her it seems more like it spreads to everything in large radius, If with only 3 max and it can do that kind of craziness, maybe just leave it at 1 max work just as good. Not sure

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59 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

I never read the wiki on her kit so never knew it did only 3 targets max. From playing her it seems more like it spreads to everything in large radius, If with only 3 max and it can do that kind of craziness, maybe just leave it at 1 max work just as good. Not sure

I might've worded this poorly, but just to clarify... each enemy can have a maximum of 3 spores on them via the spreading of spores and can only spread those 3 spores. The only exception would be recasting on an enemy that already has a spore on them, this will spawn 12 spores on them and decay 20% spore damage. I never really knew the details before checking the Wiki either. Most ppl just know she does damage, and to be fair, that's all you really need to know.

1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

Spore's best benefit is the corrosive armor reduction it does. The damage ticks it does was a huge mistake on the kit. Yes with the right build the spores keep spreading themselves rooms away from the player, making the spores linger for a long duration.  The numbers I was using are just ideas not exact. Ill let DE do the rework on balancing the kit.

The thing that breaks DPS abilities is when it bypasses walls and objects. If the spores didn't do any damage but just the corrosive strip, it would work more in the way every other none DPS ability works which can bypass. But since it can do super high DPS that can spread itself, it just feels broken when other frames don't have thing that can bypass walls with high DPS. There are only a few left that can do this.

I kind of agree with you, but that would be a rough transition and DE would definitely receive mountains of hate for a change like that. I feel like working with what we got seems a bit safer. 

That and this also seems like a hefty nerf to her dps. If this change were to go through, she'd need some buffs (not necessarily DPS buffs, but something to make up for the loss of dps).

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On 2020-11-25 at 4:14 PM, Gashabae said:

That and this also seems like a hefty nerf to her dps. If this change were to go through, she'd need some buffs (not necessarily DPS buffs, but something to make up for the loss of dps).

One option could be allow Spores to do 100% armor strip at max stacks per enemy or after 5 spore ticks. This alone does huge DPS with no armored enemies.

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