Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Khora Whipclaw feedback


_Tormex_

Recommended Posts

Just now, Spectre-8 said:

Different opinion = must be trolling , let's agree to disagree .

Short and non-informative answers. You’re submitting blatantly radical ideas, yet unwilling to provide explanation and depth. Then trying to use “just my opinion,” to shield from criticism. That’s bait, and that’s how I know you’re trolling. 
 

Want to provide me wrong. Provide examples why your ideas should be implemented, or even how or why they will work. My bet is hedged that you won’t though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:

Short and non-informative answers. You’re submitting blatantly radical ideas, yet unwilling to provide explanation and depth. Then trying to use “just my opinion,” to shield from criticism. That’s bait, and that’s how I know you’re trolling. 
 

Want to provide me wrong. Provide examples why your ideas should be implemented, or even how or why they will work. My bet is hedged that you won’t though.

Target capping will directly assist with the server calculation overload that will happen if you only use the LoS method , also target capping will ensure that if 2 Saryns meet one of them would never have to leave because the other has bigger range on her abilities .

And that's for starters i mean really .

Still disagree ?

edit : something that's ... kinda off topic but check it out , I feel like in coop some frames are dominant to the point where someone has to go afk because there are no monsters left to fight . I think you've seen this in defense missions .

So the way i see it , it'll be better coop experience in the end of the day and solo won't be game breaking because the game spawns less monsters when you are soloing . So ye that's my train of thought . I can add even more reasons but that's for a different thread entirely .

some spelling might be bad , who cares

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Line-of-sight does not exist on other explosive weapons.

Line-of-sight should not exist on Whipclaw.

Whipclaw is a melee weapon, it uses overpowered melee mods. Melee weapons require line of sight.

How about a fair trade: Whipclaw scales with primary mods, and has 0.5 Riven disposition, but does not require line of sight. No? That's what I thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Whipclaw is a melee weapon, it uses overpowered melee mods. Melee weapons require line of sight.

How about a fair trade: Whipclaw scales with primary mods, and has 0.5 Riven disposition, but does not require line of sight. No? That's what I thought.

Yes... Is that even a question? If it doesn't work, I can't use it. I'd take nerfed damage over broken mechanics any day of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

Target capping with directly assist with the server calculation overload that will happen if you only use the LoS method , also target capping will ensure that if 2 Saryns meet one of them would never have to leave because the other has bigger range on her abilities .

And that's for starters i mean really .

Still disagree ?


That’s not accurate. You’re machine does the calculations, not the server for an instance of PVE. Further Warframe is peer to peer, so the server is mostly an info hub. LoS checks in its simplest form is another calculation, as is target capping. It’s the act of displaying the numbers or other particle effects that causes ‘overload’ or more aptly named ‘slow down’. You idea will do little to help that. Upgrading one’s rig would do a lot better. 

Multiple Saryn’s can exist just fine. The spores overlap. However if Spore transfer on death required line of sight Saryn would be garbo, because the counter would be impossible to maintain. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:


That’s not accurate. You’re machine does the calculations, not the server for an instance of PVE. Further Warframe is peer to peer, so the server is mostly an info hub. LoS checks in its simplest form is another calculation, as is target capping. It’s the act of displaying the numbers or other particle effects that causes ‘overload’ or more aptly named ‘slow down’. You idea will do little to help that. Upgrading one’s rig would do a lot better. 

Multiple Saryn’s can exist just fine. The spores overlap. However if Spore transfer on death required line of sight Saryn would be garbo, because the counter would be impossible to maintain. 

Any link for the calculation theory of yours ? i'm not entirely sure if this is how it works .

Multiple Saryn being ok to exist doesn't help the issue with coop , e.g. i play my game but you don't have monsters to fight which is a big issue . It has been for years .

But like i said it's ok to disagree , my opinion is just different and i don't want to add more of the bigger picture because we will have to make an entirely different thread about it .

edit : ofc i could be wrong i could be right - point is the discussion at the end of the day

As for the " trolling " comment of yours don't sweat it , i don't hold grudges - can't care less .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If LoS in Warframe wasn't so broken it wouldn't matter. I use Khora from time to time and this change will affect me negatively even though I was never a fan of "whipping a wall".

Also, I know its mean but it would be nice if DE nerfed her to death and then reworked her. Spamming Whipclaw is boring, her cat is useless, Ensnare and Strangledome are basically just very expensive sources of CC if you remove the Whipclaw from the equation. She was supposed to be the master of physical elements, but ended up as another farm-tool with a 10 IQ set of abilities. Too bad the rework process would take several years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

Right so at least it will help with the calculations on the PC / console which is a good thing .

Multiple Saryn being ok to exist doesn't help the issue with coop , e.g. i play my game but you don't have monsters to fight which is a big issue . It has been for years .


No, no it won’t. Rendering visuals requires more processing power than running numbers. Your suggestions just make for different numbers to be run. What we need is more control over what effects are displayed. 
 

I don’t have issue with finding enemies to kill. I don’t remotely ever remember having it either. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, (PSN)dday3six said:


No, no it won’t. Rendering visuals requires more processing power than running numbers. Your suggestions just make for different numbers to be run. What we need is more control over what effects are displayed. 
 

I don’t have issue with finding enemies to kill. I don’t remotely ever remember having it either. 

By that logic if rendering visuals requires more processing power , target capping and LoS restrictions might be more efficient ? maybe not i really don't know but just a thought anyways .

So let me ask you then - Haven't you noticed how in public missions some of the AoE warframes get almost all the kills , leaving barely anything to fight ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdexmsU1E48

also  late edit but it crossed my mind that the video might be usefull . Keep in mind this video does not prove my point , it's just a different perspective on the matter .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sliding attack atterax with maiming strike was the worst. people would just slide towards a wall over and over again and the whip would go through walls and hit enemies going around the corner. When I first saw it, I thought that looked boring. Then I realised people weren't playing that way. They were using macros to automate the game. I think anything that deals damage and goes through walls should not go through walls. Its only a matter of time before other players find other damaging abilities to abuse like this. Or at the very least make sure the damaging abilities have some kind of build up mechanic like Equinox's Maim requiring kills to be effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me preface this with my stance on this change: I understand the thoughts behind this change, I expected it to happen eventually, and I more or less agree with it. What I dislike is the implementation.

tl;dr: Khora is still playable, but very inconsistent and thus annoying and way less enjoyable to play.

 

Relevant stats my Khora has: I run 220% range, which means my Whipclaw hits in 10m AoE up to 22m away.

And last, but not least, ability description (from Wiki):

Quote

Khora cracks her whip toward the aiming reticle, creating an explosion up to 5 / 7 / 8 / 10 meters away in a 3 / 4 / 4 / 5 meters radius area around the first object or entity hit. All enemies within line of sight of the explosion receive 200 / 225 / 250 / 300 base damage, while enemies at the center are also disoriented briefly, causing them to be knocked back and ragdolled.

I highlighted the important part which I am building my feedback on: only line of sight from point of impact should matter.

With that out of the way, here's an Imgur gallery with my screenshots and comments after about a dozen runs as Khora in 3 different tilesets: https://imgur.com/a/UfOb89a. These screenshots illustrate the most glaring issue with current implementation: its inconsistency, probably caused by surface "roughness". I also found out that I often don't hit enemies within 10m range of point of impact, if I am standing somewhat between it and the enemy (i.e. hitting in front of me doesn't kill an enemy behind me, even if there should have been LoS to PoI). A lot of door and terrain related issues were shown by Brozime at the start of his Friday stream and were clipped by @[DE]Taylor.

Is Khora still playable? Yes. Strong? Yes. Enjoyable? Way less so. Will I still use her? Yes, but way less.

 

While more deeply play-testing this change I have came up with a few suggestions on how to improve the situation, making Whipclaw more consistent:

  • Some cases I posted seem to take Khora into account when calculating Line of Sight, this should be changed to rely solely on point of impact.
  • Lifting (normally) point of impact about 0.5m off the surface would help a lot in a number of the situations I posted.
  • Another issue I -and a number of other people- seem to have is Grineer doorframes, allowing Whipclaw to punch through them would help immensely (refer to aforementioned stream).

These 3 relatively simple changes should solve majority of the issues players have with this implementation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good feedback. I've made my own rant about LoS in Warframe in general but this hits the nail far better with this specific implementation. LoS isn't bad, how DE implements LoS is bad.

Unfortunately given the problems with LoS that predate Khora I'm not sure that making it only emanate from impact and raising the impact elevation will bring Whipclaw to the state it should be. Small objects have been a thorn in LoS's side since the beginning and there really needs to be something done to rectify it. While an explosion being blocked by a small barrier makes logical sense, it will always feel bad. The reason LoS exists is to stop us from killing enemies that we haven't engaged with, I would like to see that be the line taken on what counts as able to be hit rather than just enemies we can't see at the moment.

I don't have any idea how LoS is implemented in engine so take these suggestions with a grain of salt... but here are my armchair ideas.

  • Add a "LoS invisible" tag for objects that can be added to things that, in DE's opinion, would be okay for us to hit through. This is obviously a massive undertaking that would require going through every tile but to me it feels like the most full-proof solution.
  • Add "LoS punch-through" that lets AoEs go through objects if they are thin enough. This to me sounds like a recipe for spaghetti code but it could be a more systemic way to fix LoS breaking on small objects.

I'm not opposed to DE being more liberal with adding LoS to AoEs. In a perfect world I think most abilities should have some sort of LoS restriction, but LoS better be working great before such a thing should ever happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Gendalph said:

tl;dr: Khora is still playable, but very inconsistent and thus annoying and way less enjoyable to play.

100% the problem is inconsistency.  We already knew that LoS AoE is an inconsistent disaster from Primary Tombfinger.  The nerf was just a lazy and disrespectful punishment with little thought to the community.

Whipclaw's new inconsistency makes Khora too vulnerable, she needs percent damage reduction now that she is less consistent than Ember.  Entangle is too slow in multiplayer.  Strangedome has negative synergy with most weapons, more multiplayer anti-synergy.  Venari is straight useless in content that matters.

The right way to change Whipclaw would be to make it a seeking single target attack with chaining properties to hit a set number of additional nearby targets, with an additional effect of a non-LoS radial non-damaging AoE stagger.

 

5 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I'm not opposed to DE being more liberal with adding LoS to AoEs. In a perfect world I think most abilities should have some sort of LoS restriction, but LoS better be working great before such a thing should ever happen.

I'm very opposed.  If we're firing balls of elemental amalgamation that vaporize heavily armored and shielded enemies in single shots, why should we be thwarted by non-volatile pallets of cargo and stair treads?  It makes sense in a tactical shooter, but Warframe isn't a tactical shooter.  It doesn't belong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, PieExplosion said:

why should we be thwarted by non-volatile pallets of cargo and stair treads?

Did... did you miss the part of my comment where I think LoS should ignore such things? I agree, a cardboard box shouldn't block an ability, but a wall/ceiling should.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Did... did you miss the part of my comment where I think LoS should ignore such things? I agree, a cardboard box shouldn't block an ability, but a wall/ceiling should.

Yeah I did miss it.  This year's nerfs have gotten me quite upset.  It's almost as if whoever is in charge of gameplay changes doesn't give a **** and has zero respect for the players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you've got examples of the LoS reporting a false negative (a block LoS when there shouldn't be) consider adding them to my bug report regarding this issue:

DE's LoS checks are faulty when used for things like Whipclaw/Fireball/Tombfinger where the check originates from the surface of an object. Lifting the origin of the explosion off of surfaces should help, but there are still remaining issues. Small clutter objects and decorations block LoS, and changing that would require combing over every tileset in the game. Additionally, no matter where the check originates or what objects are pruned from the check, there will still be cases where the shape of the level geometry causes the check to fail even if it shouldn't, like on slopes or hills. Fixing LoS would be a very large undertaking, and while it might be helpful to have a strong LoS system it would still not be 100% reliable.

DE should remove the LoS for Whipclaw (and Fireball and Tombfinger) and replace it with a damage falloff like other explosive weapons. It fulfills the need for the nerf (Khora's crazy damage being spread all over the room and being able to kill effectively through walls), while leaving her peak damage intact (encouraging you to aim and use Ensnare more), and every enemy you hit would always take damage like you expect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone with a no-so-OP Khora build this update is trash. Her Whipclaw, can't even kill enemies above level 30 unless you spam it and waste a ton of energy. I usually love warframe but as a Khora main this both saddens me and disappoints me. I've read on other forums that you guys didn't even test this?? This is horrible and you should just revert her back to how she was, there are other OP warframes to worry about and Khora honestly didn't even need to be nerfed into trash like this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, SeredithWulfguire said:

As someone with a no-so-OP Khora build this update is trash. Her Whipclaw, can't even kill enemies above level 30 unless you spam it and waste a ton of energy.

Sounds like you don't even know what exactly was nerfed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...